What's the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

[panampilot]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming Pan Am is actually changing, do you think it has anything to do with Boles leaving?

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't quite answer that question. The idea of changing the whole briefing time thing actually happened before Boles left. I really believe he had a lot of great ideas but he also had to report to a higher authority.

I think admin. are really trying to make things better. I have not personally told them to respond on this forum but I know Doug has. To be honest, I feel a little uncomfortable telling my bosses to defend themselves here. I should do it, but you never know what can happen in this industry when there are a whole lot of people willing to take your position as a flight instructor. I try to stay low on the radar so to speak. I will keep you updated on how things are changing here in Phoenix.

[casaosa]

Keephopealive....Thank you, but it's because of you guys my attitude is sooo good!!!!
PAPilot, how are things changing in Phoenix? I would be interested in knowing what they are doing to better themselves because whatever Phoenix does, FPR follows suit, so maybe there is hope!!! I also think your right to keep your mouth shut, especially if they don't know who you are at this point. Admin knows whats going on here, they read it, they can responde if they so choose. Obviously they choose not too, their choice.
Thanks for the kind words guys....seems like we've all settled down a bit!!!

[TheFlyingTurkey]

Now that I am more than half way throught my training, I thought it would be a good idea to do some math...

1. I went over the private pilot estimate by 5 hours
(55 estimated) So I went over by about $600.

2. I finished time build right on time, as advertised.

3. I finished under the instrument rating estimate by 3 hours
so I saved about $350

4. I went over on the multi-engine rating estimate by 2 hours
costing me about $450

5. I finished CRM as advertised.

6. I finished the route program as advertised.

7. I finished ACE as advertised (flat rate for the course).

So I am over the estemate by only $700. I think that is pretty damn good. And I cant blame anyone but myself for going over on private and multi. I am staying very close to the estimate, even with those "outrageous" brief charges! And by now I know what my abilities are, and I can feel assured that I will finish very close to the estimate. I wonder how I did it? The way some of you guys are talking, I shouldn't have any money left at all.

Bottom line: Pan Am will give you what is advertised, but can you handle it?

The Turk.

[guido161st]

Hey Turk-

Just out of curiousity- what are the advertised prices these days? Congrats on being so close to the estimated cost- I know it's tough.

[Doug Taylor]

Hey guys-

I'm going to close this thread over the weekend, package it up and email it to Pan Am.

After I close it, I'm going to delete it and then repost it with a response, if I'm able to get one from the school.

Any thoughts on this?

[Paul]

Hey Doug,

Please don’t take any offense to this. I think you have a great web site and are providing a valuable service to the aviation community. But it seems somewhat of a strange concept to me for Pan Am administration to make responses on this forum. And it’s not just Pan Am, it would be any business in any field. Does Delta Airlines respond to employee and customer complaints in a public web forum?

And don’t get me wrong, I would love to see their responses to many of the complaints that have been brought up here. For one, it would be interesting to hear their side of the story and like you say, possibly “put out fires”. But mostly these web forums have a way of attracting highly opinionated people leading to arguments of clashing opinions which have a way of escalating through “typed” word.

From what I’ve seen here, Pan Am does have some work to do in improving certain policies. But it also seems like there are quite a few success stories coming out of there too.

[casaosa]

Doug,
I have to agree with Paul. I realize this is your website and you can do as you please (!!!!) but why waste your time and effort in sending this to Pan Am, it won't do any good. As I have previously stated, I know for a fact that some of admin read the threads. They obviously chose not to reply. Don't waste your energy my friend, it isn't worth it.

[pure_IMC]

I say do it, couldn't hurt. Maybe admin is reading this, but perhaps not the right admin.

[Doug Taylor]

Comair responded today. I think that's going to win them more respect than anything else for offering to step up, clear the air and talk. I respect the hell out of that.

Granted, large corporations don't work out problems in a public arena in general. However, aviation is a different beast entirely.

Aviation is more of a community and word of mouth can (and does) kill your credibility (or lack thereof: ATA) and eventually your business.

If we're able to get Pan Am to step up, put some of the flames out I think enough people would respond positively and everyone can win.

Lots of people in the pre-decision process read the forums, I get feedback ALL the time in email.

Can't blame a brother for trying!

[Doug Taylor]

[ QUOTE ]
Doug,
I have to agree with Paul. I realize this is your website and you can do as you please (!!!!) but why waste your time and effort in sending this to Pan Am, it won't do any good. As I have previously stated, I know for a fact that some of admin read the threads. They obviously chose not to reply. Don't waste your energy my friend, it isn't worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Primarily because no one else is. I don't want to sound like some self appointed czar, but this is probably the only forum community on the entire internet that actually gives a crap for student pilots.

I've got to fly with all you characters one day, I want you to show up skilled, happy and eager to get that gear up!

[guido161st]

Do it Doug. I think they should respond to these forums, because they lose so much business when they don't. I've seen people base their decisions on what is said here- and when they chose not to go to Pan Am then they lose money!

[cime_sp]

I say do it...I know the posts on this board combined with my visits to a number of schools (PanAM included) ultimately led to my decision not to go there.

[stuckingfk]

[ QUOTE ]
Do it Doug

[/ QUOTE ]

Great Mallrats movie quote ther keephope, I am sure Doug picked that one up right away since he is a big Kevin Smith fan.

[Doug Taylor]

Mallrats was actually one of my least favorite Kevin Smith films! But I caught the reference!

(Asian design major?)

[TheFlyingTurkey]

Keephopealive09,
The estimated cost for the total program is $55k and change.

[casaosa]

Well Doug, I guess Paul and I were totally outnumbered. I hope you get some results from your efforts but I am certainly not going to hold my breathe, remember I work for these guys. I was promised more open communication and monthly meetings about 8 months ago.......guess what? But PAIFA certainly has more at stake by not talking to you and the forums than not talking to me so hopefully they will finally listen to someone. Believe me, I see what these kids go through each day and I am totally in their corner, however you feel you can help, you have my blessings!!! And by the by, you won't be flying with me.....but you might be piloting the plane I am in someday so I will stay on your good side!!!!

[Tired]

I’m not sure this thread even deserves a response yet. The concerns raised in this thread seem pretty mild to me, moreover, they are all things that have already been brought to the attention of the management and are being worked on. The thing most posters seemed to complain about is the brief time. To begin with, in all my time there I don’t believe I’ve shorted a student brief time. Yes, every once in while I have to run from one flight to another, but I give quite a bit of free ground to each student during a rating that makes up for it. Remember, on a one hour flight you are only paying for twelve minutes before and after the flight. If you think your being ripped of by your instructor, then why not bring this up with your instructor, and then his or her supervisor if they don’t fix it? Interestingly, the biggest whiner here about this policy is FLDiver, who never really attended the school. Moreover, don’t think that changing the way brief time is being charged will save the students money, you’d be mistaken. Pan Am told the students up front that each rating would cost a certain amount of dollars. If they change the way brief time is calculated then expect something else to cost more so that the total program cost remains the same

The other main complaint posted here is that you have to go in seven days a week. I’ll also add something not mentioned here yet, late night/early morning instrument flights. Here’s the problem as I understand it. If you’re in ground school you’re still required to fly once per day, thus giving you ten activates per week. Now, if your instructor works weekends then you’ll have to come in every day of the week. However, four of those days are half days, and three are full days. Yes, that’s demanding, but not completely overwhelming. Moreover, it’s only for a the duration of ground school. Private and instrument ground schools are longer, but most only last one week. It just doesn’t seem that unreasonable to work at that pace work a short time. That said, let’s say that Pan Am goes ahead and gets rid of weekend flying and late night flying. Here would be three big disadvantages. The time to complete the program would increase, aircraft availability would become a problem, and aircraft rates would have to increase. Completing the program on time is something that students have raised issue with. If you don’t complete ten activates a week there isn’t much chance you’ll finish in time. Also, if Pan Am doesn’t fly nights and weekends then aircraft availability would be a problem. There are too many students to only run the aircraft and sims 9-5 M thru F. Lastly, the aircraft rates would have to increase. Since the aircraft are flying less hours a month, the fixed costs will be spread out over less flight hours. Pan Am’s cost per an hour would increase, and there isn’t anyone else to pass these costs onto other than the students. This problem would be further increased if Pan Am had to purchase more aircraft to fix aircraft availability problems. Considering that the cost per hour for the aircraft is less then the other school on the airport (DVT), I’d say the price is pretty fair. Hopefully you can agree that putting up with an inconvenient schedule does have benefits.

So Pan Am, like any other large company does have a few mild issues. However, there are advantages to attending Pan Am. You’ll learn to fly in a nice facility in brand new aircraft, at one of the busiest GA airports in the world (DVT). You’ll receive good training from fairly knowledgably instructors, and be held to high standards. Our safety record speaks for itself. We've had zero fatal accidents, and no gears up landings (DVT). Once you become an instructor you’ll build time quickly, and you’ll get those precious multi-engine hours. Students will be assigned to you so you won’t have to wait behind the counter all day for potential students to come through the door. Lastly, you’ll be paid a pretty fair wage for your work. Then there is the ACE program, I don’t know much about it (panampilot, help here?), but people seem to be getting hired with pretty low time.

Now, I learned to fly at a school where the flight ops building was a trailer, and most of the aircraft had over 10,000 hours on them. I’ve also attended ATPs and visited a few other schools, and I’d have to say that Pan Am students and instructors have it pretty good.

[Tired]

After re-reading my post there, maybe I was little harsh saying that the problems brought up in this thread are mild, since some people seem pretty upset about them. Hopefully thought a reasonable person can understand my arguments and a have a little insight into why things are that way. Pam Am is a decent school, but it’s not the school for everybody. If your reading this thread trying to make a decision you have to decided if the stated inconveniences outweigh the benefits of attending.

[rausda27]

In response to a quote from Tireds' post:
"We've had zero fatal accidents, and no gears up landings (DVT). "


Anyone see the Chris Rock HBO Special?
" I take care of my kids"..."I aint never been to jail".....

0 fatal accidents, no gear up landings...WOW!!! Join the thousands of FBO's part 61 and 141 training facilities that can also claim this same fact.

Sorry to interupt this facinating thread....but really.

[stuckingfk]

[ QUOTE ]
(Asian design major?)

[/ QUOTE ]

I got to thinking, was that what that guys (Doug, before he smoked that fatty blunt)) major was and when Brodi was up there, nobody would believe that from just looking at him?

[FLDiver]

[ QUOTE ]
I’m not sure this thread even deserves a response yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I happen to agree with you on this one. There are plenty of complaints that have not been addressed in this thread. If I were Doug, I would wait until most of the legit complaints were compiled and then submit them to Pan Am admin. Yes, they are already aware of these problems and they have been for a long time and they usually turn a deaf ear to their students and instructors.

[ QUOTE ]
Remember on a one hour flight you are only paying for twelve minutes before and after the flight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a hell of a lot of money for only 12 minutes or even 24 for that matter.

[ QUOTE ]
Interestingly, the biggest whiner here about this policy is FLDiver, who never really attended the school.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tired, you will really fit into upper level management very well. You, like the Pan Am admin., do not listen to a thing the students (customers) have to say. Tired, your name is appropriate, when you are tired, your brain shuts down and by that ignorant statement (above) you have obviously NOT read my previous posts that have been going on for well over a year. If you had indeed read my posts you will see that I DID in fact attend Pan Am at the FPR facility. It seems to me that the DVT facility is run somewhat differently than the FPR facility, but I really can't say because I have never been to the DVT facility, therefore I do not comment on it. Have you been to the FPR facility???


[ QUOTE ]
The other main complaint posted here is that you have to go in seven days a week. I’ll also add something not mentioned here yet, late night/early morning instrument flights.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me personally, I dont (didnt) have a problem with it.

[ QUOTE ]
Hopefully you can agree that putting up with an inconvenient schedule does have benefits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but what about putting up with admin.and their arrogance, inflexible scheduling and accounting problems. Is it worth it??? I don't think so.

[ QUOTE ]
there are advantages to attending Pan Am. You’ll learn to fly in a nice facility in brand new aircraft

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but at a premium price. Why not get the exact same ratings elsewhere for considerably cheaper and less hassle with admin problems.

[ QUOTE ]
be held to high standards.

[/ QUOTE ]

High standards or ridiculous and inflexible rules, designed to rob students of their loan money, which they have absolutely no control over.

[ QUOTE ]
Once you become an instructor you’ll build time quickly, and you’ll get those precious multi-engine hours. Students will be assigned to you so you won’t have to wait behind the counter all day for potential students to come through the door.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is IF you become an instructor. It is popular information that the Pan Am admin has to like you in order to hire you. Or, you can be hired on (as per contract) but they dont have to give you any students. Why take that chance?

[ QUOTE ]
The ACE program , I don’t know much about it (panampilot, help here?), but people seem to be getting hired with pretty low time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh, the good ole ACE program. Tired, if you are an instructor at Pan Am, why don't you know about this program?? Just curious is all. Everyone knows this is a cash cow for Pan Am. While the jury is still out about if it is truley worth the 7K you spend for nonloggable time, any experience is good experience...agreed?? However, Pan Am has moved this program to a much earlier stage in a students career program. Then Pan Am boasts that ALL the new hires are ACE grads. Well, this makes a hell of a lot of sense. Since Pan Am forces students to take the ACE program early (strictly for profit), of course ALL of thier newly hired grads will be ACE grads...its like saying that all new hires are also Private Pilots. Get the gist??

[ QUOTE ]
I’d have to say that Pan Am students and instructors have it pretty good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will agree with you here. Again, pretty, new, air conditioned aircraft (while nice)come at an extreme cost to the student. Why pay for all of the mumbo jumbo when you can get the same ratings, the same quality training and with less hassle, less cost, and a lot of times, faster than you can at Pan Am? In reality, all you are paying for at Pan Am is a name.
Prospective students, protect your assets. Go to a place where YOU and YOU alone control your money and schedule. Go to a place that values you as a customer and appreciates your business. Learn a lesson from the ATA students, don't place all of your eggs in one basket, you never know who is next to go belly up and take your money with them. The bank could care less, as long as YOU pay your monthly loan payment. Especially in this economy, you have to protect yourself and your assets. One of the best ways to do this is NOT to attend Pan Am. I am done for now.

[perpetual]

Doug, Do it

<font color="red">Pan Am HAS Violated my contract.

PAN AM did not only GO past the MAXIMUM ALLOTED TIME OF 60 DAYS
for the RETURN of MY money, but they DID SO by an ENTIRE MONTHS TIME
after the 60th DAY.

THIS held My training up, DELAYED Any form of actual progression
aside from my own self study, and in ADDITION, Cost me LIVING EXPENSES,
of Which I had to draw from my established living account.

Pan Am has in total TAKEN an outrageous 6000$ in BRIEFING Costs Alone.
That is ####g insane, This is Money that could have been put towards Flight Time,
and or an ENTIRELY seperate Rating.

IF ANYONE OUT THERE IS LISTENING:


DO NOT Attend PAN AM in Fort Pierce, Florida:</font>

Save Your Money, and Fly at a local FBO. You will save Thousands of $$.
By Attending PAN AM, you are NOT getting anything special, YOU End up with the SAME Ratings,
and knowedge that Any intelligent, hard working person can attain elsewhere.

[panampilot]

[ QUOTE ]
Pan Am has in total TAKEN an outrageous 6000$ in BRIEFING Costs Alone.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your concern here but Pan Am has changed that, at least here in Phoenix. I did my private and instrument at a local FBO before I came to Pan Am and they charged me for briefing times there. So, it's not like wherever else you go they don't charge you for briefing times, it's just that at Pan Am it is a fixed amount of time.

[Tired]

[/ QUOTE ]
0 fatal accidents, no gear up landings...WOW!!! Join the thousands of FBO's part 61 and 141 training facilities that can also claim this same fact.

Sorry to interupt this facinating thread....but really.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever. I didn't say other places didn't have good safety records. However, Pan Am has an excellent safety record, which can't be matched by some of the local competitors in the Phoenix area.

[Tired]

[ QUOTE ]
Pan Am has in total TAKEN an outrageous 6000$ in BRIEFING Costs Alone.
That is ####g insane, This is Money that could have been put towards Flight Time,
and or an ENTIRELY seperate Rating.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, explain how that is extreme. I went to the cheapest school around and I spent around that much. Paying instructors to ride around isn't exactly inexpensive.