Over Here… Over Here…

[Cactus_Cutter]

Ari-Ben booted off Schools that support Jet Careers?

What’s going on?

[Crockrocket94]

i dunno, just found it moved in the last 4 or 5 hrs...
doug?

[JEP]

Originally Posted by Cactus_Cutter

Ari-Ben booted off Schools that support Jet Careers?

What’s going on?

My guess would be the owners were tired of the pissing match that occurs in its forum and may have decided to not support the site because of that. If that is the case, way to go knuckleheads.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by JEP

My guess would be the owners were tired of the pissing match that occurs in its forum and may have decided to not support the site because of that. If that is the case, way to go knuckleheads.

Seems to me as if there's a significant lean towards more pro than con. Granted, it's only two or three bitter individuals hell bent on naysaying with every post they make. That should not be a reason, if that is possibly the case, for them to move.

I'm curious as well. If in fact that's the case, not, in my humble opinion, a MLK attitude. Despite adversity, slight as it is, press with your convictions. In the end, right will prevail. . .unless perhaps one is concerned about the possible validity of the naysayers?

[woog315]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

Seems to me as if there's a significant lean towards more pro than con. Granted, it's only two or three bitter individuals hell bent on naysaying with every post they make. That should not be a reason, if that is possibly the case, for them to move.

I'm curious as well. If in fact that's the case, not, in my humble opinion, a MLK attitude. Despite adversity, slight as it is, press with your convictions. In the end, right will prevail. . .unless perhaps one is concerned about the possible validity of the naysayers?

It's a shame that 2 or 3 blowhard grudge-holding cry-babies have marginalized what was once a very useful source of information. These boards played a significant role in my choosing Ari-Ben when I did my training and now that its been relegated to the "other flight schools in small print at the bottom of the page" section, I doubt it will get as much traffic.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by woog315

It's a shame that 2 or 3 blowhard grudge-holding cry-babies have marginalized what was once a very useful source of information. These boards played a significant role in my choosing Ari-Ben when I did my training and now that its been relegated to the "other flight schools in small print at the bottom of the page" section, I doubt it will get as much traffic.

My thought exactly. Let's see what management at Ari-Ben thinks.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by woog315

It's a shame that 2 or 3 blowhard grudge-holding cry-babies have marginalized what was once a very useful source of information. These boards played a significant role in my choosing Ari-Ben when I did my training and now that its been relegated to the "other flight schools in small print at the bottom of the page" section, I doubt it will get as much traffic.

Why can it not still play a significant role for anyone else now? Just because it's been placed under the Flight Academies sub-forum?

I'm sure if Ari is a great place to train, then whoever wants to keep it that way will make it such. . .no matter where it is on an online message forum.

[NickH]

That would be 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 people who disagree with you.

Too bad you can't deal with that and have to insult them in an attempt to validate your own ignorance.

[Gonzorox]

HAHA!!! Nick... priceless.

Like WOOG315 said, this ABA forum was instrumental for me as well as far as choosing Aviator. There have always been the people who had negative things to say, but NEVER like the 2 and now the new 3rd. Too bad, i guess.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by NickH

That would be 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 people who disagree with you.

Too bad you can't deal with that and have to insult them in an attempt to validate your own ignorance.

I've not bothered to read the sum total of YOUR posts, but initially my impression was that you were an incisive person. I'm starting to change my initial impression.

For my many years particularly in the military, I've prided myself on evaluating data based upon best case/worse case scenarios. If one doesn't play the role of "devil's advocate" to favorable situations, lives are lost. I've seen on too many occasions, especially during my Vietnam stint if people don't naysay, a good situation can go to hell in a handbasket quickly.

Having said that, when someone naysays, providing constructive comments in support of one's argument bodes well for many to gain a complete totallyl unbiased viewpoint. From 2,3, maybe 4 former Ari-Ben students, I personally haven't seen that constructive criticism. I've seen petty bickering relating to personality differences between management and students; I've seen disrespectful comments about the owner and his personality predicated either, in my opinion, on the owner's failure to reach an amiable resolution to conflict with a former student, or the student's perception of being ripped off by Ari-Ben followed by the only recourse available - that being to bash the organization on the web. . .more specifically this forum.

There are many former Ari-Ben students on this forum. Their comments have been varied both pro and con. Even the pros Ari-Ben comments were not without negatives comments addressed in order to improve the conditions for future students. With the 2,3 or 4 continuous naysayer? I've read very little from them that would allow me to conclude they are simply bitter frustrated former students with unresolved issues with the school with their only recourse but to bash the school on this forum.

They say Ari-Ben's planes are not safe, yet statistically, I've seen nothing documented to support the comment. They say the prices quoted have been "low balled." I've not seen any either academies or FBOs that have provided quotes for prices that were 100% correct. . .not even close.

There's this organization called the Better Business Bureau. If someone has a grievance with business practices of Ari-Ben, have those individuals filed a complaint with the BBB? If so, what was the outcome of the complaint? Seems to me the most professional thing to do when a "businesses" practices are unfair to the customer is to file a complaint.

What I do like, at least so far, is that despite the negativity from those select few, the strong support from former students negate comments from others. There have been complaints, but overall, the comments have been that many gained valuable experience, good and bad, they have learned and benefited by while being at Ari-Ben. OK, so Fort Pierce isn't the nicest place to be. I'm curious how many individuals/former or present students from the school have been victims of a crime while attending the school? I'd like to compare that to crime statistics from other schools around the country.

My biggest gripe? Whiners. . .it does annoy me on a personal level when comments are made continually from posters that aren't professional or constructive in nature. When that happens, I'll challenge them either on a private or public forum to support their comments.

Lastly, "ignorance?" The word can be perceived as provoking in nature, but it's not applicable to me. I've interacted with many an ignorant person in my life to know I'm very capable of differentiating myself as insightful as opposed to petty, ill-informed, weak-minded individuals who haven't a clue about addressing conflicts towards a favorable resolution without whining.

[MFT1Air]

. . .and for those whose reading composition level isn't on par with the passing level of the G.E.D. equivalency exam . . .

- Quit yer bitching and get over it!

[ShoreFly]

Originally Posted by NickH

That would be 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 people who disagree with you.

You can make that 6. As for friends of mine that don't post here, 8, 9, 10...etc
It's unfortunate that this school's place is now in the back pages. It was nice to see it exposed out in the open.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by ShoreFly

You can make that 6. As for friends of mine that don't post here, 8, 9, 10...etc
It's unfortunate that this school's place is now in the back pages. It was nice to see it exposed out in the open.

Few. . .some. . .many. . .again, strictly subjective and probably equally as nonconstructive.

Again, a few/some/many people just don't get it.

Reading is fundamental; knowledge is power; when you stop learning, you stop growing.

I'm beginning to see why perhaps the pay scale is declining for the new breed of pilots entering the aviation field. Never mind, it's not systemic. I almost forgot the naysayer I have frustration with aren't the norm.

[NickH]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

I'm curious how many individuals/former or present students from the school have been victims of a crime while attending the school? I'd like to compare that to crime statistics from other schools around the country.

I only know of one person who was the victim of a crime while staying in the school housing. He went to school leaving the doors to the house not just unlocked but standing wide open. He returned eight hours later and went to bed, but discovered the next morning that his laptop was missing. The (young) student had his parents call the school demanding they do something about it.

At another house that night there was a little party going on for an instructor who was leaving, and the next day the school accused that instructor of stealing the laptop. However, he was gone, so the school then decided that four students who had walked past the wide open house during the party were to blame, and told them they each had to pay for it, or they would be thrown out of the school.

I don't believe any of those students uses this forum, but this example shows how easily the school generates this kind of bad feeling, and how badly you can be treated simply by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This would be the cue for someone to point out something irrelevant in an attempt to damage the character of these students.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by NickH

At another house that night there was a little party going on for an instructor who was leaving, and the next day the school accused that instructor of stealing the laptop. However, he was gone, so the school then decided that four students who had walked past the wide open house during the party were to blame, and told them they each had to pay for it, or they would be thrown out of the school.

I hope they politely informed the school no, and if the school pressed the matter further, they would take them to court. How was the laptop issue resolved?

[Florida_Flyer]

No, it's not just me and maybe one or two other ex students bashing the Aviator. It would be possible to round up the names of ten or so posters that have said some pretty damning things about the school. These range from accusations of sloppy and incompetent management, having a macho, anti-safety culture, refusing to refund money that is owed to students, paying employees to pose as students to promote the school....the list is as long as it is shameful. I guess us naysayers are in a way kind of bitter. But most of us have moved on to airline and 135 jobs and at least one is an airline Captain; it would be easy to forget the whole Aviator experience and say nothing. The strength of feeling is so strong though that years after leaving the Aviator some of us are still bashing them here on JC. And I guess you could say the same about the pro Aviator crowd. The opinion is divided so the threads are always going to be heated.

So, MFT1Air, you've been posting for years on this forum, mainly saying nay of the naysayers, as you call us. I just want to clear a few things up. Have you ever been a student or instructor at the school? In fact, have you visited the place in the recent past? You obviously have a lot of life experience but I suspect you don't grasp the real problems here; yet you provide advice to others. I don't mean that as an attack on you BTW. The fundamental problems are Mike, TJ, Peggy and their "quirky" personalities. Get rid of them and replace them with responsible adults and you'd solve most of the problems. As that isn't going to happen any time soon, take the $$$$$$ some place else.

One last thing. What is the official word here on why Aviator's forum has been moved? I'd be surprised if Mike would pull the plug himself. This forum used to be a big shop window for Mike (until it was exposed).

[NickH]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

I hope they politely informed the school no, and if the school pressed the matter further, they would take them to court. How was the laptop issue resolved?

I know at least a couple paid up. This is the biggest drawback of the school taking thousands of dollars upfront and students having little if any ability to do anything. Most students are young, away from home for the first time, and are already frustrated by delays. They want to move on and get out, and are already paying extra to do it.

I know one decided that the cost and time of fighting to get his money back from the school would be too great, and agreed to pay his 1/4 share in exchange for getting the balance of his account back so that he could leave (Just quitting means paying thousands in penalty charges according to the training contract.).

[NickH]

Originally Posted by Florida_Flyer

One last thing. What is the official word here on why Aviator's forum has been moved? I'd be surprised if Mike would pull the plug himself. This forum used to be a big shop window for Mike (until it was exposed).

My guess would be that Mike demanded any negative feedback be removed or he would stop sponsorship, and Doug refused.

Personally I think JC is a better place without Ari's advertising, and would be more than happy to contribute towards upkeep of the website.

[ShoreFly]

I can't agree more FF. I have moved on to bigger and better things, but yet I still have the urge to inform PROSPECTIVE STUDENTS of the realities and facts of attending this particular school. Both positive and negative.

I arrived at this school with only 3TT, endured the entire VA Pro Course, and ended my tenure as a paid instructor. I think that qualifies me to make informed posts in this forum. So...when did you attend Ari Ben MFT1air? What ratings did you achieve and how long did you stay?

Or are you just "posting blindly"?

[Florida_Flyer]

I was at the school a few years back and Mike called us all into the hangar by the school. Some students had been posting here on JC, on a now missing thread called "quite displeased with this place." They were concerned with MX, safety and completion timescales. Mike said he was working to find out who was posting. He found out who it was and forced at least one regular poster to confess that he was lying, which he did. The rest of us students were threatened with being thrown out if there were any more complaints. Point being, Mike does not take criticism of the school well and this forum is now a place where you find a lot of criticism of the Aviator.

[kailuaboy]

Originally Posted by Florida_Flyer

No, it's not just me and maybe one or two other ex students bashing the Aviator. It would be possible to round up the names of ten or so posters that have said some pretty damning things about the school. These range from accusations of sloppy and incompetent management, having a macho, anti-safety culture, refusing to refund money that is owed to students, paying employees to pose as students to promote the school....the list is as long as it is shameful. I guess us naysayers are in a way kind of bitter. But most of us have moved on to airline and 135 jobs and at least one is an airline Captain; it would be easy to forget the whole Aviator experience and say nothing. The strength of feeling is so strong though that years after leaving the Aviator some of us are still bashing them here on JC. And I guess you could say the same about the pro Aviator crowd. The opinion is divided so the threads are always going to be heated.

So, MFT1Air, you've been posting for years on this forum, mainly saying nay of the naysayers, as you call us. I just want to clear a few things up. Have you ever been a student or instructor at the school? In fact, have you visited the place in the recent past? You obviously have a lot of life experience but I suspect you don't grasp the real problems here; yet you provide advice to others. I don't mean that as an attack on you BTW. The fundamental problems are Mike, TJ, Peggy and their "quirky" personalities. Get rid of them and replace them with responsible adults and you'd solve most of the problems. As that isn't going to happen any time soon, take the $$$$$$ some place else.

One last thing. What is the official word here on why Aviator's forum has been moved? I'd be surprised if Mike would pull the plug himself. This forum used to be a big shop window for Mike (until it was exposed).

*Personal attack deleted*

how far did you go through the program at the aviator? if you went through to commercials, or even passed the CFI's then i dont understand why you are complaining so much. If you truly believed in the above statement, why didnt you leave as soon as you got there? i dont think you have an answer to that question.

[Chewie von Nubbins]

Well, I have never been to this school. But, I have spoken to several folks that have went there and finished up their pro program. I have yet to find someone that has been to The Aviator that will pat you on the back and assure you that going there is a good decision. But, most of these people just don't want the hassle of speaking out against The Aviator.

I think it speaks volumes that people make it one of their main missions in life to bad mouth Ari Ben. Why are people so bitter? Really, ATP takes a lot of heat for their 90 day program...but I have never seen posts that attack the integrity, the way people were treated there, or any "character" issues that happen within The Aviator forum. So, for me, I tend to think that there must be some truth to the allegations that people like FF and NH have.

Lastly, why is it that the management that run Ari Ben are incompetent in their ability to resolve conflict that happens there at the place they are leading and in charge of? Have you ever seen people get on the ATP or Skymates forums and accuse those schools of these type of "character" issues?

[NickH]

Originally Posted by Florida_Flyer

I was at the school a few years back and Mike called us all into the hangar by the school. Some students had been posting here on JC, on a now missing thread called "quite displeased with this place." They were concerned with MX, safety and completion timescales. Mike said he was working to find out who was posting. He found out who it was and forced at least one regular poster to confess that he was lying, which he did. The rest of us students were threatened with being thrown out if there were any more complaints. Point being, Mike does not take criticism of the school well and this forum is now a place where you find a lot of criticism of the Aviator.

It's this kind of thing which most people should learn from. There were a lot of people there that day.

Why would Mike be working so hard to find out who the poster is? Why not spend all that time and energy working to fix the problems?

[kailuaboy]

Originally Posted by Chewie von Nubbins

Well, I have never been to this school. But, I have spoken to several folks that have went there and finished up their pro program. I have yet to find someone that has been to The Aviator that will pat you on the back and assure you that going there is a good decision. But, most of these people just don't want the hassle of speaking out against The Aviator.

I think it speaks volumes that people make it one of their main missions in life to bad mouth Ari Ben. Why are people so bitter? Really, ATP takes a lot of heat for their 90 day program...but I have never seen posts that attack the integrity, the way people were treated there, or any "character" issues that happen within The Aviator forum. So, for me, I tend to think that there must be some truth to the allegations that people like FF and NH have.

Lastly, why is it that the management that run Ari Ben are incompetent in their ability to resolve conflict that happens there at the place they are leading and in charge of? Have you ever seen people get on the ATP or Skymates forums and accuse those schools of these type of "character" issues?

I went to the Aviator without my PPSEL. I started with the program with about 50hrs (so I do have past experiences with other schools). I instructed at the Aviator for a year. I recommend the school to everyone that asks me about flight schools. I am not ashamed, nor am I displeased with the service I received while being at the Aviator. I wish I could even go back and instruct part time, but my current employer would never allow it. I had fun as a student and instructor there. I have never taken a plane that I didnt feel safe in. How many times had I refused to take a plane due to MX issues? I cant even think of that, cause that number is so minisquel (sp?) <--meaning small. I left the school with 1000tt and 800multi. So, I would say that, that makes me more than qualified to speak MY mind about this school.

Oh and on a side note: I am not paid by mike or any other persons from the school. All my posts, are of my own FREE WILL and said mind. Good Day!

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by Florida_Flyer

No, it's not just me and maybe one or two other ex students bashing the Aviator. It would be possible to round up the names of ten or so posters that have said some pretty damning things about the school. These range from accusations of sloppy and incompetent management, having a macho, anti-safety culture, refusing to refund money that is owed to students, paying employees to pose as students to promote the school....the list is as long as it is shameful. I guess us naysayers are in a way kind of bitter. But most of us have moved on to airline and 135 jobs and at least one is an airline Captain; it would be easy to forget the whole Aviator experience and say nothing. The strength of feeling is so strong though that years after leaving the Aviator some of us are still bashing them here on JC. And I guess you could say the same about the pro Aviator crowd. The opinion is divided so the threads are always going to be heated.

So, MFT1Air, you've been posting for years on this forum, mainly saying nay of the naysayers, as you call us. I just want to clear a few things up. Have you ever been a student or instructor at the school? In fact, have you visited the place in the recent past? You obviously have a lot of life experience but I suspect you don't grasp the real problems here; yet you provide advice to others. The fundamental problems are Mike, TJ, Peggy and their "quirky" personalities. Get rid of them and replace them with responsible adults and you'd solve most of the problems. As that isn't going to happen any time soon, take the $$$$$$ some place else.

One last thing. What is the official word here on why Aviator's forum has been moved? I'd be surprised if Mike would pull the plug himself. This forum used to be a big shop window for Mike (until it was exposed).

I won't nor can I argue with you about your perceptions about the school.

• Accusations of sloppy and incompetent management. Pretty hefty words from someone who has probably never owned a business? I've owned a business for a few years, and it's a demanding task. Worse than that, an academy is a customer service driven organization of individuals arriving on a regular basis using and abusing a product. Ari-Ben has been around awhile, hasn't it? Why is it that with its anti-safety culture and piss poor planes, it has managed to continue to endure? As I don't know Mike, TJ, and Peggy, 'quirk' in their personalities is as nebulous to me as the term "normal" or "wierd." Their demeanor may or may not be in synch with my own, so I can't say their personalities have "quirks." As a hypothetical situation, if you were my "left seat" and I were your "right seater" I'm not inclined to bash you simply because of personality differences. I've been taught that in many cases personalities will never gel, but work with personality differences to be effective. If you compromise my safety, you're going to hear about it quickly from me. You can attempt to "macho" me if you like, but the power of the civil system can and will deflate that testosterone surge as well as prove my point if I'm right with my belief.
• I have learned a valuable lesson from these posts. Firstly, when submitting monies to Ari-Ben, ensure I don't overpay to avoid some of the situation many are in presently. If not, go back and fly the "you know what" out of the airplanes to get my monies worth. If I still have money in queue with the organization, see if I can pass that money onto someone presently there. If they hassle me about MY money, take them to small claims court and let the court system handle it, or go to the Better Business Bureau and file a complaint there.

You're right, Florida Flyer. There are many pro and con posters to the forum. I'm incisive enough to read through the bashings and determine the deep seated reasons for the negative posts in addition to anyone who might post as if Ari-Ben is the Utopia of aviation academies that can do no wrong. That's BS as well. My point has always been posts should be constructive and beneficial to all parties concerned to correct a perceived problem rather than simply complain. Ari-Ben, unless, because of their perceived bad management practices, will continue on for quite awhile. I don't see the rationale of bashing an organization simply because of three people. I don't know how much interaction there is with these individuals on a day to day basis, but many others have been successful dealing the rest of those who are part of the organization be they maintenance personnel or fellow students or instructors. Focusing on the positive and working to resolve the negative should be every aviator's goal.