New Program

Alaska · January 7th, 2003, 10:04

I would love some advise on ATA's new program. Here is an email from them that gives the basics. Let me know what you think.

Airline Training Academy is starting off the new year with a brand new program that promises to stand the airline training industry on it's ear. We're calling it the ATP Program. Our new program is zero time to Airline Transport Pilot without ever becoming a flight instructor!

******* 1500 hours! Zero time though Multi-Engine Airline Transport Pilot
******* Jet Trained by Airline Pilots in AirStage II
******* Program is price guaranteed
******* Airline interview is guaranteed

This new program meets or exceeds the requirements of every single regional airline in the country! The complete program is priced at $65,000 which includes all flight, ground, check rides, books, supplies, uniforms etc.... Everything but your cost of living. However, for students signing up in the month of January for classes starting no later than April, we are offering the entire program at $55,000. (That's approximately $37/flight hour!). Upon graduation you will be an Airline Transport Pilot jet trained by airline pilots!

Don't let this opportunity pass you by! Call now for all the details.

They say that you do stage I and II as regular (about 400 hrs) then they send you up in 152's and 172's (two pilots per plane) to just fly for another 1100 hrs. Approx. total time 18 months.
So what do you think?

pavelump · January 7th, 2003, 10:18

I think that if I had 1100 hrs in a 152 I would kill somebody.

But, on the bright side I'm sure that the airlines would find that time very valuable.

Dave

cimepilot · January 7th, 2003, 16:58

Airlines don't give a rat's a$$ about 1100 152/172 hours.

pavelump · January 7th, 2003, 17:17

[ QUOTE ]
Airlines don't give a rat's a$$ about 1100 152/172 hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm hoping that you got the implied sarcasm in my statement right?

Dave

Alaska · January 7th, 2003, 18:51

I'm not a cheerleader for ATA but I do try to look at things with an open mind. I know that FSI does a great job training pilots. I also believe that ATA may not have everything that FSI has but it does a good job training as well. ATA may have other problems but so does FSI. It is hard to talk trash about a school that gets its pilots to 1500 hrs at a cost of 55K. (assuming that ATA does what it says). As it stands a FSI student would still be on the CFI waiting list by the time an ATA student has his or her ATP certificate.
I know that 152 time is at the bottom of the flight food chain but having an ATP certificate is a big plus, and 1100 hrs of 152 is better than nothing.

Baronman · January 7th, 2003, 19:16

Two pilots per plane? Ummmm.....don't tell me, SAFETY PILOT?! Garbage.

Alaska · January 7th, 2003, 22:24

It is so easy to talk trash. What are the PROS AND CONS?

chunk75 · January 8th, 2003, 05:36

Alaska,

You asked for our opinions, which we gave, and then you tell us we aren't being fair and equitable. The truth is that an ATP with 1100 152/172 hours, half of which is safety pilot, isn't worth the paper it's printed on. It's a BS program designed to separate you and your money.

Could I be any clearer? ATA has lost any respect I dad for it. Kids not understanding the industry will think they're getting something valuable, when in fact, they really aren't.

Chunk

pure_IMC · January 8th, 2003, 05:38

Con- if it's a safety pilot situation, one guy has to wear the foggles to log pic.
Con- have you ever been in a 152 with 2 average size guys? I would barely be able to stand it for an hour, much less a cross country.

Pro-can't really think of one know, execpt maybe the price is right. Ill get back when I can think of something else.

pavelump · January 8th, 2003, 05:57

Hell, for that matter you could buy your own 152 and fly around for 1100 hours. I'm getting that David Clark headache just thinking about it. But at least you'd have a plane at the end of it.

Dave

Baronman · January 8th, 2003, 06:50

Additionally, (1100/2=550hrs) from what I've heard airlines/flight departments don't exactly get excited over hundreds of hours of safety pilot time. I heard that some even limit the amount of safety pilot time they include in your total time.
Really! If you want to fly a 152 around, go buy one for $18,000 and log all the PIC for yourself.

yankee_one · January 8th, 2003, 06:52

Does ATA have any interviews or such after to reach 1500 hours? No airline is going to touch someone 1500 hours unless they are from a program such as FSA's or Comair's and have a guaranteed interview set up already. Funny that ATA has no mention of any jobs at the end of the road.

AirborneMedic_ANGa10 · January 8th, 2003, 07:10

[ QUOTE ]
Does ATA have any interviews or such after to reach 1500 hours? No airline is going to touch someone 1500 hours unless they are from a program such as FSA's or Comair's and have a guaranteed interview set up already. Funny that ATA has no mention of any jobs at the end of the road.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not true. There are pilots getting hired at 1500/100 at the regionals. These are CFI's that aren't necessarily coming from academy 'bridge' programs, or guaranteed interview deals.

ready2fly · January 8th, 2003, 07:37

[ QUOTE ]
No airline is going to touch someone 1500 hours unless they are from a program such as FSA's or Comair's and have a guaranteed interview set up already.

[/ QUOTE ]
I see somebody from FSA's marketing department chimed in. That, or a student who bought the marketing song and dance lock, stock and barrell.

I generally don't post on FSA's sight, but I do monitor it for entertaiment purposes, but I'll make an exception here and say....

WRONG!!!

A CFI at the FBO where I earned my PP-ASEL (read: Part 61) - with somewhere in the neighborhood of 1400 to 1600 TT (I initially thought he had 1800, but was informed recently he had less) was given a Jan. 03 class date at either ACA or ASA (which one, I'm not 100% sure).

So, please do yourself and FSA (a fine program, I'm sure - no squabble there. Lot's of respect, much love) a favor and don't speak of which you have NO knowledge.

Nuff said.
R2F

Alaska · January 8th, 2003, 11:19

As I stated, I'm not a big cheerleader for ATA but I don't think that it hurts to "TRY" to look for the good in other programs. The thing that scares me the most about ATA is their credibility. However, I like that they will give a set price up front and they are trying to find new ways to get people from 0 - to a job.

Keep in mind that at most academies you will spend 50k+ and have 200-300 hrs. (before working as a cfi) ATA for that same price is giving you 1500 hrs. Some people may not want to work as a CFI or wait 6-12 months on a list. For these people this program may work. Am I going to do it? No, but this does not mean that it won't work for someone else. And it sure doesn't hurt to talk about the pros and cons.

As for a guaranteed interview, they say in the email that the program includes a guaranteed interview. What does this mean? Not a lot! Just like at Comair and FSI. In the end you have to earn a job, an interview alone means nothing if you can't fly a plane.

I appreciate that people are willing to post comments on this web page. However, it is a lot easier to value the comments of someone that can look at both side of the picture than someone who will only say how great their school is and how bad every other program is.

Baronman · January 8th, 2003, 12:13

You guys are still glossing over the fact a huge percentage of this time is saftey pilot. wake up people.

cimepilot · January 8th, 2003, 15:10

Pavelump,

I understood your sarcasm. I was just echoing your opinion.

Alaska,

You have got to be crazy and ignorant to think ATA's program is worth the money. Airlines, corporate, freight operators, it doesn't matter...1100 152/172 hours are worthless. Those planes don't even have a retractable gear or constant speed prop. Getting an ATP because you have 1100 hours in a slow, non-complex airplane is worthless to you and any employer that you send a resume to.

Alaska · January 8th, 2003, 15:30

I understand what you guys are saying, but look at the big picture. What I am trying to say is that for the same price or less in the same time period, (about 18 months) a student doing this program at ATA will have 1365 single and 135 multi hrs with an ATP cert. What this student will lack is a CFI rating. (something he may or may not need)

At this point if the student gets a cfi cert. then just like any other cfi they can look for a cfi job and hope to build higher quality time. They also have the ability to apply for a regional job. This is not something you can do waiting on a list to become a cfi. The difference will be the additional time they will already have obtained. Who knows they may even get a job and not have to work as a cfi.

Keep in mind, I do not think that this is the perfect path but it is interesting. By saying that this program is worth looking at is not saying that FSI is a bad place. It is a great academy! But just like ATA it is not the place for everyone.

CFICANFLY · January 8th, 2003, 16:19

[ QUOTE ]
You have got to be crazy and ignorant to think ATA's program is worth the money. Airlines, corporate, freight operators, it doesn't matter...1100 152/172 hours are worthless. Those planes don't even have a retractable gear or constant speed prop. Getting an ATP because you have 1100 hours in a slow, non-complex airplane is worthless to you and any employer that you send a resume to.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that 152/172 time is worthless, as you say. That's where the majority of time spent as a CFI is anyway, in a slow, non-complex airplane. The real question is how you spent that time, did you make it productive? Several people touched on that when questioning whether or not it's safety pilot time. 1100 hours be-bopping around Florida VFR isn't very quality time, but making cross-country trips across the country getting some good IFR would be very good (heck, I'd like to do that). As someone else said, you could buy your own 152 & do that. The benefit of buying your own aircraft is that you can sell it at the end & recoup some of your money. Bottomline is, if you don't want to CFI, it might be a good option, if you can really make the best of it (really long cross-countrys/hard IFR/mountain/etc.). And for the sake of full disclosure, I am an FSI grad & CFI (not at FSI & not on the waiting list either, going to A&P school).

'canfly

aviator · January 10th, 2003, 09:24

There are a couple issues to consider about all this time they are offering. It is a lot of flight time for the money and I don't think it's totally worthless but consider it from an potential employers point of view.
Airlines don't fill FO positions based on time in your logbook they are looking for quality expierence. One thing that will be considered is that you have gained expierence thru employment. i.e. exercising the privledges of your commercial ticket. This is not the same as touring around as a safety pilot in a 152. It also appears as if your coming out of the program with a single engine ATP. With one of these in your hand and 50 cents you may be able to buy a cup of coffee.

Alaska · January 10th, 2003, 10:30

Aviator,

Good Point! I hadn't thought about the single vs multi ATP Cert. Is there a single vs a multi ATP Cert.?

blee256 · January 10th, 2003, 13:56

Hey james,
Havent made a decision yet, huh? Well I just did my first lesson at a local FBO here in So cal. I flew for about an hour in a 152. I couldnt imagine spending 1500 hours in one.

this is the first I have heard about ATA's new program. I am not diggin it. If your going to fly 1500 hours might as well get the CFi and get paid for it instead of paying for it. i would say that the big plus about going to ATA was that it was shorter and no need for the CFI. But if its going to take you the same amount of time as any other school then is not worth it. Between ATA's new program and Comair's. I would choose Comair. And like we discussed ATA has a lot of promises and we werent sure if ATA could deliver them. Comair seems the better route in my opinion. and I always thought that comair was the safe way to go. ATA cost guarenteed it to be 55K. Comair suggests that their program is about 54K and joney said to have about a 10% cushion. A guy I met at FSI told me he got all his ratings minus CFI for 54K and that included housing and all his supplies. thats cheaper than ATA. And then you tack on another 5k or so for CFI, MEI, and CFII. and now your earning money. It isnt a lot but its better than paying 37 an hour to fly. He also told me that a lot of the students are slackers. So they dont have the motivation you might have. So if you are on the ball and fly everyday, 2, 3 times a day then you'll ge thru the program quicker. He finished is about 6 or 7 months. So i think you can too.

And my mentor said if he had to choose between a candidate who was an instructor and a person who paid to fly he would hire the one who had to sweat it out and teach rather than the guy who paid to fly. He is on the interview panel at an airline, so I kind of listen to him when it comes to things like this.

Also I hear about more pilots being hired from CAA than any other academy. but thats just me.

I think with the choices you have you cant go wrong if you have the dedication and drive. You seem very determined to get to the airlines and not dick around while your in school. so whichever school you go to, i am sure you'll come out with what you want. good luck.

-Brian

Alaska · January 10th, 2003, 14:08

Brian,

Thanks for the post. I'm not interested in ATA's program but I don't think that it hurts to gain more knowledge. I hope things are working out well for you at the local FBO. If all goes as I hope then I will start at Comair Jan. 30th. To all the rest of you good luck as well. I hope that all of us reach our end goal.

ERJ-135 · January 13th, 2003, 18:03

Most of the posters have missed the importance of the multi-engine/ATP Certificate that they would get if they do training at ATA. It is not a simple program of just time building. The students, enrolled in the ATP program, are still required to complete AirStage’s I and II, along with the time build for the ATP Certificate. The students will take an ATP-multi-engine check ride at the end of their completion of AirStage II. If new students have previous flight time and ratings, they are given credit for their efforts and the price is adjusted accordingly.

Lets look at the schools mentioned in this message thread.

Example ATA: ATA students now have the choice of training for the ATP-multi-engine certificate, enroll in AirStage’s I II & III, or AirStage’s I & II, or just AirStage II. It covers all of the potential requirements of the students and the requirements of the regional airlines that are now hiring ATA’s students. All ATA students are required to complete AirStage II. The students now have a wide choice of flight training programs that will fit their budget and time requirements. The ATP program will allow a student to apply at various regional airlines, not just the ones ATA has a “Bridge Program” with. ATA’s flight training programs now range from minimum 400 hours to 1500 hours, and will take from five to estimated 22 months, depending on the flight time prior to enrollment.

Example CA/FS: Students that go the traditional route at Comair or Flight Safety, receive the CFI’s that are required, teach for the next year or more (that’s based on getting hired at the academy in the first place), and apply with the regional airlines having 1200 tt and 100 multi. Limited choice for sure. The academies offer a modified bridge program, but most of you do not go this route.

Example ATA: Airline First Officer applicant with ATP-multi-engine, 1500 hrs tt/ 130 hrs multi, and completion of First Officer training at ATA.

Example CA/FS: Airline First Officer applicant from Comair or Flight Safety, with CFI’s, 1200 hrs tt/ 100 hrs multi.

Regional airlines will choose “A” over “CA/FS”, in all but a few examples, because applicant “A” holds an ATP-multi-engine with 1500 hours total time. The ATA student has completed their First Officer training program. The “A” applicant already has received the required certificate to hold the Captains seat. They just lack airline experience. Applicant “CA/FS” has a ways to go and still must pass the ATP check ride. This is an unknown quality of applicant “CA/FS”

Which school has the best flight-training program for the airlines? It all depends on the students needs and what they think is best for their own future career. Not all pilots are suitable for the CFI route. If time is of importance, due to age, family, etc., the ATA program seems like the best choice. Is it more advantageous to spend $55K and receive an ATP-multi-engine certificate, or to spend $55K at a traditional flight training academy and only receive the CFI certificate?

The debate goes on and will never be solved on message boards.

aviator · January 13th, 2003, 19:29

There are a lot of routes to the cockpit of an airline, my suggestion is do your research and pick the one that fits you the best. I have never been up to ATA to check them out, but I'm sure their programs work for some people.

I will clear up one small point, an instructor at FSI with 1200tt will most likely have around 900 hours of dual given and 500 hours of multi time due to the structure of the program. This is time gained thru employement, while applicant "A" has never held a flight job before. That changes the comparision to a certain degree.

January 7th, 2003, 10:04	#1
Alaska Newbie Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 19	New Program I would love some advise on ATA's new program. Here is an email from them that gives the basics. Let me know what you think. Airline Training Academy is starting off the new year with a brand new program that promises to stand the airline training industry on it's ear. We're calling it the ATP Program. Our new program is zero time to Airline Transport Pilot without ever becoming a flight instructor! ***** 1500 hours! Zero time though Multi-Engine Airline Transport Pilot *** Jet Trained by Airline Pilots in AirStage II *** Program is price guaranteed ***** Airline interview is guaranteed This new program meets or exceeds the requirements of every single regional airline in the country! The complete program is priced at $65,000 which includes all flight, ground, check rides, books, supplies, uniforms etc.... Everything but your cost of living. However, for students signing up in the month of January for classes starting no later than April, we are offering the entire program at $55,000. (That's approximately $37/flight hour!). Upon graduation you will be an Airline Transport Pilot jet trained by airline pilots! Don't let this opportunity pass you by! Call now for all the details. They say that you do stage I and II as regular (about 400 hrs) then they send you up in 152's and 172's (two pilots per plane) to just fly for another 1100 hrs. Approx. total time 18 months. So what do you think?

January 7th, 2003, 10:18	#2
pavelump Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 790	Re: New Program I think that if I had 1100 hrs in a 152 I would kill somebody. But, on the bright side I'm sure that the airlines would find that time very valuable. Dave

January 7th, 2003, 16:58	#3
cimepilot Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 231	Re: New Program Airlines don't give a rat's a$$ about 1100 152/172 hours.

January 7th, 2003, 17:17	#4
pavelump Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 790	Re: New Program [ QUOTE ] Airlines don't give a rat's a$$ about 1100 152/172 hours. [/ QUOTE ] I'm hoping that you got the implied sarcasm in my statement right? Dave

January 7th, 2003, 18:51	#5
Alaska Newbie Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 19	Re: New Program I'm not a cheerleader for ATA but I do try to look at things with an open mind. I know that FSI does a great job training pilots. I also believe that ATA may not have everything that FSI has but it does a good job training as well. ATA may have other problems but so does FSI. It is hard to talk trash about a school that gets its pilots to 1500 hrs at a cost of 55K. (assuming that ATA does what it says). As it stands a FSI student would still be on the CFI waiting list by the time an ATA student has his or her ATP certificate. I know that 152 time is at the bottom of the flight food chain but having an ATP certificate is a big plus, and 1100 hrs of 152 is better than nothing.

January 7th, 2003, 19:16	#6
Baronman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NEWARK Posts: 1,038	Re: New Program Two pilots per plane? Ummmm.....don't tell me, SAFETY PILOT?! Garbage.

January 7th, 2003, 22:24	#7
Alaska Newbie Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 19	Re: New Program It is so easy to talk trash. What are the PROS AND CONS?

January 8th, 2003, 05:36	#8
chunk75 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: FL Posts: 922	Re: New Program Alaska, You asked for our opinions, which we gave, and then you tell us we aren't being fair and equitable. The truth is that an ATP with 1100 152/172 hours, half of which is safety pilot, isn't worth the paper it's printed on. It's a BS program designed to separate you and your money. Could I be any clearer? ATA has lost any respect I dad for it. Kids not understanding the industry will think they're getting something valuable, when in fact, they really aren't. Chunk

January 8th, 2003, 05:38	#9
pure_IMC Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Vero Beach, FL Posts: 181	Re: New Program Con- if it's a safety pilot situation, one guy has to wear the foggles to log pic. Con- have you ever been in a 152 with 2 average size guys? I would barely be able to stand it for an hour, much less a cross country. Pro-can't really think of one know, execpt maybe the price is right. Ill get back when I can think of something else.

January 8th, 2003, 05:57	#10
pavelump Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 790	Re: New Program Hell, for that matter you could buy your own 152 and fly around for 1100 hours. I'm getting that David Clark headache just thinking about it. But at least you'd have a plane at the end of it. Dave

January 8th, 2003, 06:50	#11
Baronman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NEWARK Posts: 1,038	Re: New Program Additionally, (1100/2=550hrs) from what I've heard airlines/flight departments don't exactly get excited over hundreds of hours of safety pilot time. I heard that some even limit the amount of safety pilot time they include in your total time. Really! If you want to fly a 152 around, go buy one for $18,000 and log all the PIC for yourself.

January 8th, 2003, 06:52	#12
yankee_one Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Deltona, Florida Posts: 286	Re: New Program Does ATA have any interviews or such after to reach 1500 hours? No airline is going to touch someone 1500 hours unless they are from a program such as FSA's or Comair's and have a guaranteed interview set up already. Funny that ATA has no mention of any jobs at the end of the road.

January 8th, 2003, 07:10	#13
AirborneMedic_ANGa10 Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 213	Re: New Program [ QUOTE ] Does ATA have any interviews or such after to reach 1500 hours? No airline is going to touch someone 1500 hours unless they are from a program such as FSA's or Comair's and have a guaranteed interview set up already. Funny that ATA has no mention of any jobs at the end of the road. [/ QUOTE ] That's not true. There are pilots getting hired at 1500/100 at the regionals. These are CFI's that aren't necessarily coming from academy 'bridge' programs, or guaranteed interview deals.

January 8th, 2003, 07:37	#14
ready2fly Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 7,113	Re: New Program [ QUOTE ] No airline is going to touch someone 1500 hours unless they are from a program such as FSA's or Comair's and have a guaranteed interview set up already. [/ QUOTE ] I see somebody from FSA's marketing department chimed in. That, or a student who bought the marketing song and dance lock, stock and barrell. I generally don't post on FSA's sight, but I do monitor it for entertaiment purposes, but I'll make an exception here and say.... WRONG!!! A CFI at the FBO where I earned my PP-ASEL (read: Part 61) - with somewhere in the neighborhood of 1400 to 1600 TT (I initially thought he had 1800, but was informed recently he had less) was given a Jan. 03 class date at either ACA or ASA (which one, I'm not 100% sure). So, please do yourself and FSA (a fine program, I'm sure - no squabble there. Lot's of respect, much love) a favor and don't speak of which you have NO knowledge. Nuff said. R2F

January 8th, 2003, 11:19	#15
Alaska Newbie Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 19	Re: New Program As I stated, I'm not a big cheerleader for ATA but I don't think that it hurts to "TRY" to look for the good in other programs. The thing that scares me the most about ATA is their credibility. However, I like that they will give a set price up front and they are trying to find new ways to get people from 0 - to a job. Keep in mind that at most academies you will spend 50k+ and have 200-300 hrs. (before working as a cfi) ATA for that same price is giving you 1500 hrs. Some people may not want to work as a CFI or wait 6-12 months on a list. For these people this program may work. Am I going to do it? No, but this does not mean that it won't work for someone else. And it sure doesn't hurt to talk about the pros and cons. As for a guaranteed interview, they say in the email that the program includes a guaranteed interview. What does this mean? Not a lot! Just like at Comair and FSI. In the end you have to earn a job, an interview alone means nothing if you can't fly a plane. I appreciate that people are willing to post comments on this web page. However, it is a lot easier to value the comments of someone that can look at both side of the picture than someone who will only say how great their school is and how bad every other program is.

January 8th, 2003, 12:13	#16
Baronman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NEWARK Posts: 1,038	Re: New Program You guys are still glossing over the fact a huge percentage of this time is saftey pilot. wake up people.

January 8th, 2003, 15:10	#17
cimepilot Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 231	Re: New Program Pavelump, I understood your sarcasm. I was just echoing your opinion. Alaska, You have got to be crazy and ignorant to think ATA's program is worth the money. Airlines, corporate, freight operators, it doesn't matter...1100 152/172 hours are worthless. Those planes don't even have a retractable gear or constant speed prop. Getting an ATP because you have 1100 hours in a slow, non-complex airplane is worthless to you and any employer that you send a resume to.

January 8th, 2003, 15:30	#18
Alaska Newbie Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 19	Re: New Program I understand what you guys are saying, but look at the big picture. What I am trying to say is that for the same price or less in the same time period, (about 18 months) a student doing this program at ATA will have 1365 single and 135 multi hrs with an ATP cert. What this student will lack is a CFI rating. (something he may or may not need) At this point if the student gets a cfi cert. then just like any other cfi they can look for a cfi job and hope to build higher quality time. They also have the ability to apply for a regional job. This is not something you can do waiting on a list to become a cfi. The difference will be the additional time they will already have obtained. Who knows they may even get a job and not have to work as a cfi. Keep in mind, I do not think that this is the perfect path but it is interesting. By saying that this program is worth looking at is not saying that FSI is a bad place. It is a great academy! But just like ATA it is not the place for everyone.

January 8th, 2003, 16:19	#19
CFICANFLY Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: ANP Posts: 64	Re: New Program [ QUOTE ] You have got to be crazy and ignorant to think ATA's program is worth the money. Airlines, corporate, freight operators, it doesn't matter...1100 152/172 hours are worthless. Those planes don't even have a retractable gear or constant speed prop. Getting an ATP because you have 1100 hours in a slow, non-complex airplane is worthless to you and any employer that you send a resume to. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think that 152/172 time is worthless, as you say. That's where the majority of time spent as a CFI is anyway, in a slow, non-complex airplane. The real question is how you spent that time, did you make it productive? Several people touched on that when questioning whether or not it's safety pilot time. 1100 hours be-bopping around Florida VFR isn't very quality time, but making cross-country trips across the country getting some good IFR would be very good (heck, I'd like to do that). As someone else said, you could buy your own 152 & do that. The benefit of buying your own aircraft is that you can sell it at the end & recoup some of your money. Bottomline is, if you don't want to CFI, it might be a good option, if you can really make the best of it (really long cross-countrys/hard IFR/mountain/etc.). And for the sake of full disclosure, I am an FSI grad & CFI (not at FSI & not on the waiting list either, going to A&P school). 'canfly

January 10th, 2003, 09:24	#20
aviator Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 385	Re: New Program There are a couple issues to consider about all this time they are offering. It is a lot of flight time for the money and I don't think it's totally worthless but consider it from an potential employers point of view. Airlines don't fill FO positions based on time in your logbook they are looking for quality expierence. One thing that will be considered is that you have gained expierence thru employment. i.e. exercising the privledges of your commercial ticket. This is not the same as touring around as a safety pilot in a 152. It also appears as if your coming out of the program with a single engine ATP. With one of these in your hand and 50 cents you may be able to buy a cup of coffee.

January 10th, 2003, 10:30	#21
Alaska Newbie Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 19	Re: New Program Aviator, Good Point! I hadn't thought about the single vs multi ATP Cert. Is there a single vs a multi ATP Cert.?

January 10th, 2003, 13:56	#22
blee256 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: lower canada Posts: 1,611	Re: New Program Hey james, Havent made a decision yet, huh? Well I just did my first lesson at a local FBO here in So cal. I flew for about an hour in a 152. I couldnt imagine spending 1500 hours in one. this is the first I have heard about ATA's new program. I am not diggin it. If your going to fly 1500 hours might as well get the CFi and get paid for it instead of paying for it. i would say that the big plus about going to ATA was that it was shorter and no need for the CFI. But if its going to take you the same amount of time as any other school then is not worth it. Between ATA's new program and Comair's. I would choose Comair. And like we discussed ATA has a lot of promises and we werent sure if ATA could deliver them. Comair seems the better route in my opinion. and I always thought that comair was the safe way to go. ATA cost guarenteed it to be 55K. Comair suggests that their program is about 54K and joney said to have about a 10% cushion. A guy I met at FSI told me he got all his ratings minus CFI for 54K and that included housing and all his supplies. thats cheaper than ATA. And then you tack on another 5k or so for CFI, MEI, and CFII. and now your earning money. It isnt a lot but its better than paying 37 an hour to fly. He also told me that a lot of the students are slackers. So they dont have the motivation you might have. So if you are on the ball and fly everyday, 2, 3 times a day then you'll ge thru the program quicker. He finished is about 6 or 7 months. So i think you can too. And my mentor said if he had to choose between a candidate who was an instructor and a person who paid to fly he would hire the one who had to sweat it out and teach rather than the guy who paid to fly. He is on the interview panel at an airline, so I kind of listen to him when it comes to things like this. Also I hear about more pilots being hired from CAA than any other academy. but thats just me. I think with the choices you have you cant go wrong if you have the dedication and drive. You seem very determined to get to the airlines and not dick around while your in school. so whichever school you go to, i am sure you'll come out with what you want. good luck. -Brian

January 10th, 2003, 14:08	#23
Alaska Newbie Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 19	Re: New Program Brian, Thanks for the post. I'm not interested in ATA's program but I don't think that it hurts to gain more knowledge. I hope things are working out well for you at the local FBO. If all goes as I hope then I will start at Comair Jan. 30th. To all the rest of you good luck as well. I hope that all of us reach our end goal.

January 13th, 2003, 18:03	#24
ERJ-135 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: USA Posts: 277	Re: New Program Most of the posters have missed the importance of the multi-engine/ATP Certificate that they would get if they do training at ATA. It is not a simple program of just time building. The students, enrolled in the ATP program, are still required to complete AirStage’s I and II, along with the time build for the ATP Certificate. The students will take an ATP-multi-engine check ride at the end of their completion of AirStage II. If new students have previous flight time and ratings, they are given credit for their efforts and the price is adjusted accordingly. Lets look at the schools mentioned in this message thread. Example ATA: ATA students now have the choice of training for the ATP-multi-engine certificate, enroll in AirStage’s I II & III, or AirStage’s I & II, or just AirStage II. It covers all of the potential requirements of the students and the requirements of the regional airlines that are now hiring ATA’s students. All ATA students are required to complete AirStage II. The students now have a wide choice of flight training programs that will fit their budget and time requirements. The ATP program will allow a student to apply at various regional airlines, not just the ones ATA has a “Bridge Program” with. ATA’s flight training programs now range from minimum 400 hours to 1500 hours, and will take from five to estimated 22 months, depending on the flight time prior to enrollment. Example CA/FS: Students that go the traditional route at Comair or Flight Safety, receive the CFI’s that are required, teach for the next year or more (that’s based on getting hired at the academy in the first place), and apply with the regional airlines having 1200 tt and 100 multi. Limited choice for sure. The academies offer a modified bridge program, but most of you do not go this route. Example ATA: Airline First Officer applicant with ATP-multi-engine, 1500 hrs tt/ 130 hrs multi, and completion of First Officer training at ATA. Example CA/FS: Airline First Officer applicant from Comair or Flight Safety, with CFI’s, 1200 hrs tt/ 100 hrs multi. Regional airlines will choose “A” over “CA/FS”, in all but a few examples, because applicant “A” holds an ATP-multi-engine with 1500 hours total time. The ATA student has completed their First Officer training program. The “A” applicant already has received the required certificate to hold the Captains seat. They just lack airline experience. Applicant “CA/FS” has a ways to go and still must pass the ATP check ride. This is an unknown quality of applicant “CA/FS” Which school has the best flight-training program for the airlines? It all depends on the students needs and what they think is best for their own future career. Not all pilots are suitable for the CFI route. If time is of importance, due to age, family, etc., the ATA program seems like the best choice. Is it more advantageous to spend $55K and receive an ATP-multi-engine certificate, or to spend $55K at a traditional flight training academy and only receive the CFI certificate? The debate goes on and will never be solved on message boards.

January 13th, 2003, 19:29	#25
aviator Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 385	Re: New Program There are a lot of routes to the cockpit of an airline, my suggestion is do your research and pick the one that fits you the best. I have never been up to ATA to check them out, but I'm sure their programs work for some people. I will clear up one small point, an instructor at FSI with 1200tt will most likely have around 900 hours of dual given and 500 hours of multi time due to the structure of the program. This is time gained thru employement, while applicant "A" has never held a flight job before. That changes the comparision to a certain degree.

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