What's the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

Doug Taylor · March 14th, 2003, 21:12

I've been following this board for the past few months and have noticed a dramatic increase in negative comments towards Pan Am.

Perhaps if we all step back for a moment, collect our thoughts and clearly list what changes you think need to be made at the school, maybe it'll actually happen.

Use this thread, clearly list what your situation is and suggest a possible solution.

Believe me, Pan Am monitors this forum far more than you realize.

Keep it short, concise and forward-looking and I think you'll have the best chance of having your situation resolved.

guido161st · March 14th, 2003, 22:49

Doug- I applaud your attempt, but I'm affraid it's wishfull thinking. When I attended Pan Am, we had a student union to present collected thoughts from other students. We would discuss common problems and complaints and possible solutions with the administration. Not one thing changed! Things as little as changing items in the vending machine! Of course there were bigger things, but now is not the time

Doug is right though- these boards are monitored by Pan Am. I too would love to hear some of the current situations and problems at Pan Am. Hopefully it can be short and to the point- Problem.... Solution....Best of luck and Hopefully you can get some of these things resolved.

Doug Taylor · March 14th, 2003, 23:10

Perhaps 334,243.86 hits average per day might convince them otherwise?

I know it's wishful thinking, but if they're not willing to step up and alleviate issues that students may have with the program or business practices, it might help other people by seeing the discussion.

guido161st · March 15th, 2003, 08:29

AMEN!!! Couldn't agree with you more!

Tired · March 15th, 2003, 09:40

Yeah, why is it that the students can only take one leave of absence for up to seven days during their training. This reduces quality, there are situations where students really need a couple days off from flying to deal with personal issues. Instead the students just fly really poor for a couple days wasting their money and their instructors time. Or they just call in sick, which really screws up the schedule and isn’t fair on the instructors.

Tired · March 15th, 2003, 09:42

One other thought, why is someone who hasn't atteneded PanAm in almost two years still complaing about the choices in the vending machines?

Come on keephope, you can admit that's pretty funny.

March 15th, 2003, 09:58

I think that the training environment at Pan Am could be improved by setting it up more toward effective learning. this means fewer flights, consistant scheduling and days off completely every week.

Flying too much defeats learning. the flights would be more effective if you had say a two hour flight and a day off between. flying when learning to fly is taxing. plus in the end it wouldn't take that much longer and would cost less for the student because of fewer RT missions.

when ground school runs monday through friday but your instructors days off are tuesday/wednesday you are going to be working 7 days a week for 4 weeks. it seems very obvious to me that you don't perform well if you never get a chance to relax. Try working for 30 days straight and see how your productivity suffer.

scheduling flights around the same time everyday really helps because we are creatures of routine. plus if you need to get a part time job because your living money is running out you can schedule something like that.

Lastly i think charging separately for briefing would be good. on a four hour flight you should get a 1.6 hour brief. there is nothing to brief for that long so why pay for it. i personally think that a 20 min brief for each flight plus 10 min for pre\post flight should be the charge. or some type of system that is more accurate in charging for services rendered. not based on hobbs.

guido161st · March 15th, 2003, 12:06

I meant when I was there- they didn't change things in the vending machines! I could care less now. I know it's funny. But it just goes to show ya, something as little as that- they just don't care

Tired · March 15th, 2003, 13:21

So, I realy want to know, what is wrong with the selections in the vending machines?

casaosa · March 15th, 2003, 17:49

Oh My Goodness you guys. Doug tried to start a legitimate conversation and discuss and we are hearing about the vending machaines??? Once again, I will be on Pan Am's side...at least in FPR, they have nothing to do with the vending machaines, the Tiki owes and operates them. Actually, there was a change when a student or instructor spent money to get something out and replaced it with contraceptive devices....now this was good!!! I wish I would have thought of it. But can this discuss please end here, how pointless is this???
Unsat...I hear what your saying but this is a discussion that you need to have with your instructor. You need to get the same days off if possible but if not and you still have to attend a ground school then make sure that is all you have scheduled. Again, I have said it before, you all know what PAIFA's motto is - For sure!!!! I'm not saying it is right or wrong but there are alternatives and I know many students right now who are taking those alternatives. They do not want to see you fail, nor are they trying to make you fail. Work with those that can help you. Start from the bottom up....
As for the brief time, as I understand it, I think you guys are looking at it wrong. The brief time isn't the time you spend with the instructor after the flight, it's basically the whole instructor, flight and preflight and post....The instructors only get paid when they are actually flying (or teaching, or doing duty CFI). If you no show, call in sick, whatever, the instructor has just stood around for probably a couple of hours not getting paid. Look at it from their point of view because hopefully one day soon you will be in there shoes. Their "brief" is the whole time they spent with you. If I am wrong guys, speak up!!!
Again, Doug asked for serious complaints, vending machaines within a cafeteria I don't feel are valid....he is also correct in the fact of admin reading these posts. As I said on another forum , and at that time opted to shut up, I obviously can't!!! But they do read them as was shown to me in black and white by my boss last week when i was confronted with this whole site. I think the admin could do themselves alot of justice and answer VALID compliants but why not just go to the source and avoid the middleman forums????
Ok, trying to shut up....did this help at all????

Billybob · March 15th, 2003, 18:14

Actually, intructors have nothing to do with scheduling (at least to the extent that they can get you time off). Some instructors have voiced their opinions on the downslide of learning (due to no days off) and the resulting negativity among the student population. From what I was told (firsthand by one that voiced an opinion) is that it is an issue that is not of their concern. The simple fact of the matter is that flight lessons are tough learning, and the lessons degrade without small breaks in the routine. That's an educational principle that has been proven for, well, centuries. But, it's being ignored at the school with a result in A) Disenrollments B) Negative press C) poor reputation via word of mouth. When students are frustrated and tired are they going to recommend the school to others? Many right now are pushed to the point of shopping around due to the lack of flexibility in scheduling - they don't feel that they are being treated as customers. It's as if the customer turns into a nobody once the papers are signed.

Mavmb · March 15th, 2003, 20:30

Pan Am Admin doesn't care. They're making plenty of money cause they collect over 60,000 or more from all of their students up front. Therefore, what students say doesn't matter to them. They've already got the students' money. All that matters to them is their advertising so they can get more people to sign on the dotted line.

JoeBlow · March 15th, 2003, 23:06

[ QUOTE ]
As for the brief time, as I understand it, I think you guys are looking at it wrong. The brief time isn't the time you spend with the instructor after the flight, it's basically the whole instructor, flight and preflight and post....The instructors only get paid when they are actually flying (or teaching, or doing duty CFI). If you no show, call in sick, whatever, the instructor has just stood around for probably a couple of hours not getting paid. Look at it from their point of view because hopefully one day soon you will be in there shoes. Their "brief" is the whole time they spent with you. If I am wrong guys, speak up!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes you are wrong! It says pre and post briefings, which is just that, the instructor giving ground time to the student before and after the flight. The student is being charged for something they don’t receive. Now I’m not stating that no one is getting any brief time but rather what if a student only gets a total of 5 minutes and pays for 1.4hr. That is wrong. And yes there are those that say it is your responsibility to get this time from your instructor, but if you fly twice a day and the instructor has the same type of schedule daily eventually the instructor will owe more time than they can or are willing to give. This is a way for the school to make extra money. At Embry-Riddle (I did fly there as well) the instructors have to charge the students a minimum of 0.1 of brief time after every flight. The minimum is put into place because the instructor is suppose to give a brief, and if the instructor has another activity scheduled immediately after their current student, they don’t have time to give any more than 0.1. To the point, the student only gets charged for the actual amount of time the instructor spends with the student on ground time. This is about the students and not the instructors, so why don’t you look at it from the students (customers) point of view since they are flipping the bill.

casaosa · March 16th, 2003, 12:32

I'm actually not taking either side...obviously, I thought I knew what I was talking about but didn't, my mistake and I apolige. Believe me, I hear both sides to all the stories. My respect for both the students and instructors run parallel and I would like to think my friendship does also.
Now for my pet peeve with PAIFA...don't take credit where it isn't due!!!! i.e., the website where you claim to have placed an instructor in the business/corporate side of aviation. You all know you had nothing to do with it except for employing both the instructor and myself. You all know how he/she got that job.......

Tired · March 16th, 2003, 13:31

In the lobby of the admin building in Phoenix they have a screen showing a list of people who recently left and where they went. The title of the page is "Recent Placements", however, about half of those people did it on there own. They didn't do Pan Am's program so there is no way Pan Am would help them find jobs.

Also on the website I saw that grads can get type ratings at a discount. Anybody know about that program?

FLDiver · March 16th, 2003, 14:12

[ QUOTE ]
I've been following this board for the past few months and have noticed a dramatic increase in negative comments towards Pan Am.

Perhaps if we all step back for a moment, collect our thoughts and clearly list what changes you think need to be made at the school, maybe it'll actually happen.

Use this thread, clearly list what your situation is and suggest a possible solution.

Believe me, Pan Am monitors this forum far more than you realize.

Keep it short, concise and forward-looking and I think you'll have the best chance of having your situation resolved.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps everyone (except the Pan Am Admin.) are starting to realize things and see things a little more clearly. I recall many people stating that Pan Am doesn't monitor these boards and the students don't have time to read them...this seems not to be the case..I believe Casosa can attests to that. I just read Tired's last post about Pan Am putting up a list of recent hires but only had a hand in half of them. I have stated this in that past as well, Pan Am likes to deceive people. If you were a brand new prospective student and saw the "recent hire" list...you would just assume that they were all Pan Am grads and would really be inclined to sign on the dotted line, wouldn't you?...Pan Am is good at deception.
Also, these boards can be used as a source of proof that Pan Am (Admin.) could give a crap about their students...since they DO monitor these boards, they are well aware of the multitude of complaints from ex-students, current students, and employees and have done absolutely nothing to change things around.
So, as far as having something productive to say...Brief Times need to be charged for "brief" time not flight time, students already pay enough just for the flight time. Students should pay for what they are getting, they shouldn't pay for what they aren't getting. A student could really care less what payment arrangement the instructor has with the school. It seems that Pan Am doesn't really pay their instructors directly, it seems that the students account bears all of this weight. Then Pan Am schedules instructors for back to back flights with little or no brief time for students. So, WHY are students paying so much for brief times that they dont get??? Pan Am needs to change how they pay their instructors. They need to pay them a flat rate per flight and then the instructor can put in seperate paperwork for extra ground or brief time. This post is getting a little lengthy so I will stop for now...many more thoughts to come !!!

FLDiver · March 16th, 2003, 14:27

[ QUOTE ]

As for the brief time, as I understand it, I think you guys are looking at it wrong. The brief time isn't the time you spend with the instructor after the flight, it's basically the whole instructor, flight and preflight and post....The instructors only get paid when they are actually flying (or teaching, or doing duty CFI).

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you are wrong here !!! At the time I signed my death warrant, we were told and even signed a paper that stated that the "brief" charges to the students account was for the time that the instructor spent with you BEFORE and AFTER the flight..which usually added to a total time of about 10 minutes..sometimes more, most often...less. Usually my account was reduced by $40-60 per flight, in addition to paying for the aircraft which, at the time, was $96/hr. Does anyone at an FBO or other school pay this much for an Archer AND an instructor??? Why was I paying so much for something that I didn't really get??? I think we ALL know the answer to this!!!!!

guido161st · March 16th, 2003, 15:13

casaosa- the vending machine thing was to get a point across, take it easy. Point is that something as little as that didn't even get changed. I can't even remember what it was for.

panampilot · March 16th, 2003, 17:27

Here is how Pan Am has lately changed the whole brief time thing. Before as instructors we were scheduled back to back with little or no time to brief our student before or after the flight. Now, when we schedule the missions for the students we tell scheduling what mission they are on. Scheduling has a list of how much time each mission should take. For example let's say that a mission is supposed to take 2 hours of flight time. Scheduling automatically adds AT LEAST a half hour to the total time. So now the instructor has the plane for two hours but is scheduled with the student for AT LEAST 2 and a half hours.

This has helped dramatically in giving us as instructors more time to really teach this stuff on the ground and then plenty of time to demonstrate it in the air.

All of my students are much more happy with the whole briefing situation. They feel they are getting their money's worth. So, Pan Am does hear the complaints and yes they do make changes.

guido161st · March 16th, 2003, 19:42

Gee it only took two years!! At least it's a step in the right direction!! I wonder what made them change their mind? The admin never listened to the student commitee before- There's hope yet.

FLDiver · March 17th, 2003, 08:14

It sounds like a start in AZ, I dont know if the same applies in FPR. All I know, is that when I was there, the instructors were scheduled back to back and one of my instructors refused to teach ANY ground because "thats what they should be teaching in your ground school." So, some of my questions were answered but if I had a question outside of ground school, it was usually explained extremely quickly if at all...I am not saying this happened all the time but it did happen on more than a few occasions. But its good to see that there has been at least one change after all the bitching and complaining.

casaosa · March 18th, 2003, 17:53

PanAmPilot...Where are you FL or AZ????? I am going to have to assume AZ cuz in FL, scheduling/admin whoever still doesn't have it right here with back to back flights for instructors and brief time but whatever.....
I am beginning to take sides here and agree especially after what FLdiver said....PAIFA does take credit where credit isn't due and it is almost like false advertising. I would hate to be on the outside looking in and not knowing the truth. And they do monitor....they read this, they know what is going on, it makes me kind of sad to think that noone will responde to you guys....maybe that would answer some questions. Instead, it just keeps going around and around...and it makes me think they are covering up...sorry bosses.....but how else does it look?
I'm really beginning to see what you guys are talking about and the frustration. Believe me, even being on the inside, all I want to do is go to work, do my job and enjoy it as much as I do without admin and the b.s....I have had 1 other job that I enjoyed as much as this. It's a wonderful thing when you can say you enjoy your job, but the reason I enjoy it so much is the students and the instructors, PERIOD. If it wasn't for you guys, I wouldn't put up with it either!!!!

panampilot · March 18th, 2003, 19:07

[ QUOTE ]
PanAmPilot...Where are you FL or AZ?????

[/ QUOTE ]

I am an instructor here in Phoenix. And I can honestly say that admin. here is really trying to do its best to please the customer. They have a couple more things to smooth out but at least they are making the effort.

guido161st · March 18th, 2003, 19:13

casaosa- that's the kind of attitude everyone should have! Keep up the good work!

Panampilot- Have you mentioned to the admin that it would benefit them to come on these forums and discuss concerns with potential students? To me that would be a huge step in the right direction!

justme · March 18th, 2003, 20:44

Hey PanAmPilot, I'm a former student from Pan Am, I left there back in December. One of the reasons I left was because the admin there was the biggest group of a-holes I had ever met. Needless to say I was a little taken aback when you said that admin at DVT actually try to please the customer. I never once saw a single admin there give a crap about what the students thought. However, with the things you have said in this thread, it appears as though maybe things are changing for the better. As much as I am disgusted with Pan Am, I would say that if they would just listen to the students and treat them with some respect(that every customer desreves), it would easily be the top flight school in the country. Assuming Pan Am is actually changing, do you think it has anything to do with Boles leaving?

In no way am I supporting Pan Am and its policies with this post, nor would I recomend any of my friends to go there, But for the sake of all the current and future students, I sincerely hope things are turning around for the better.

March 14th, 2003, 21:12	#1
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,636 Blog Entries: 1	What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read I've been following this board for the past few months and have noticed a dramatic increase in negative comments towards Pan Am. Perhaps if we all step back for a moment, collect our thoughts and clearly list what changes you think need to be made at the school, maybe it'll actually happen. Use this thread, clearly list what your situation is and suggest a possible solution. Believe me, Pan Am monitors this forum far more than you realize. Keep it short, concise and forward-looking and I think you'll have the best chance of having your situation resolved.

March 14th, 2003, 22:49	#2
guido161st Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: AZ Posts: 110	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read Doug- I applaud your attempt, but I'm affraid it's wishfull thinking. When I attended Pan Am, we had a student union to present collected thoughts from other students. We would discuss common problems and complaints and possible solutions with the administration. Not one thing changed! Things as little as changing items in the vending machine! Of course there were bigger things, but now is not the time Doug is right though- these boards are monitored by Pan Am. I too would love to hear some of the current situations and problems at Pan Am. Hopefully it can be short and to the point- Problem.... Solution....Best of luck and Hopefully you can get some of these things resolved.

March 14th, 2003, 23:10	#3
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,636 Blog Entries: 1	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read Perhaps 334,243.86 hits average per day might convince them otherwise? I know it's wishful thinking, but if they're not willing to step up and alleviate issues that students may have with the program or business practices, it might help other people by seeing the discussion.

March 15th, 2003, 08:29	#4
guido161st Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: AZ Posts: 110	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read AMEN!!! Couldn't agree with you more!

March 15th, 2003, 09:40	#5
Tired Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 514	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read Yeah, why is it that the students can only take one leave of absence for up to seven days during their training. This reduces quality, there are situations where students really need a couple days off from flying to deal with personal issues. Instead the students just fly really poor for a couple days wasting their money and their instructors time. Or they just call in sick, which really screws up the schedule and isn’t fair on the instructors.

March 15th, 2003, 09:42	#6
Tired Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 514	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read One other thought, why is someone who hasn't atteneded PanAm in almost two years still complaing about the choices in the vending machines? Come on keephope, you can admit that's pretty funny.

March 15th, 2003, 09:58	#7
Lurker Posts: n/a	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read I think that the training environment at Pan Am could be improved by setting it up more toward effective learning. this means fewer flights, consistant scheduling and days off completely every week. Flying too much defeats learning. the flights would be more effective if you had say a two hour flight and a day off between. flying when learning to fly is taxing. plus in the end it wouldn't take that much longer and would cost less for the student because of fewer RT missions. when ground school runs monday through friday but your instructors days off are tuesday/wednesday you are going to be working 7 days a week for 4 weeks. it seems very obvious to me that you don't perform well if you never get a chance to relax. Try working for 30 days straight and see how your productivity suffer. scheduling flights around the same time everyday really helps because we are creatures of routine. plus if you need to get a part time job because your living money is running out you can schedule something like that. Lastly i think charging separately for briefing would be good. on a four hour flight you should get a 1.6 hour brief. there is nothing to brief for that long so why pay for it. i personally think that a 20 min brief for each flight plus 10 min for pre\post flight should be the charge. or some type of system that is more accurate in charging for services rendered. not based on hobbs.

March 15th, 2003, 12:06	#8
guido161st Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: AZ Posts: 110	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read I meant when I was there- they didn't change things in the vending machines! I could care less now. I know it's funny. But it just goes to show ya, something as little as that- they just don't care

March 15th, 2003, 13:21	#9
Tired Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 514	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read So, I realy want to know, what is wrong with the selections in the vending machines?

March 15th, 2003, 17:49	#10
casaosa Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 31	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read Oh My Goodness you guys. Doug tried to start a legitimate conversation and discuss and we are hearing about the vending machaines??? Once again, I will be on Pan Am's side...at least in FPR, they have nothing to do with the vending machaines, the Tiki owes and operates them. Actually, there was a change when a student or instructor spent money to get something out and replaced it with contraceptive devices....now this was good!!! I wish I would have thought of it. But can this discuss please end here, how pointless is this??? Unsat...I hear what your saying but this is a discussion that you need to have with your instructor. You need to get the same days off if possible but if not and you still have to attend a ground school then make sure that is all you have scheduled. Again, I have said it before, you all know what PAIFA's motto is - For sure!!!! I'm not saying it is right or wrong but there are alternatives and I know many students right now who are taking those alternatives. They do not want to see you fail, nor are they trying to make you fail. Work with those that can help you. Start from the bottom up.... As for the brief time, as I understand it, I think you guys are looking at it wrong. The brief time isn't the time you spend with the instructor after the flight, it's basically the whole instructor, flight and preflight and post....The instructors only get paid when they are actually flying (or teaching, or doing duty CFI). If you no show, call in sick, whatever, the instructor has just stood around for probably a couple of hours not getting paid. Look at it from their point of view because hopefully one day soon you will be in there shoes. Their "brief" is the whole time they spent with you. If I am wrong guys, speak up!!! Again, Doug asked for serious complaints, vending machaines within a cafeteria I don't feel are valid....he is also correct in the fact of admin reading these posts. As I said on another forum , and at that time opted to shut up, I obviously can't!!! But they do read them as was shown to me in black and white by my boss last week when i was confronted with this whole site. I think the admin could do themselves alot of justice and answer VALID compliants but why not just go to the source and avoid the middleman forums???? Ok, trying to shut up....did this help at all????

March 15th, 2003, 18:14	#11
Billybob Newbie Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 21	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read Actually, intructors have nothing to do with scheduling (at least to the extent that they can get you time off). Some instructors have voiced their opinions on the downslide of learning (due to no days off) and the resulting negativity among the student population. From what I was told (firsthand by one that voiced an opinion) is that it is an issue that is not of their concern. The simple fact of the matter is that flight lessons are tough learning, and the lessons degrade without small breaks in the routine. That's an educational principle that has been proven for, well, centuries. But, it's being ignored at the school with a result in A) Disenrollments B) Negative press C) poor reputation via word of mouth. When students are frustrated and tired are they going to recommend the school to others? Many right now are pushed to the point of shopping around due to the lack of flexibility in scheduling - they don't feel that they are being treated as customers. It's as if the customer turns into a nobody once the papers are signed.

March 15th, 2003, 20:30	#12
Mavmb Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 2,169	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read Pan Am Admin doesn't care. They're making plenty of money cause they collect over 60,000 or more from all of their students up front. Therefore, what students say doesn't matter to them. They've already got the students' money. All that matters to them is their advertising so they can get more people to sign on the dotted line.

March 15th, 2003, 23:06	#13
JoeBlow Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 154	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read [ QUOTE ] As for the brief time, as I understand it, I think you guys are looking at it wrong. The brief time isn't the time you spend with the instructor after the flight, it's basically the whole instructor, flight and preflight and post....The instructors only get paid when they are actually flying (or teaching, or doing duty CFI). If you no show, call in sick, whatever, the instructor has just stood around for probably a couple of hours not getting paid. Look at it from their point of view because hopefully one day soon you will be in there shoes. Their "brief" is the whole time they spent with you. If I am wrong guys, speak up!!! [/ QUOTE ] Yes you are wrong! It says pre and post briefings, which is just that, the instructor giving ground time to the student before and after the flight. The student is being charged for something they don’t receive. Now I’m not stating that no one is getting any brief time but rather what if a student only gets a total of 5 minutes and pays for 1.4hr. That is wrong. And yes there are those that say it is your responsibility to get this time from your instructor, but if you fly twice a day and the instructor has the same type of schedule daily eventually the instructor will owe more time than they can or are willing to give. This is a way for the school to make extra money. At Embry-Riddle (I did fly there as well) the instructors have to charge the students a minimum of 0.1 of brief time after every flight. The minimum is put into place because the instructor is suppose to give a brief, and if the instructor has another activity scheduled immediately after their current student, they don’t have time to give any more than 0.1. To the point, the student only gets charged for the actual amount of time the instructor spends with the student on ground time. This is about the students and not the instructors, so why don’t you look at it from the students (customers) point of view since they are flipping the bill.

March 16th, 2003, 12:32	#14
casaosa Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 31	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read I'm actually not taking either side...obviously, I thought I knew what I was talking about but didn't, my mistake and I apolige. Believe me, I hear both sides to all the stories. My respect for both the students and instructors run parallel and I would like to think my friendship does also. Now for my pet peeve with PAIFA...don't take credit where it isn't due!!!! i.e., the website where you claim to have placed an instructor in the business/corporate side of aviation. You all know you had nothing to do with it except for employing both the instructor and myself. You all know how he/she got that job.......

March 16th, 2003, 13:31	#15
Tired Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 514	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read In the lobby of the admin building in Phoenix they have a screen showing a list of people who recently left and where they went. The title of the page is "Recent Placements", however, about half of those people did it on there own. They didn't do Pan Am's program so there is no way Pan Am would help them find jobs. Also on the website I saw that grads can get type ratings at a discount. Anybody know about that program?

March 16th, 2003, 14:12	#16
FLDiver Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 118	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read [ QUOTE ] I've been following this board for the past few months and have noticed a dramatic increase in negative comments towards Pan Am. Perhaps if we all step back for a moment, collect our thoughts and clearly list what changes you think need to be made at the school, maybe it'll actually happen. Use this thread, clearly list what your situation is and suggest a possible solution. Believe me, Pan Am monitors this forum far more than you realize. Keep it short, concise and forward-looking and I think you'll have the best chance of having your situation resolved. [/ QUOTE ] Perhaps everyone (except the Pan Am Admin.) are starting to realize things and see things a little more clearly. I recall many people stating that Pan Am doesn't monitor these boards and the students don't have time to read them...this seems not to be the case..I believe Casosa can attests to that. I just read Tired's last post about Pan Am putting up a list of recent hires but only had a hand in half of them. I have stated this in that past as well, Pan Am likes to deceive people. If you were a brand new prospective student and saw the "recent hire" list...you would just assume that they were all Pan Am grads and would really be inclined to sign on the dotted line, wouldn't you?...Pan Am is good at deception. Also, these boards can be used as a source of proof that Pan Am (Admin.) could give a crap about their students...since they DO monitor these boards, they are well aware of the multitude of complaints from ex-students, current students, and employees and have done absolutely nothing to change things around. So, as far as having something productive to say...Brief Times need to be charged for "brief" time not flight time, students already pay enough just for the flight time. Students should pay for what they are getting, they shouldn't pay for what they aren't getting. A student could really care less what payment arrangement the instructor has with the school. It seems that Pan Am doesn't really pay their instructors directly, it seems that the students account bears all of this weight. Then Pan Am schedules instructors for back to back flights with little or no brief time for students. So, WHY are students paying so much for brief times that they dont get??? Pan Am needs to change how they pay their instructors. They need to pay them a flat rate per flight and then the instructor can put in seperate paperwork for extra ground or brief time. This post is getting a little lengthy so I will stop for now...many more thoughts to come !!!

March 16th, 2003, 14:27	#17
FLDiver Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 118	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read [ QUOTE ] As for the brief time, as I understand it, I think you guys are looking at it wrong. The brief time isn't the time you spend with the instructor after the flight, it's basically the whole instructor, flight and preflight and post....The instructors only get paid when they are actually flying (or teaching, or doing duty CFI). [/ QUOTE ] I think you are wrong here !!! At the time I signed my death warrant, we were told and even signed a paper that stated that the "brief" charges to the students account was for the time that the instructor spent with you BEFORE and AFTER the flight..which usually added to a total time of about 10 minutes..sometimes more, most often...less. Usually my account was reduced by $40-60 per flight, in addition to paying for the aircraft which, at the time, was $96/hr. Does anyone at an FBO or other school pay this much for an Archer AND an instructor??? Why was I paying so much for something that I didn't really get??? I think we ALL know the answer to this!!!!!

March 16th, 2003, 15:13	#18
guido161st Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: AZ Posts: 110	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read casaosa- the vending machine thing was to get a point across, take it easy. Point is that something as little as that didn't even get changed. I can't even remember what it was for.

March 16th, 2003, 17:27	#19
panampilot Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 148	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read Here is how Pan Am has lately changed the whole brief time thing. Before as instructors we were scheduled back to back with little or no time to brief our student before or after the flight. Now, when we schedule the missions for the students we tell scheduling what mission they are on. Scheduling has a list of how much time each mission should take. For example let's say that a mission is supposed to take 2 hours of flight time. Scheduling automatically adds AT LEAST a half hour to the total time. So now the instructor has the plane for two hours but is scheduled with the student for AT LEAST 2 and a half hours. This has helped dramatically in giving us as instructors more time to really teach this stuff on the ground and then plenty of time to demonstrate it in the air. All of my students are much more happy with the whole briefing situation. They feel they are getting their money's worth. So, Pan Am does hear the complaints and yes they do make changes.

March 16th, 2003, 19:42	#20
guido161st Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: AZ Posts: 110	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read Gee it only took two years!! At least it's a step in the right direction!! I wonder what made them change their mind? The admin never listened to the student commitee before- There's hope yet.

March 17th, 2003, 08:14	#21
FLDiver Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 118	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read It sounds like a start in AZ, I dont know if the same applies in FPR. All I know, is that when I was there, the instructors were scheduled back to back and one of my instructors refused to teach ANY ground because "thats what they should be teaching in your ground school." So, some of my questions were answered but if I had a question outside of ground school, it was usually explained extremely quickly if at all...I am not saying this happened all the time but it did happen on more than a few occasions. But its good to see that there has been at least one change after all the bitching and complaining.

March 18th, 2003, 17:53	#22
casaosa Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 31	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read PanAmPilot...Where are you FL or AZ????? I am going to have to assume AZ cuz in FL, scheduling/admin whoever still doesn't have it right here with back to back flights for instructors and brief time but whatever..... I am beginning to take sides here and agree especially after what FLdiver said....PAIFA does take credit where credit isn't due and it is almost like false advertising. I would hate to be on the outside looking in and not knowing the truth. And they do monitor....they read this, they know what is going on, it makes me kind of sad to think that noone will responde to you guys....maybe that would answer some questions. Instead, it just keeps going around and around...and it makes me think they are covering up...sorry bosses.....but how else does it look? I'm really beginning to see what you guys are talking about and the frustration. Believe me, even being on the inside, all I want to do is go to work, do my job and enjoy it as much as I do without admin and the b.s....I have had 1 other job that I enjoyed as much as this. It's a wonderful thing when you can say you enjoy your job, but the reason I enjoy it so much is the students and the instructors, PERIOD. If it wasn't for you guys, I wouldn't put up with it either!!!!

March 18th, 2003, 19:07	#23
panampilot Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 148	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read [ QUOTE ] PanAmPilot...Where are you FL or AZ????? [/ QUOTE ] I am an instructor here in Phoenix. And I can honestly say that admin. here is really trying to do its best to please the customer. They have a couple more things to smooth out but at least they are making the effort.

March 18th, 2003, 19:13	#24
guido161st Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: AZ Posts: 110	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read casaosa- that's the kind of attitude everyone should have! Keep up the good work! Panampilot- Have you mentioned to the admin that it would benefit them to come on these forums and discuss concerns with potential students? To me that would be a huge step in the right direction!

March 18th, 2003, 20:44	#25
justme Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 81	Re: What\'s the beef? Pan Am Admin Please Read Hey PanAmPilot, I'm a former student from Pan Am, I left there back in December. One of the reasons I left was because the admin there was the biggest group of a-holes I had ever met. Needless to say I was a little taken aback when you said that admin at DVT actually try to please the customer. I never once saw a single admin there give a crap about what the students thought. However, with the things you have said in this thread, it appears as though maybe things are changing for the better. As much as I am disgusted with Pan Am, I would say that if they would just listen to the students and treat them with some respect(that every customer desreves), it would easily be the top flight school in the country. Assuming Pan Am is actually changing, do you think it has anything to do with Boles leaving? In no way am I supporting Pan Am and its policies with this post, nor would I recomend any of my friends to go there, But for the sake of all the current and future students, I sincerely hope things are turning around for the better.

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