New Program

[Alaska]

This is getting harder every day!!!!!!!!!!!!! As of this morning I was filling out the paper work for Comair. Then I got a phone call from ATA. Steve Drumond called to tell me that last Friday SkyWest signed on to their new 1500 atp program. This changes things for me a lot because SkyWest is my first choice as a regional. I live in Utah, and want to return, and they are based here. I still have concerns about ATA but this has given ATA a big plus. I called a friend at SkyWest headquarters in St. George, Utah and he is going to talk to Bill Boise and get the inside info for me. Also, the ATP cert. is a multi-ATP certificate.
What do all of you think????

[AirborneMedic_ANGa10]

Not sure the details of the program, but I will tell you that Skywest just hired 7 CFI's from UVSC at near minimums. UVSC does not have any formal agreements with anybody, including Skywest.

[Alaska]

The final verdict!

Honest information is SOOOO important. It is also too bad that in life who you know is so important. My friend at SkyWest was able to connect me with the director of flight standards at S.W.. He was very open and honest and a huge help.

I am not one to bash people or schools but I have ruled ATA out for good!

The Director of Flight Standards is the person that ATA had spoken with about their "agreement to interview ATA students" he was able to give me his view of the verbal conversation that he and ATA had and without going into details it seems that the two are on different pages.

Although I don't like to bash or talk trash about schools/academies here I go. When a school constantly lies/misleads potential students it is wrong and dishonest.
We are not talking about where to go for scout camp or on vacation. We are talking about peoples lives, careers, dreams, and a lot of money. I realize that all academies try to make themselves look good but at some point it goes past looking good and becomes fraud. I believe people/schools know when they have crossed this line but in order to make a buck they will tell you whatever you want to here.

I realize that for many people ATA is the right place for them. I truly wish them the best. I hope that ATA can give them everything it has promised. As for me, all along I have been worried about their credibility and in my mind they continue to comfirm this concern.

[pscraig]

How did this discussion end up in the FlightSafety forum? Seems like a topic for the ATA forum.

[Doug Taylor]

Umm, I think you missed the ATA forum by a few clicks there, Alaska!

[chunk75]

Though not directly about FSI, I think it is a good example of why I'm here and not there....

Chunk

[Alaska]

How did this discussion end up in the FlightSafety forum? Seems like a topic for the ATA forum.
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Umm, I think you missed the ATA forum by a few clicks there, Alaska!
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Think about it, why would I ask for advise about ATA in FSI's or any other academies forum?

[ERJ-135]

Question for Alaska

The next time you are in the market to buy a car, will you call the car’s maker and ask to speak with the President of production to find out how the car is made and whether the ads for the car are true or not?

Why would you call the Director of Flight Standards, at an airline, and ask whether they have and agreement with one of the flight schools? Did you ever consider that this person is not the final decision maker? Did you consider he was not involved in the decision process and was a little ticked off?

I would fault ATA for early release of this information if it were not on paper. Perhaps it was still in the talking stages and was released prematurely. Looking at the requirements for SkyWest pilot applicants, all that is needed is 1,000 hours total flight time, 100 hours multi-engine time, 100 instrument flight time. It seems that the new ATP-multi-engine program at ATA more than qualifies their students for SkyWest, and that no agreement is necessary between the school and SkyWest. Did you consider this before you made the call? How do you know that Bill Boise is the only person that ATA talked with?

If you look at the ads for most of the flight schools, airlines that have hired students from that school are usually listed with their logo. This does not mean that the school has a contract or working agreement with that airline. All it means is the school got permission to list the airlines on the schools web site.

It is not in the student’s best interest to call every airline and ask whether they have an agreement with a particular flight school. All a perspective student has to do is ask for references of former students that fly for that airline. Another way is to ask for a copy of the agreement that the school has with that airline. Remember, the school will not necessarily be able to provided a list of students flying with a particular airline unless that student has given permission.

If you want to start your pilot career at SkyWest, it seems like ATA has the right program. Their flight training program will allow you to apply at SkyWest with the required flight hours and advanced airline procedure training. If you ask Flight Safety and Comair, they probably will tell you they have former students flying with SkyWest. Do you see SkyWest listed in their ads?

[Alaska]

ERJ-135
It helps to understand the entire story and I will leave it at that.

Just for the record. Bill Boise asked me to call him and he was as nice and helpful as could be.

And yes, it helps to have as much info as possible before you spend $55K dollars. Maybe you don't like to know the truth but I do!

[ERJ-135]

Alaska

Please explain: " It helps to understand the entire story and I will leave it at that."(Alaska)

What is the entire story? We are all waiting to hear your side of the conversation. You brought it up, so lets all the readers in on your little secret.

This thread should have started in the ATA thread instead of the Flight Safety Academy thread. I'm beginning to wonder if you work for Flight Safety.

[Alaska]

ERJ,
Good luck to you and ATA.

I posted here because I wanted to get as much diverse input as possible. ATA has a similiar post and it had five different people respond. By posting at FSI I was able to get a larger info base from people with diverse backgrounds and knowledge. (fifteen different people posted.) If you wanted to learn as much as you could would you rather talk to 5 people or 15?

[CLR4ILS]

It sounds a little like ERJ-135 works for ATA. Having a hard time drumming up students are ya?

Another opinion on ATA's program:
IF... the time building to 1500 TT was all X-country in IMC or simulated IMC (hood) and had some kind of LOFT program tied to it, it would not be that bad (other than flying the 152). Without a LOFT program tied to it with set procedures and CRM, it is worthless. Two guy's punching holes in the sky without an objective is a waste of money. The safety pilot thing is another issue.

As for ERJ-135 comparing ATA to Flight Safety, nice try.... There is no comparison. I would gladly choose Flight Safety's program and instruct to 1200TT/600ME finishing up being about as proficient as one can be with that amount of time over any program ATA has to offer. Here's a scenario for you. Two pilots interview with say SKYWEST. Flight Safety's candidate has 1200/600/CFI/II/MEI VS ATA's candidate with 1500/135 and ATP. Who do think will land the job? I will put my money on Safety. The training and experience you receive at FSA as a student, an instructor, and in the ASA program cannot be touched by ATA. Hey, didn't 20 or so of ATA's instructors pack up and come over to Flight Safety a year ago looking for a job? Seems like I heard that somewhere. Hmmm.

Alaska,
Why haven't you looked at Flight Safety? If you completed the CIME program followed by the ASA program here you would be a lot better off for about the same amount of money. Also, if ATA told you that Skywest was ON BOARD with them and they are not, I wouldn't be happy either. I haven't heard of Skywest getting on board with anyone come to think of it. Has anyone else? Good luck with your decision. ILS

[chunk75]

[ QUOTE ]
Two pilots interview with say SKYWEST. Flight Safety's candidate has 1200/600/CFI/II/MEI VS ATA's candidate with 1500/135 and ATP. Who do think will land the job? I will put my money on Safety.


[/ QUOTE ]

Heck, I think any CFI with those times would smoke the ATP with the 152 type rating. It's like having 10,000 hours flying the same pipeline in VFR only conditions. Okay, you learned something in your first 500 hours...what did you learn in the last 9500?

Chunk

[Alaska]

CLR4ILS,
I have looked into FSI and I think that it has a great program. The multi time is awesome and the training is solid. A large factor for me is time. If FSI didn't have such a long waiting list to become a CFI I would strongly look at attending FSI. It appears to me that 0-1200 hrs will take about 32 months when you factor in the wait. I'm not saying that 32 months is all that bad but for my own needs I need to get done as fast as possible. I expect to be at Comair for about 24 months 0-1000 hrs.

[chunk75]

Comair will make you an instructor right away, but kick you out on your ear after 800 dual given. At that point you'll only have about 100 multi. Then what? Ya gonna get a regional job with those times? Highly unlikely.

If you don't believe me on those numbers...go ask them. I got those numbers from a CFI when I was there.

Chunk

[yankee_one]

Chunk,
As a matter of fact, you are right. Generally after a student completes 800 hour of dual given at CAA, they are released for their interview. Lately, within a week of the interview, they are in class. What that amounts to is that in about a month’s time from the day they finish their 800 hours Dual-Given, they are in class. Honestly, would you really want to stick around as a Flight Instructor when you could be a FO instead?

“Don’t believe me on those numbers…go ask them.”
Airline Qualifications Dept. 1-888-886-1104

[ERJ-135]

CLR4ILS!

Your Words:
"Another opinion on ATA's program:
IF... the time building to 1500 TT was all X-country in IMC or simulated IMC (hood) and had some kind of LOFT program tied to it, it would not be that bad (other than flying the 152). Without a LOFT program tied to it with set procedures and CRM, it is worthless. Two guy's punching holes in the sky without an objective is a waste of money. The safety pilot thing is another issue."

My response:
Time building hours are 1100, under the hood, and the rest of the hours, to qualify for the ATP-multi-engine certificate, will be logged during flight training in AirStages I & II.

Your words:
"Hey, didn't 20 or so of ATA's instructors pack up and come over to Flight Safety a year ago looking for a job? Seems like I heard that somewhere. Hmmm."

My response:
Never happened. Just another rumor that is not backed up with any valid facts.

Your words:
"The safety pilot thing is another issue."

My response:
It is in the FAR's and the airlines accept it. The same could be said of a CFI that logs PIC time after a student has a Private Certificate. It's in the FAR's.

Both programs give excellent flight training. You have your ideas of what makes a program valuable, and I have mine.

[CLR4ILS]

I guess the question I have is, does the time building portion of the program have LOFT/CRM attached to the sylabus? I am talking about a pilot fly/pilot no fly program using line operation procedures specific to say, Skywest for instance. If you are simply sending two people on basic IFR x-countries of their choice without practicing line procedures it is ALMOST pointless. So does the program incorporate line procedures? Inquiring minds want to know. Flight Safety has a great line program attached to their ASA training. Of course, as you know Flight Safety is known best for setting the standards for everyone else to follow. ILS

[ananoman]

If times were good, this program might be an option, but the bottom line is this is not good time. It is no different than those who pay to fly SIC for Part 135 ops that can fly single pilot with an auto pilot authorization. Sure you sat there and put the gear up and down, and it is recognized by the FAR's, but so what? A few years ago when ConEX was hiring CFI's with 600 hrs. this might have gotten you a job, now I am not convinced. Even then the people I knew who were hired were asked if they were currently instructing in a Multi and had several hundred hours of Multi time.

When you are a CFI and log PIC with a rated student it is different than being a safety pilot. You are being paid as a commercial pilot. You are also providing instruction for a student and are in operational control of the aircraft. Many times you will be flying with instrument students who are logging PIC, but who are not really qualified to be acting PIC of the aircraft (on an IFR flight plan when they have no instrument rating, etc). There are alot of loop holes to log time, but the airlines do not rate all time equally. It is possible to have a CFI in the back seat of a plane and two students in the front and have all 3 log PIC. Is this legal, yes it is. If you do not believe me read the FAR's (CFI has operational control, one student under the hood, one as safety pilot). Is this time worth anything? I do not think so. I think you will be paying alot for a certificate that you are not really qualified to have, and you will have a hard time getting hired anywhere. And you will not have your CFI to fall back on.

Safety pilot time can be a legitimate way to build several hundred hours of CC time, or to pad your Multi, but to have half of your total time be safety pilot is not very wise, in my opinion. As other posters have said, who would you hire? The CFI who was being paid for their time and who was really the PIC, or someone who spent half their time looking out the window making sure the airplane didn't hit anything. The CFI will also have a much better understanding of the FAR's, aerodynamics, etc. and will probably do better in an airline interview as well. You really have to have an understanding of a subject to teach it well.

If you are dying to get your ATP in a hurry without being a CFI, it cost about $30 an hour to operate a 150/152. Go buy one and fly it.

[aviator]

If you really want to "build time" cheaply I suggest a packet of BIC ballpoints. They retail for about $2 and one pack should be sufficient to put 1500 hours in your logbook. Building quality expierence is going to take a little more effort....

-Ref. Avbug- sorry for stealing your material.

[farwellbooth]

[ QUOTE ]
Generally after a student completes 800 hour of dual given at CAA, they are released for their interview. Lately, within a week of the interview, they are in class.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yankee One, I'm not sure what your affiliation is with Comair but this info. is very deceitful to those who are trying to succeed in this wacky industry. "Released for their inverview" great word-smithing for "Few airlines are hiring now, we create more cfi's than anyone therefore you're competing with A LOT of people for VERY FEW spots and the majority of you who don't make it to class are on the street" I've heard the 97% quote from 2000 data... and that Comair is airlined owned and and and...

If you're a student I wish you luck. If you're not I beg potential students to research, talk to people, read between the lines, and go see the schools.

[chunk75]

I think we need some avbug around here sometimes...I don't always agree with that guy, but I certainly respect him.

Chunk