Post deleted by Doug Taylor

[bumflip]

[robair73]

I'm already slated to start ATP in June but am still interested in how Ari-Ben operates. It's my back-up in case(heaven forbid) things don't work out with ATP.

[bumflip]

[CaliforniaSurfer]

Is Ari Ben the school where you sit in the baggage compartment during other students' flights and log PIC time?

Just kidding, but I've heard some controversy regarding this school?

Surf

[bumflip]

[aloft]

No controversy, same thing people bag on ATP for--people who don't understand how the FARs could possibly permit two pilots to log PIC simultaneously.

Ari-Ben's got essentially the same program as ATP, minus the Citation rides. ATP however, has quite an established business offering add-on programs, particularly ATP certificates for military and other pilots headed for the majors, and with 22 offices offering these programs, they have a greater demand for instructors than Ari-Ben. For me, that's the main thing; I can get my certificates anywhere, but where do I have the best shot at a job doing nothing but advanced instruction? There as well, the edge goes to ATP. Also, as Socal pointed out, the contacts ATP's instructors make for that next job are as valuable as being an FSI grad.

[Luftpost]

I am now a CFI at Ari Ben. Finished last Thursday and already have a student.

Following is a post of mine from several weeks ago in the FBO thread....

************************************************** *******
I am a current student (working on CFII & single add-on).

Before moving my family 1/2 way across the country, I "interviewed" various schools. The "Aviator" (as it is know locally), was my last stop, and sealed the deal.

In seven months time, and 25G's later, I have gone from Multi Private to MEI. I arrived with my Private single. Had there not been some delays in my training (not due to the school), I could have progressed faster. The 6 months that they advertise is realistic if you are motivated and disciplined.

As far as two pilots logging PIC during the "time building phase", please review FAR's 61.51 (e)(1)(iii), then review 91.109 (b)(1)&(2). Additionally, John King endorses the method. If you have the joint King/Cessna "Cleared For Approach" book, please look at section 14-7 under "Safety Pilot". The Aviator operates under these regulations. Hardly illegal!

Jetcareers helped me define my flight training path. Thanks Doug!!! I too was a bit turned off by some of the negative feedback that I had read. Without a visit to the school, you are doing yourself a disservice. The instructors are very knowledgeable, anxious to teach, and do not have an attitude. There are no "in house examiners" for any checkrides. CFI's apply at the FSDO.

About the aircraft. They are not fabric covered. Yes they are older, but so are most GA planes out there. They are very well maintained, yet not as shinny as the ones across the field or at FSA in Vero. The interiors are not leather, or even pleather. I don't care. The cigar lighter is placarded inop.

The O-360's run when you want them to, and don't when you don't. I did have to make an actual SE landing once when I could not get it to restart. But that is what flight training is all about. What better environment to experience these situations in.

When my future employer looks through my logbook, is he going to ask me what year the Duchess was, or if it was waxed regularly?? I do know that he will be impressed with the plethora of multi time that will bite him in the nose, compared to my measly single time. In the time I have been here, I have had only one occasion in which I had to cancel a flight due to MX, and not been able to get another aircraft. Bottom line, the aircraft are safe!

Perhaps the biggest frustration to me at the school is the fuel truck. You can see a picture of it on their web site. Its a real piece of work, having a personality all its own, requiring MX often. They did however recently acquire another fuel tug that does help out. There are some funny stories about the truck. A mx guy fuels the aircraft most of the time, other times it is up to the students to fuel themselves.

There are students and instructors who started their training at other schools, and jumped ship to the Aviator. Some of whom are teaching there now. I assume business is good as there are more cars than parking spaces during weekdays.

There is not much overhead as far as staff, buildings, etc. It is a small operation. Therefore, costs to the student remain reasonable.

I am not an employee, just a satisfied customer.

Base you decision on actual visits to schools. Talk to instructors, students, mx people. Talk to them where they can speak freely (away from employing eyes and ears)

This is my contribution to this site and it's readers. Prior to my Ari Ben Aviator days, I too relied on others personal experiences. Hope you find this informative and helpful.

Luftpost

************************************************** **
Others who have first hand knowledge of the school have also posted in the same area concerning the same subject.

[CaliforniaSurfer]

CMartin,

I didn't mean anything by it. I can't speak for others, but I do understand how two pilots can log PIC on a single flight.

The MEI is in the right FRONT seat, right?

Surf

[bumflip]

[robair73]

ATP just felt better to me. I felt more comfortable and confident about ATP. I like the idea of actual X-country trips. The maintenance is what really sold me on ATP. It's superior to Ari-Ben's. It gives me piece of mind when I'm up in the air. Now I'm not saying that Ari-Ben flies rusty tin cans, but their aircraft aren't up to par with ATP's. Having that said, that doesn't gaurantee that nothing will happen when I'm up in the air. I just feel more confident with them. I had a limit on what I wanted to spend on my aviation education and Ari-Ben and ATP fit nicely into my budget. After I did some figuring, Ari-Ben would have saved me 7 grand for private pilot on. To get down to it, the main reasons I chose ATP over Ari-Ben were (in order) - #1 Maintenence, #2 Flying actual X-country, #3 Nice living quarters, #4 Gauranteed price, #5 Numerous locations across the nation, #6 Airline connections, #7 Citation ride

[robair73]

How come everytime I try to make paragraphs it never shows up in my post. For some reason I can't get space between paragraphs. What's the deal?

[bumflip]

[blee256]

Whats so big about the citation ride? Its nice, but I would rather have my tuition shrink by a couple grand and not have the citation flight.

Cmartin,
So whats up? Are you going to Ari-Ben after all? And, if ATP offered VA bennies, would you still choose to go to Ari-Ben over ATP? Because I could see why you would that would make a big difference. BTW, how does VA benefits work? Is it free money? or is it a loan with a very very low interest rate? Do tell.

But I must say Ari-ben does sound tempting, 10K cheaper, Formal ground school for Intrument, and you're in a house with your own room. hhmmm...

-Brian

[CaliforniaSurfer]

So, that MEI's sit in the back seat? You have two students up front?

That just doesn't seem right. How does the MEI get to log any multi time? I know that two pilots can log PIC on a single flight, but 3?

Thanks, Mr. Martin....

Surf

[Luftpost]

[ QUOTE ]
So, that MEI's sit in the back seat? You have two students up front?


[/ QUOTE ]
Where did this thought ever come from??? The only time you have more than two people in the aircraft, the third is sitting in the back (back seating), flying for free, gaining experience, but not logging a thing. It is soley for experience, and up to the student to request.

If you have an MEI and a properly rated student, both log PIC. It's that simple. And that is what every flight school in the world does.

Please read my above lengthy post for clarification to logging PIC durring the time building phase.

[CaliforniaSurfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Where did this thought ever come from???

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, actually, I think the MEI sits in the back seat!

[/ QUOTE ]

I got that thought from CMartin...it must have been sarcasm...grrrr.

Surf

[robair73]

The Citation ride was not and I repeat was not a major contributing factor in my decision. That's why I listed it last. It's a nice little perk, as you may.

I've heard about bad customer service with ATP on these boards before. I wonder why that is. I haven't experienced that yet. Everyone has been more than helpful with me. What happened to you CMART?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Customer Service could be related to customer attitude or many petty things. My last visit to FSI was pretty bad until I walked into the administrative, behind where visitors are really "encouraged to go on their own" and met with one of the students working in the marketing department.

I stood in the lobby for 20 minutes and then the finance/loan person I talked to wasn't very friendly.

Does this mean that FSI is a bad school? I doubt it... look at their reputation not to mention the way students and instructors give in reviews. The best thing I feel like I can do, and I've been looking at lots of schools, is talk to the students and instructors.

I live in Vero Beach, FL, which is fairly central to a few schools mentioned and I plan to visit the Ari Ben Aviator School this weekend, now that I read about it on here. I will give a full assessment asap.

Sorry this is anonymous but for some reason, my browser won't allow me to post any messages while logged in.

[pure_IMC]

Technically, you can pile as many mei's in the back of a dutchess and they all can log pic. The fars have a lot to be interpreted, thats why I hate them, but this is the truth. As long as the mei does some type of instruction from the back, he can log it. "hey student, watch your altitude." That is PIC. Sad but true.

[aloft]

Got a reg cite for that?

[sbav8r]

The way people justify it is by having one person under the hood, one safety pilot, and an instructor in the back. You will not be able to find a reg stating that this is legal however, the regs are vague enough that people use as a loop hole. I've heard of this at a school in PHX and we asked the FSDO about it. For all I know they may have put a stop to it.

[bumflip]

[Dubbs42]

What about "safety pilot" in the back seat? What do the FARs say about that? Actually, what is the real definition of the "safety pilot"? Look out for traffic?

[Vyse]

Under the old rules, it was possible for an ATP to log any time in which he was designated as PIC of the aircraft. So, under the old regs, an ATP could sit in the back seat and log PIC as the designated PIC of the flight, while the student logged PIC as "sole manipulator" and a CFI in the front right seat logged PIC as instruction given.

However, FAR 61.51.e.2 now states that an ATP can only log time while acting as PIC "of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate." So this loophole should be closed now.

-Hank

[ananoman]

To Dubbs42, A safety pilot must be a rated pilot in the aircraft, in this case private multi-engine. It is not necessary to be instrument rated. They must also have access to the controls, so you cannot sit in the back seat. You can log PIC time if you agree with the pilot that you are the PIC of the flight. This means that if anything happens that its your responsibility.

The person flying under the hood can log PIC because they are the "sole manipulator of the controls". If you are not instrument rated and are flying IFR, it would not be appropriate to log PIC if the flight is going to be in IMC. When logging safety pilot time, the entire flight time cannot be logged since only one pilot is required for start up, taxi, shut down, etc. Who ever does this time loggs it. It is true that this is a loophole in the regs, and it is legitimate to log some time this way, but it should be avoided in large amounts. Those who hire pilots will obviously not respect safety pilot time the same as being the legitimate PIC. So if you and your buddies want to rent a plane and shoot some approaches go for it, just don't rack up hundreds of hours and expect to get hired because you "have lots of time".

A CFI can also log PIC in the back seat since they are "providing instruction". So Person flying AC = PIC. Safety Pilot = PIC. Instructor in back seat = PIC. I would not log time in the back seat. There are schools who do this and the airlines know who they are. You will be laughed out of your interview.