Thinking about joining Pan Am...

[Richard]

I have been looking at Pan Am for awhile and have about 80% decided to attend. I have sent in the application and am awaiting to receive my enrollment packet for the January class. I am going to visit the academy at the beginning of November. Is there any advice for a new student coming to town? Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

[Phoenix_Son]

I don't know much about the school, but I know the area around the airport pretty well. That region between Phoenix and Cave Creek is a funny one. There are some awfully run-down areas up there, and some gorgeous communities. Take your time on the apartment hunt and you should find some great deals. If you need academic credits (I don't know if you're pursuing a degree, or just ratings), there's a decent community college southeast of the airport, near the 51 freeway. ASU is about an hour away from Deer Valley.
It can be rainy in January and February, but then it's sunny nearly every day until the monsoons in late July & August. I've heard that DVT is pretty busy from all the student pilots. It's the only two-runway airport for quite a few miles in any direction.

[Richard]

Thank you for the information, but I should have specified that I will be attending the Ft. Pierce campus if I decide to attend. Anyways, a little about me... I am 26, I have a B.S. in psychology and have established a decent career.... but I have decided to follow my dream before it gets to be too late A couple of quick questions... about how many hours a month do you get to fly as a flight intructor? Also, since you cannot work full time, health insurance would become an issue.... is there anything on campus such as an infermory to take care of this need? Thanks for all your help!

[Phoenix_Son]

lol whoops

[Lima_Charlie]

I am in the midst of my private at the Phoenix campus, and have a couple of tips I received before starting. If you are starting w/ Zero time, then I would pick up the Jeppesen Private Pilot manual and get reading. The learning curve is VERY steep, and if you can come in w/ some knowledge, then the concepts won't seem so foreign and, you will give yourself a much better chance of staying on budget, both in time and money. Hope this helps...

[Richard]

Thanks for the tip! What do you think of the training you are receiving thus far?

[Lima_Charlie]

You know, as simple a question as that is, it is hard to explain. At times it AMAZES me how high the expectations are! The pace of the program seems quite overwhelming at times. The expectation is that you will be proficient at whatever new maneuver or concept you are taught after one or two lessons. If not, then you have to repeat the lesson until you "get it". So, in the long run, that can get expensive! Overall, I think the program is VERY demanding, and if you are not committed to it for the long haul, then it will be a very rough and frustrating trip. You are truly at the mercy of the school. You have VERY little control over your schedule, which leaves very little time for a "life" outside of school.

As far as my training goes, I came in with zero time, and have been keeping up with most of the people that have come in w/ 30-40 hours of experience. So I think my training has gone well, so far. Some days are great, others not so great... :-)

[Phoenix_Son]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are starting w/ Zero time, then I would pick up the Jeppesen Private Pilot manual and get reading.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the advice - I bought it on amazon once I read your post.
The other book I've seen recommended on jc is "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators." It's supposedly a good 'intro to aerodynamics' textbook, so I bought that as well.

[pure_IMC]

aerodynamics for naval aviators is a little much in my opinion, especially if you are just starting out. It is very complex, and for the most part caters to jet aircraft. I would recommend to anyone to just check it out at the library and see if you want it. Thats what I did, and I chose not to buy it, and this was after I had all my ratings. Stick with the Jeppesen in the early going, or you may just confuse yourself.

[Lima_Charlie]

A couple of other books you might want to pick up are The Pilots Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge, and the AirplaneFlying Handbook. Both are FAA publications and go right along w/ what you will read in the Jepp PPM. Oh and they are two of the books you will have to buy when you start anyway. If you want more to read, pick up the Aviation Weather Services book and Aviation Weather. Weather can be a challenge for some people because there is so much to know. Have fun reading!

[Lima_Charlie]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the advice - I bought it on amazon once I read your post.
The other book I've seen recommended on jc is "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators." It's supposedly a good 'intro to aerodynamics' textbook, so I bought that as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be careful when buying books on Amazon and such. Try to make sure you are getting the current edition. The latest Jeppesen PPM is tan and published in 2002.

Just a little tip....

[Phoenix_Son]

Uh-oh. That was pretty naive of me. It's the 1999 edition. Have you seen the 2002 edition? Is it different enough to be worth cancelling my order?

[Lima_Charlie]

Yes, I do have the 2002 edition, but I don't have the 1999 edition to compare it to. If you can find 2002 edition, and can cancel the 1999 edition, w/o any penatly, I would do it. If not, I can't imagine that the information is that different between the two. Unfortunately, you would want to have the most current edition before you start training, just to be safe.

[perpetual]

Richard, Do you really want to spend 80,000+ dollars?


You should take a look at an fbo, or Ari-ben aviator..
you can get the same ratings, and yes (same quality of training) for 10's of thousands of dollars less.

Seriously think about that... many here know that spending 80,000 $
is rediculous when you can spend as little as 25,000$.

Its kinda like going to the store A.) and getting those pair of Nike shoes for 150 bucks,
or.. going to an outlet store and getting the same pair for 20$.... Which one makes more sense?


-Perpetual

[panampilot]

[ QUOTE ]
Its kinda like going to the store A.) and getting those pair of Nike shoes for 150 bucks,
or.. going to an outlet store and getting the same pair for 20$.... Which one makes more sense?-Perpetual


[/ QUOTE ]

Not really but nice try.

[perpetual]

[ QUOTE ]
Not really but nice try.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be frank... Are you an Idiot Panampilot?

I'll say it again, and hopefully you can grasp
the concept okay? Perhaps my "wording" was confusing for you.

Heres the example re-written to hopefully "clear things up".

Store A.) Sells brand "x" product for 100$
Store B.) "also" sells brand "x" product for only 10$

It does not take quantum mechanics to figure out
that "if you want the same product for "less" money goto Store B.

It amazes me to see how some people simply do not
grasp these "very high level discussions" lol

Oh and just to verify, I have experience with Pan Am
as well as the FBO route.

You can save 10's of thousands of dollars in an FBO.
(and yes still make it to an airline)

[Lima_Charlie]

Well, here we go!! I was begining to wonder how long it would take for the insults to begin. As you will come to understand, there are a handful of people that are on a mission to slay the the mighty dragon, called the ACADEMY!!! :-)

The big question for you is, where do you see yourself training and why? I am sure an FBO has some advantages, and those advantage will appeal to certain people. I am sure an FBO is cheaper, but I question whether or not you can get through all the ratings in the same amount of time. Then you have the quality of the training. I have a hard time believing that the average local FBO w/ 10-15 students would be able to provide the level of training that a big academy could. But that is just an opinion.

I know that in my class of about 20 students, 10 came in w/ previous FBO training experience, and still decided to invest the big $$$ in an academy.

I think that if one just want to learn how to fly, then an FBO is a great place to learn. But if one want to fly as an airline pilot, your best bet is w/ an academy. (Yes, yes... I am sure that many an airline pilot has come from an FBO, but I would venture a bet that the Academy has put out many more.)

Just my two cents...

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]

The big question for you is, where do you see yourself training and why? I am sure an FBO has some advantages, and those advantage will appeal to certain people. I am sure an FBO is cheaper, but I question whether or not you can get through all the ratings in the same amount of time. Then you have the quality of the training. I have a hard time believing that the average local FBO w/ 10-15 students would be able to provide the level of training that a big academy could. But that is just an opinion.

I know that in my class of about 20 students, 10 came in w/ previous FBO training experience, and still decided to invest the big $$$ in an academy.

I think that if one just want to learn how to fly, then an FBO is a great place to learn. But if one want to fly as an airline pilot, your best bet is w/ an academy. (Yes, yes... I am sure that many an airline pilot has come from an FBO, but I would venture a bet that the Academy has put out many more.)

Just my two cents...

[/ QUOTE ]

How fast you get your ratings has no bearing on whether an Academy is better or worse than an FBO. You can go through an FBO and if you market yourself well, or apply at the right time (timing is everything), you'll have the same opportunity. "Getting to the finish line first" ratings-wise isn't everything. I wonder sometimes about the guy studying for his ATP while finishing up his Private, long before he's even had time to absorb being a Private Pilot. Plus, $$$ doesn't necessarily equal quality. Not necessarily referring to PanAm here, just in a big-picture sense.

MD

[perpetual]

JoJo, I hope that you can see the obvious reason as to my "response" towards "Panampilot".

The utter and sheer foolishness on his part to seemingly grasp the concept that you can get
the same ((yes same exact)) training for a less ((yes less costly)) school/fbo was the point.

Here is some thing for you To chew on JoJo. I have been to "Pan Am International Flight Academy"
and do you know what? Their CFI's MEI's, and CFII's have the "SAME" level of knowedge of those
instructors that I have met/known/received instruction from other "schools/Fbo's" etc.


Here is the 1 FACT that everyone here needs to "fully" realize

"Learning depends upon the student" It doesnt matter if you have a 50,000 Hr instructor pilot,
or a newly minted CFI teaching the student. It "ultimantly" comes down to how well the student:
A.) wants to learn, and B.) Is able to learn.

Whats the point? Well here's the important fact: If you are motivated, and want to acheive what
you set out to acheive you will do so. And it makes ALL the sense in the WORLD to Spend as
"LITTLE" as possible to get where you want to be.

That is of course if you like burning money away.

[panampilot]

Are you done insulting me?

I have nothing against going to an FBO but I do not agree that you get the same training from an FBO than you do from an academy. I know because I've done both and I have experience with both. I am not arguing quality of training here. There are some CFI's that have a billion hours that have a whole lot more knowledge than I do that work at Ma and Pa FBO's. The quality may very well be the same, here is why I think the Academy training gives you more for MORE money:

1. Brand new aircraft; this may not be important to most but it was for me because I was sick of planes breaking down all the time and I was wasting my time waiting for them to be fixed.

2. Airline style training; again may not be important to others but it was to me. Pan Am has a bi-annual meeting with executives from many different airlines that meet and discuss what type of skills they would like to see in pilots when they come to groundschool. How many FBO's teach Vref and Vtarget airspeeds for approaches? Mine didn't.

3. A jet transition course. This course is set up to mimic an airline groundschool. It is the most I have ever studied including college. It was brutal. But, now I know what to expect and I feel like I have a heads up on others that might be in the same groundschool as myself. This course is taught by airline pilots not by Joe Schmo.

4. Job placement. Academies are able to set up agreements with airlines to hire their graduates with lower times than others. It happens on a regular basis here at Pan Am.

5. Multi time. I know FBO's have twin engine planes but most academies have a program set up where you can do line oriented flight training. This gives you experience flying all over the country in a two crew environment honing your skills. Not to mention that as an instructor I have over 500 multi hours now. That is virtually unheard of from anyone instructing at an FBO.

There are may other reasons I chose to go to an academy. I paid a premium price for the options I listed above. I found those important to me. They might not be for others. So to some things up PERPETUAL, the FBO route is perfectly fine but don't go bashing others who chose to go this route. To all his own.

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you done insulting me?

I have nothing against going to an FBO but I do not agree that you get the same training from an FBO than you do from an academy. I know because I've done both and I have experience with both. I am not arguing quality of training here. There are some CFI's that have a billion hours that have a whole lot more knowledge than I do that work at Ma and Pa FBO's. The quality may very well be the same, here is why I think the Academy training gives you more for MORE money:

1. Brand new aircraft; this may not be important to most but it was for me because I was sick of planes breaking down all the time and I was wasting my time waiting for them to be fixed.

2. Airline style training; again may not be important to others but it was to me. Pan Am has a bi-annual meeting with executives from many different airlines that meet and discuss what type of skills they would like to see in pilots when they come to groundschool. How many FBO's teach Vref and Vtarget airspeeds for approaches? Mine didn't.

3. A jet transition course. This course is set up to mimic an airline groundschool. It is the most I have ever studied including college. It was brutal. But, now I know what to expect and I feel like I have a heads up on others that might be in the same groundschool as myself. This course is taught by airline pilots not by Joe Schmo.

4. Job placement. Academies are able to set up agreements with airlines to hire their graduates with lower times than others. It happens on a regular basis here at Pan Am.

5. Multi time. I know FBO's have twin engine planes but most academies have a program set up where you can do line oriented flight training. This gives you experience flying all over the country in a two crew environment honing your skills. Not to mention that as an instructor I have over 500 multi hours now. That is virtually unheard of from anyone instructing at an FBO.

There are may other reasons I chose to go to an academy. I paid a premium price for the options I listed above. I found those important to me. They might not be for others. So to some things up PERPETUAL, the FBO route is perfectly fine but don't go bashing others who chose to go this route. To all his own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree with everyone putting insults aside and sticking to facts.

PanAmpilot, if you feel you've gotten your money's worth so far with the training program you're gone through, then who can say you've gotten a bad deal? You seem happy with it, and as you say, to all his own.

This just proves that FBOs are fine for some, depending on the FBO; academies fine for others.

Good luck in the endeavors,

MD

[perpetual]

PanAmPilot:

1.) Brand new aircraft are not necessary (you pay more money for what?
A nicer coat of paint? (and just as an example I Bet you if there is any
"problem maintence wise" it has so little of an effect on ones training progress that your point is null.

2.)Airline Style what? Im sorry but Pan Am (fort pierce at least) was
very straightforward and nothing special. (sure there were memory aids and "flows".
But you know what? Any single person can "practice" a flow for crm

3.) Jet transistion course? Non loggable Time in a Non Level anything sim?
Microsoft flight sim 2004 can give me that for 60 bucks, why should I spend over 7 grand?
(PS, I've read over various 737 systems manuals, ops specs for company policy, and other
various "airline" procedural items. Pan am isnt even close.

4.)ahh Connections, well sure everyone's got them at some place, some time,
somewhere. But you know you can get the same job with out "pan am" just as the other
"thousands and thousands" of pilots have done

5.)Multi-time? Okay your being silly now,.. I highly suggest that you take a look
at a place called "ari-ben" Dont take my word for it .. ((take it from pan am instructors themselves))
who have come "over" in order to build time. It seems pan am hasnt fully provided them that twin time now does it?
Oh and as an Aside, How much does your multi time cost anyhow? Twice as much? ahh

Now lets clarify:

Im not mocking you my friend, so dont think that, but what I am merely showing you is the "cheaper way" to acheive the same goals.

I know that you will differ because everyone has different experiences, but facts are facts. Academies cost far more.

[panampilot]

Perpetual you're obviously the kind of guy that has to have the last say on everything. I don't agree with anything you have said in your last post and I especially don't have the time to continue to fight back and forth.

So I'm going to agree to disagree, I suggest you do the same.

[cfi25]

I attended Pan Am and completed their entire program flawlessly. After finishing their program and going through their new instructor indoctrination, it took over 6 months to be called back to instruct. They could have cared less what I did that time - they already had my 60 grand. When you are at the academy, you are not treated like a customer. They do not address student's concerns. If you complain about anything, you will not be hired on as an instructor, so you can't complain. Just an example. There is no library. An academy who is self-proclaiming itself the "Harvard of aviation" has no library???

Are you kidding me????

And instructors getting multi-time???

I know instructors who have been there over a year who have not instructed for ten minutes in a Seminole. Others have been instructing in the twins for hundreds of hours. Not fair - too much politics.

And the ACE program was a 7,000 waste. I have nothing to show for it. Nothing in my logbook. I was great in that darn sim over a year ago. I new it like a pro. What good does that do me now. I need to instruct in a single for about a year to build my hours to be anywhere remotely near hireable. Good thing I paid 7 Grand for 30 non-logabble hours in a CRJ FTD. Its cockpit would look foreign to me now after over a year since the program. The academy requires you to do the ACE program if you want to instruct there. It is their way of getting a few extra "free" thousand from you. By free, I mean that now that they have the sim, its operating cost is closs to nill. Why don't they let us do the ACE after we have already instructed at the academy and built up our hours to be close to airline ready - as a final finishing touch to our skills.

Turnover is ridiculously high. Not because people can't hack it, but because people can't stand the BS. One month I was there, we lost over 20 students. In about a year there the amount of students who left was more unbelievable.

Ask admissions to answer you this. How many people who have gone through the entire program at FPR from start to finish have been hired by an airline? Ask for names. I know of none. Yes - a handful who started at other places and maybe only did a rating or two at Pan AM, but none that I know of who did our whole program. How many of FPRs instructors have been hired over the past 6 months? And how many hours did they have prior to being hired?

And finally, how many instructors, after having borrowed 80 grand, and successfully completing the program, are bagging groceries at Publix and watching their flying skills get rusty waiting to get hired as a CFI by Pan Scam.

[Phoenix_Son]

Sheesh, how many Harvards of Aviation are there? I thought that was just Riddle, now Panam is one, too? Next there's gonna be a Juilliard of Aviation!
Question for Mike...
[ QUOTE ]
I wonder sometimes about the guy studying for his ATP while finishing up his Private, long before he's even had time to absorb being a Private Pilot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would you recommend flying as a PPL for a few months to a couple years before starting one of these condensed "get-your-ratings-real-quick" programs at an academy? Are there a lot of graduates of these programs that find themselves to be over-educated and under-experienced?