hopefully not one of yours

[piston]

Earlier this morning I heard about a DVT based seminole that crashed near san diego. I'm not sure if this was a Pan Am plane or not, but if it was I send my condolences. web page

[Lima_Charlie]

Unfortunately, yes it was one of ours. I don't know all of the details, but it is a tragic situation. Please put the families of both students in your prayers.

LC

[piston]

Very tragic indeed.

[Screaming_Emu]

Sorry to hear about your guys' loss. Hope they're able to figure out what went wrong and that everybody there keeps flyin. Fly safe.

[project7]

So pan am and westwind each lost a seminole on the same day? (check westwind forum)

[piston]

[ QUOTE ]
So pan am and westwind each lost a seminole on the same day? (check westwind forum)

[/ QUOTE ]


Pan Am lost one late monday night, and Westwind lost one earlier this morning.

[Tired]

I was told that the Pan Am aircraft was 304PA. Does anyone know the number of the Westwind seminole?

Also, any word yet on what happened on the freq that caused the confusion? I'm guessing atleast one other Pan Am aircraft was talking to the same controller.

[clrair]

this isn't good for panam, if you remember not to long ago we lost an instructor and a student here in ft. pierce.

staff is really nervous about NTSB closing the doors

[piston]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone know the number of the Westwind seminole?

[/ QUOTE ]

4144C....the purple one.

[Lima_Charlie]

[ QUOTE ]
I was told that the Pan Am aircraft was 304PA. Does anyone know the number of the Westwind seminole?

Also, any word yet on what happened on the freq that caused the confusion? I'm guessing atleast one other Pan Am aircraft was talking to the same controller.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing official has been released, but it sounds like 304PA might have taken a descent clearance from ATC when it was meant for 434PA. But this completely unofficial... You know how the rumor mill works. The controller might have shortened the call signs to '4PA, thus causing some of the confusion...

[Lima_Charlie]

[ QUOTE ]
this isn't good for panam, if you remember not to long ago we lost an instructor and a student here in ft. pierce.

staff is really nervous about NTSB closing the doors

[/ QUOTE ]

That would SUCK!!! I have a hard time believing that the NTSB would shut PA down, especially if the accidents had nothing to do w/ mechanical problems and what not. I could see it if the school was found to be teaching sub-standard instrument practices or somehow getting people through the checkride examinations w/o the proper skills. I know that is not the case at DVT, as the stagechecks we go through just to get to the checkride are quite difficult. IMHO, of course.

LC

[Wolverine]

We'll have to wait for the final NTSB report, but it sounds like a case of similar N-numbers and a chain of events that continued unbroken.

From the best we can infer, this is what happened...

There were 4 Seminoles going to Carlsbad. 304PA was entrail of 434PA for some number of miles - 5? 10? 20? The controller, meaning for 434PA to descend, said "4PA, Descend to 5,200." 304PA answered the call.

Immediately after there was some radio chatter while 434PA was trying to get clarification on who the call was for. When 434PA got through it had been several minutes and several clearances since the descent clearance was given. 434PA asked, "Was that clearance meant for 434PA?" The controller answered, "No, 304PA."

They missed the Julian VOR, which sit atop a 5,560' MSL mountain, by about 500' laterally. It appears they hit the top of a tree. If they had been just a few feet higher, they may have barely missed the mountain without knowing it, but who knows for sure.

It was a chain events that was going wrong, but no one recognized that until it was too late. They had issues with the confusing N-numbers the previous night also.

They are very much missed at PanAm. There is a very solemn atmosphere at PanAm. Everyone is thinking of them and their families.

[project7]

Does anyone know if this was a route flight? (i.e., no instructor on board)

[clrair]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this isn't good for panam, if you remember not to long ago we lost an instructor and a student here in ft. pierce.

staff is really nervous about NTSB closing the doors

[/ QUOTE ]

That would SUCK!!! I have a hard time believing that the NTSB would shut PA down, especially if the accidents had nothing to do w/ mechanical problems and what not. I could see it if the school was found to be teaching sub-standard instrument practices or somehow getting people through the checkride examinations w/o the proper skills. I know that is not the case at DVT, as the stagechecks we go through just to get to the checkride are quite difficult. IMHO, of course.

from what happended in the crash here, afew months ago, it was pilot error, instuctor error. that's why they were concerned.

.



LC

[/ QUOTE ]from what happended in the crash here, afew months ago, it was pilot error, instuctor error. that's why they were concerned.

from what i "HEARD" today, is that those route flyers were told to descend, ATC put them into the side of a mountain, in that case NTSB wouldn't do a thing.

it sucks, if that is the case. when your IMC, your life is in there hands...maybe a MEA would've helped but, when i'm IFR i don't look at them, but then again i'm in florida, and it's flat

[cime_sp]

It can be very confusing when there is somebody else out there with a similiar tail number. I do not want to speculate but if this is the case, it is very unfortunate.

There are a lot of schools out there that have their own N-numbers for their aircraft and it makes things extremely difficult for ATC, the pilots of those aircraft, and the other traffic who are trying to keep a good mental picture of whats going on. Where I teach now there is a school, Dowling College, that has N###DC on all of their planes and it makes it extremely confusing when they are all on the frequency.

A good example is when you are in the pattern and trying to communicate with a 138DC, a 183DC, a 308DC, a 300DC among others, and they are making traffic calls around an uncontrolled field. It makes it hard to keep track of who is where. Farmingdale State also has about 10-15 N###LH's and American Flyers has about the same numbers of N###AF's and we all share the same airspace. It can get pretty hairy.

I remember at FSI we had the same confusions with some of the PanAm plans at places like OBE, X26, X59, PHK, and even some of the controlled fields and practice areas.


I mean no negativity with my statements but I do wish some schools would reconsider their tail number policies. My condolences go out to all of those involved in the recent events, current PanAm students, and wish all of us safe flying in the future.

[Wolverine]

Yes, it was a route flight. They were both students.

[250blue]

[/ QUOTE ]maybe a MEA would've helped but, when i'm IFR i don't look at them, but then again i'm in florida, and it's flat

[/ QUOTE ]

Even with an MEA, the controllers may have lower MVA's (Minimum Vectoring Altitudes), for which you have no idea what and where they are.

[project7]

[ QUOTE ]
for which you have no idea what and where they are

[/ QUOTE ]
If you ask, they'll tell you what it is. Most of us make the mistake of placing too much trust in controllers. Controllers do give people clearances into mountains and thunderstorms and other nasty stuff. Your safety is never in their hands, it's only in your own.

[Tired]

[ QUOTE ]
staff is really nervous about NTSB closing the doors.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, the NTSB has no reglatory authority. So they cannot shut the doors. I wouldn't worry about the FAA closing the school either.

[ QUOTE ]
. Controllers do give people clearances into mountains and thunderstorms and other nasty stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? The first duty of a controller is basically separating aircraft from hazards. This duty is the controller's ONLY primary duty, all others are secondary. I highly doubt a controller has sent you, or anyone else you know into a mountain. Neither will you find a whole bunch of accidents in the NTSB database were ATC was at fault.

I am hoping the NTSB report will explain why the fail-safes failed in this case. The first fail safe would be the controller receiving a proper read back. However, even if there was some confusion on the freq the controller should have been alerted by EMSAW (en route minimum safe altitude warning). Another fail-safe, not available to 304PA was GPWS. Hopefully in the future some kind of terrain database can be tied to the GNS430 that would give similar warnings at a price reasonable to general aviation.

It isn't realistic to be checking altitudes on the chart or asking the controller about MVAs in the United States. If a controller assigned me an altitude that conflicted with terrain then you would be reading about me in an NTSB as well.

[clrair]

they have before

[SteveC]

[ QUOTE ]
they have before

[/ QUOTE ]
Clarify please.

[project7]

[ QUOTE ]
I highly doubt a controller has sent you, or anyone else you know into a mountain

[/ QUOTE ]
This has happened to me twice. Once by socal approach enroute from van nuys to riverside and once by mugu approach enroute from oxnard to van nuys. Both times I caught the conflict because I was taught to build fences during my IFR training.
[ QUOTE ]
It isn't realistic to be checking altitudes on the chart or asking the controller about MVAs in the United States

[/ QUOTE ]
I do it constantly. If a controller is frustrated by it then tough #####. It's not their butt in the seat.

[aviator]

Terrible thing that happened and I can see where the confusion arose. Every time I get in the pattern with multiple Pam AM (PA) or Riddle (ER) aircraft confusion seems to take over. I know here in FL at Ft Pierce and Vero they at least refer to the aircraft as Pan AM 12 or 15, but aside from these two airports nobody knows the difference. That was one reason why FSI insisted that all its aircraft have different tail numbers.

[project7]

The similar tail numbers are okay when you're at an airport which is familiar with them. At riddle in prescott we would say "riddle 12" and from what I understand that's what pan am does as well. We even used the "riddle #" call sign at local airports like deer valley. The problem is that when you go to an airport which is not familiar with you and you use the regular language of "one two echo romeo", it is easy to confuse with other "echo romeo" aircraft since it is at the end of the identification. When I used to take a riddle plane somewhere and heard another riddle plane on the same frequency I would always use the full tail number and, in the case of an uncontrolled field, I would advise other aircraft on frequency that there were in fact multiple "echo romeo" aircraft in the area. The only advantage I ever found (if you want to call it an advantage) is that many controllers and weather briefers would recognize you as a riddle student.