Upset Spin Training at DCA

[Speedy]

Has anyone taken upset spin training at DCA? I plunked down about 3k for the course many moons ago and was then told I didn't fit in the plane (Extra 200 ... apparently is made for midgets and horse jockeys). I'm now almost finished with mulit/com and would really like to learn more than a few spins in a beat-up 152. I've repeatedly asked DCA when they'll be able to provide me with the course and I keep getting the runaround. There's a group of about 6 of us that I know of in the same boat.

Anyone know anywhere else in Central Florida where we can go before walking out the door of DCA for breach in contract?

Is anyone enjoying DCA at all lately?

[DE727UPS]

I was going to reply to your post at APC about "aerobatic training might open some doors". Well, most of those planes have canopies...haha...hehe...

Sorry, bad joke....

Anyhow, I don't see how aerobatic training will help you move up the career ladder. Not knockin' it by any means, I keep thinking I should do it one of these days. But as far as "advertising" that spending 3K on an acro course will help you in your job search? I'm gonna put that one in the same catagory as "being owned by Delta means everything".

I'm sure Planediveguy, the local DCA apologist, will disagree. But that's what I think.

[planediveguy]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I was going to reply to your post at APC about "aerobatic training might open some doors". Well, most of those planes have canopies...haha...hehe...

Sorry, bad joke....

Anyhow, I don't see how aerobatic training will help you move up the career ladder. Not knockin' it by any means, I keep thinking I should do it one of these days. But as far as "advertising" that spending 3K on an acro course will help you in your job search? I'm gonna put that one in the same catagory as "being owned by Delta means everything".

I'm sure Planediveguy, the local DCA apologist, will disagree. But that's what I think.

No, I don't disagree. The objective of the Upset Recovery Course is to improve piloting skills, something DCA think is important. All students that have been through the course would tell you how much it helps. It doesn't directly increase your chances of getting hired by an airline, like you mentioned. And I don't think that it is advertised in that way, at least I am unaware of it.

I do have a friend that is a senior 767 Captain at Delta that has been recomending this kind of training since I told him that I was going to learn how to fly.

Speedy,

I too cannot fit on the 200 (for obvious reasons!) and am waiting for the 300. You will not be charged the 3K that the course entails untill you fly. Come see me at my office and I will be glad to help solve your issue.

Fabio

[DCApilot2006]

Get your 3K back and go and rent a 172. Spend 2 weeks flying around florida during all this weather and you'll learn real quick what upset recovery means.

When finished, you'll get another 30hours for the logbook. At least this way you'll get something that WILL get you to a job faster.

NO REGIONAL airline or ex-767 Capt really gives a flying rat's @$$ that you took a recovery class. They just want to know can you run a radio and be easy to get along with for 8hrs. If you need upset training in an RJ, you have bigger issues.

[dc3flyer]

Originally Posted by DCApilot2006

They just want to know can you run a radio and be easy to get along with for 8hrs. If you need upset training in an RJ, you have bigger issues.

Yeah, that's the reason I learned to fly!!!!

I think he wants to take some aerobatic training for the FUN of it and so that he will be a better all around pilot. I give him credit for that!!!! I don't know anything about the course at DCA, but good luck.

[Cld9Avatr]

I am one of the students that will not fit in the aircraft at DCA as well, the only problem I have with DCA "so far anyway" is that they have been talking about this program for at least 8 months, and they still have not fixed the simple problem of having the wrong airplane...It scares me to think that mangement is fully aware of the problem yet they either refuse to fix it or their hands are tied by big old DELTA airlines...either way not a good way to run a business, unless of course you want to run it into the ground.
I disagree with 767, as I feel there is a great benefit to this stuff, my dad works for the airlines, and when I told him about this he said it would be great if I could get the training. I also spoke with an instructor who works in the Learning Resource Center, she took the course and said helped her out alot with confidence and feeling better about stalls , spins and upset situations. I also spoke with the guy who runs the group when he did my test fit, he made the program seem real valuable, yet since I don't fit in the plane I got the typical BS that you get when someone does not know the answer..."Well we are looking at solutions for the problem and will let you know as soon as we can do your training..." I could see how frustrated he was and in his defence he was really sorry...
It boils down to DCA not delivering on a promise, and until I see the aircraft that I can fit my ass in sitting on the ramp, I don't want to hear any more BS.
sorry for the rant, just getting real frustrated and it seems like know one at DCA who can really do anything other than talk cares...
thanks for listening...

[Speedy]

Thanks to all for your replies regarding glass cockpit time and upset training. I'm no longer fretting glass time anymore however there's still a growing group of us searching for upset training I/we know we'll get little more than basics here at DCA or at the airline. I don't expect it to make make me a more desirable airline candidate, but I do want the experience, to feel safer and more knowledgeable ... more in control. (For all the reasons DCA pitches the course at enrollment.)
A buddy has called around searching for other options and found there is someone here at SFB who might do it and we hear rumor that RAA is putting together a program using Extra 300s (which we are told are bigger and should fit the remainder of us). Maybe if we all got together we could get a group rate and do this elsewhere.
Thanks again for input from the forum. Its helped to make some informed decisions. Thank you.

[DCApilot2006]

Originally Posted by Cld9Avatr

either way not a good way to run a business, unless of course you want to run it into the ground.

It boils down to DCA not delivering on a promise, and until I see the aircraft that I can fit my ass in sitting on the ramp, I don't want to hear any more BS.
sorry for the rant, just getting real frustrated and it seems like know one at DCA who can really do anything other than talk cares...
thanks for listening...

You said it, I didn't. You should have spent almost 3years at that rathole with them promising me NEW airplanes in the summer of 2003! You want to talk about getting milked and LIED to. They tell you anything to keep you there and the money flowing at an alarming rate! Then to top it off, they bought the wrong airplanes. They are just NOW (over 4years later) looking like a flight school should, decent hardware parked on the ramp instead of those beatup and wornout heaps of junk.

The instructor in the LRC is a source of wisdom? Are you serious? Do yourself a favor, find that bald guy they call a president these days and tell him to refund your dough for the upset course. Your gonna need it when they bill you 6K for an MEI ticket!

To the DC3 guy above, you cannot tell me his 3k would be better spent on a half dozen hours doing aerobatic crap with a subpar instructor than earning say a taildragger endorsement. This will teach you the fine art of rudder control that will pay you back as a pilot in dividends.

[Nismaxdan]

I am glad I don't have to do the upset recovery course. I heard there is some place at ORL that does it for a lot less than DCA and you get the high performance and tail wheel endorsements.

Oh and DCA rules.

[dc3flyer]

Like I said, I don't know anything about DCA's upset recovery course. I do know that an Extra is a tailwheel but I didn't know (until Nismaxdan just pointed it out) that you don't get a tailwheel endorsement.

In that case.... I would find a Citabria or something elsewhere and get the stick and rudder experience, along with some aerobatics!!!

[Nismaxdan]

Originally Posted by dc3flyer

Like I said, I don't know anything about DCA's upset recovery course. I do know that an Extra is a tailwheel but I didn't know (until Nismaxdan just pointed it out) that you don't get a tailwheel endorsement.

In that case.... I would find a Citabria or something elsewhere and get the stick and rudder experience, along with some aerobatics!!!

To be honest some people do get the tailwheel but most don't. I honestly don't know why some do and some don't.

[The Juice]

Originally Posted by dc3flyer

Like I said, I don't know anything about DCA's upset recovery course. I do know that an Extra is a tailwheel but I didn't know (until Nismaxdan just pointed it out) that you don't get a tailwheel endorsement.

In that case.... I would find a Citabria or something elsewhere and get the stick and rudder experience, along with some aerobatics!!!

The tailwheel endorsement is useless. You will not be able to take that endorsment and walk into a FBO and say "Hey, I'll take the Decathlon for a few hours." For a fraction of the DCA cost you can do what I did; went to a small FBO located at a grass field and started flying a Citabria and Decathlon with an instructor. In about 12 hours I received an endorsement I felt ok about (it will take that just to be able to do decent whell landings). I then did another 15 hours in basic aerobatics, learning about 7 aerobatic maneuvers and how to do spins like a pro (being able to spin 4 times and pull out on assigned heading.) Now I have close to 30 hours in the plane and I spent less that the DCA course which is what..5-6 hours. Now since I did my training at this FBO I am signed off at this FBO to take the plane up alone or if I want to scare the crap out of on of my friends by doing a few split-S's or a hammerhead.

Will you get that from DCA?

[Nismaxdan]

Originally Posted by The Juice

Will you get that from DCA?

Nope!! You are talking about enjoying learning the art of aviation. Unfortunately DCA is not about that.

[Speedy]

Wow, I'm amazed at the response to 'upset training' issues. It seems as if for the average sized student, that most of us will only be "upset" at DCA's "bait and switch" regarding their upset program. As far as the growing group of students I spend time with, we've heard of two places in Central Florida that offer upset/spin/aerobatic training. One is Air Orlando but they are in the process of training a new instructor as their previous instructor no longer works their. The other option is a guy at SFB with a few Extra 300 aircraft in the south east hangars, but none in my group have spoken to directly at this point ... if anyone has any info on tracking this person down it would be helpful.

Why no tailwheel endorsement at DCA? Manger of the program as well as other state that the training does not concentrate on landings and course emphasis is on air work which is what most of my buddies and I are after. I/we have learned that a tailwheel endorsement can be earned in a cheaper aircraft in about 6 hours for those that have that desire. Maybe we could get a group rate somewhere. But yes Juice, the days of walking in and renting anything are over.

I was so surprised when I listened to the enrollment sales pitch at DCA ... that they would offer such unique and advanced programs ... but to who? And none in my group have ever gotten a straight answer as to options when we as program management. Its always ... "we have no answer ... go ask the next guy up the ladder".

And they what us to eventually work here ... be instructors here ... are you kidding me? This place has started to give me a very uneasy feeling. I hope they get the problems with the Cirrus and other programs straight soon ... PR is dropping fast.

Juice, where did you fly the Decathlon? I hear it really makes you a better stick and rudder pilot. Less fearful of the unknown as you've "been there done that" ... ?

[H46Bubba]

Originally Posted by Nismaxdan

Nope!! You are talking about enjoying learning the art of aviation. Unfortunately DCA is not about that.

Yeah; it's too serious to have fun. That's what I missed the most when I was there. the fun of flying. Luckily for me I rented for Avion when I wanted to go have fun, do some time building and use all the hi tech gadgetry that was missing from DCA aircraft.

[Nismaxdan]

Originally Posted by H46Bubba

Yeah; it's too serious to have fun. That's what I missed the most when I was there. the fun of flying. Luckily for me I rented for Avion when I wanted to go have fun, do some time building and use all the hi tech gadgetry that was missing from DCA aircraft.

That's what I do now. A rather smart individual had advised me to do that when I got there Thanks Howard.

[Speedy]

Good news. My father, a captain at our namesake really wanted me to take the Upset Recovery course and happens to know the owner of the Extra 300 DCA had been using ... this is the same pilot who flew the airshow at DCA's grand opening of the new facility. One quick call from my father reveals that DCA had declined to continue using the Extra 300 and that anyone can get the same upset recovery training in the same yellow Extra 300 DCA had been using for $2500. Some $700 less than at DCA.
I had been so excited as this week I was scheduled to take upset training in DCA's new Extra 300 which for some reason they no longer have ... again. I was supposed to have taken the course months ago, however at the time DCA only had a ratty Extra 200 which less than half of the student body could fit in. After now completing my multi courses I was able to step back and was on the schedule to begin my upset training at the end of this week. I was really looking forward to it as it would not only teach me something incredible and break some of the fears the Cessna and Seminole had yet to do ... but it was just going to be fun. You Cirrus guys ... good luck learning how to use your feet!
I get into school today to discover that there will be no more upset training. DCA has made it voluntary and no longer has has the Extra 300. Get this, they're still offering the course for anyone who fits in the Extra 200. What kind of crap is that when the vast majority of us wanted to take the course? This program seems to be such a bait and switch for DCA ... we have it, we don't, we have it, we don't. How can they not seem to manage one small program and a fleet of two planes?
If anyone still wants the course ... the same training can be had in a better airplane than the 200 for $700 less than at DCA where it cost $3200. Their website is TheAirplaneCo.com. A friend an I have already signed up. We're grabbing the money from our loan and going to have fun flying. We're also promised the plane won't disappear before we get there. I/we'll let you know how it goes.