Westwind's reputation

[phoenixflyer]

I'm not one to bad mouth anything, or anyone... but of the six people I knew well while at Westwind..... there are none left. I started in July 04 working on my instrument rating.. my first negative experience happened on the first day durring orientation. They had assembled a book pack for everyone that started in my class, it had every book "needed" (among the "needed" items were systems cd's for the skyhawk and seminole, they charged $139 each) to go through their right seat direct program. They told us to pull out all the books we already had so we wouldnt get charged for them.. but they wouldnt even give us 1 night to go home and see if we had them already.

Part of ir training at Westwind is going on dual crews to build time for commercial and required x-country for ir. I had been doing all my dual crews with my instructors other student.. it worked out well we did ground together, and rode along on eachothers flights with our instructor. One day after all our dual crews were done, the assistant chief flight instructor Wally Zinc told me I had to go on a dual crew with this guy who I wouldnt trust with a big wheel (he and I were in the same ir ground school class together, half the time he never showed up, when he was there he was asleep). I didnt think this was right... but I didnt say anything. The trip was set for 7am the next morning. I woke up at 6 and looked outside... it looked like low ceillings to me, so I went to the computer and looked at the metar for DVT, sure enough the ceillings were at 4000 and stayed that way all day. The next morning Wally Zinc took me into his office and tore me apart, telling me that the guy I was supposed to fly with waited for me for 2 hours. (I later found out he never showed up either) He told me I was on thin ice and that my time as a student was an interview for a future cfi job. We had some words with eachother... and I left for my flight with my instructor.

After working on my IR training for two months, I was up for my final stage check, which I had to repeat 3 times. Though the sylabus called for a 2 hour ground and 2 hour flight, I found the ground sessions lasting 4+ hours. On one of the stage checks I was failed for not knowing what was on the annunciator panel and what sets them off. After a total of 6 months and the 4th try at their stage check I left and went to AirSafety Flight Academy, after 2 flights with an instructor I went on my checkride. The DE said it was the best IR checkride he had been on in over a year. I felt good about that... but was pissed at Westwind for making me go through all that crap, keeping in mind that after everyone of my stagechecks I had to go back up with my instructor for recurrent training. Costing me about $8000 extra.

One of my good frineds at Westwind was having the same problem, he spent 7 months and 54,000 on his private and instrument. After his instrument checkride he left and joined me at AirSafety Flight Academy. My flight instrucor left shortly after I did, not to go to an airline but to teach at Sabena flight academy. My other 3 friends left after their commercial ratings. One is driving a truck, the other is flying the bush in Alaska.

My experience with Westwind was negative... overpriced (Im now flying brand new Cirrus for about $10 more/hour). The structure is a joke, its more like a monarchy. They consider the airlines their customers, not the students. The people in control dont have any stake in company, which is as bad a business model there is.

[CLR4ILS]

Everything you have said sounds pretty much true to the word about Worstwind. That is typical at that school. The school has issues and I am surprised it has lasted this long.

I normally wouldn't wish ill will on any business (being a business owner myself) BUT......I would love to see them go out of business. Mostly because that would mean that they wouldn't be screwing the students anymore....


I hate to say it but your post also sounds like an ad for Airsafety. However, if Airsafety is treating you like a customer and providing good qaulity training then by all means....talk them up...

ILS

[phoenixflyer]

hehehe.... I didn't mean to make it sound like an ad.... The owner of airsafety used to be a partner at westwind.... I think he learned a few things from that experience about how the students/customers should be treated. Also... I fly the most bada$$ ga airplane in the world (cirrus sr-22)... at 172 prices... That's probably why Im so enthusiastic about my school.

[CLR4ILS]

Nice A/C........ I spoke with the owner of Airsafety about a year ago. He offered me a job. Said he needed some good MEI's. Unfortunatley, instructor pay is far to low for my needs, otherwise, I would have been there in a second to instruct in the Cirrus.

Have fun with your training.

ILS

[phoenixflyer]

this is true.. there is only one mei.... but thats kind of a moot point.. since our duchess is down anyway....

[CLR4ILS]

I was going to buy a nice Seminole and lease it back to a school like Airsafety. Hefty payment though if it is not flying at least 50 hours a month. I am currently looking at a Warrior II with a nice panel (HSI,RMI and a decent GPS). Already have a school to take it online. How is the Duchess (when it is running)? I haven't flown one of those.

ILS

[phoenixflyer]

I prefer the duchess to the seminole... its like a little king air, lots of room. They bought a garmin 430, new interior, refinished gauges & instruments... when it comes back online it should be pretty sweet.

[turbinesurgeon]

I can't believe Wastewind is still in business, I wouldn't wish that place on my worst enemy. They are probably only in business from all the students they ripped off. There is no accountability for their instructors, so they can milk you out for as much as they want. I would get all of these horror stories from former WW students looking to complete their training at our FBO. One student has spent 25,000 and he was still a student pilot, even if this guy sucked where is the accountability? How does it get out of hand? I talked to a foreign student who was going for his CFI and had spent almost 100,000. It is absolutly ridiculous. I say boycott them.

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by turbinesurgeon

I can't believe Wastewind is still in business, I wouldn't wish that place on my worst enemy. They are probably only in business from all the students they ripped off. There is no accountability for their instructors, so they can milk you out for as much as they want. I would get all of these horror stories from former WW students looking to complete their training at our FBO. One student has spent 25,000 and he was still a student pilot, even if this guy sucked where is the accountability? How does it get out of hand? I talked to a foreign student who was going for his CFI and had spent almost 100,000. It is absolutly ridiculous. I say boycott them.

I met a girl from there that was at $60,000 and still hadn't finished her multi private (4th rating). The school is run by a bunch of idiots. The head people do not care about their reputation as long as the next student comes through the door to rip off. The Cheif Pilot is not qualified, nor does he have the knowledge and attention to detail to run that school.

They will close eventually..

ILS

[turbinesurgeon]

Originally Posted by CLR4ILS

I met a girl from there that was at $60,000 and still hadn't finished her multi private (4th rating). The school is run by a bunch of idiots. The head people do not care about their reputation as long as the next student comes through the door to rip off. The Cheif Pilot is not qualified, nor does he have the knowledge and attention to detail to run that school.

They will close eventually..

ILS

I hope you are right about the school closing. They also really tried to push that key bank loan on me and to deposite it all in their account right away. I declined it. I guess they charge that loan a couple grand when you leave without finishing the right seat program. And what does that right seat program get you? barely in the right seat of a beat up 172, what a joke.

[NewbieAirlinePilot]

Originally Posted by CLR4ILS

I met a girl from there that was at $60,000 and still hadn't finished her multi private (4th rating). The school is run by a bunch of idiots. The head people do not care about their reputation as long as the next student comes through the door to rip off. The Cheif Pilot is not qualified, nor does he have the knowledge and attention to detail to run that school.

They will close eventually..

ILS

Your quote is not true because they do not do private multi licenses for the professional program. Get your facts right before you start talking bad about a program.

How do you know the people who run the school? Have you been a student there? Did you work there? Did you ever even meet the people who run the school? If you go to flight safety, how could you possibly know about the school from there?

You statements seem a little unwarranted and look to be just trying to boast your own program while tearing down others.

[250blue]

Originally Posted by turbinesurgeon

I hope you are right about the school closing. They also really tried to push that key bank loan on me and to deposite it all in their account right away. I declined it. I guess they charge that loan a couple grand when you leave without finishing the right seat program. And what does that right seat program get you? barely in the right seat of a beat up 172, what a joke.

Not true. They don't charge you s***t if you leave (Pan AM across the street did at one time, don't know if they still do).

Also, that loan is for you to control (as I did). I took it as I saw fit and deposited it on that basis - if you feel pressured to do something you don't want to then that is a personal problem. As for the Right Seat Program, all it did for me was get me a great job, as well as most of my successful friends that came out of there (6 I can think of are Captains by now). You've got to realize that no one is going to get you a job and hold your hand. You take control of your own training, build connections, pound the pavement and take it in the direction you want it to go. Isn't that what a Captain is all about anyway?

I'm sure FSI and other schools are great and they have good reputations, but there is no reason to bag on a place that has worked out well for most of us. While I was there, I saw many students who I knew shouldn't be allowed to Captain a UPS truck much less an airplane, and those were the guys complaining all the time. I'm glad they were weeded out and moved on to something else, that's a hard lesson they learned. I think this school worked best for those who could take control of their own destiny and did not need much guidance. If I felt there was something I didn't agree with, I flat out didn't do it. Don't know much about what is going on there now as I haven't been there for about a year and a half. Good Luck to Everyone!!!

[NewbieAirlinePilot]

Originally Posted by 250blue

Not true. They don't charge you s***t if you leave (Pan AM across the street did at one time, don't know if they still do).

Also, that loan is for you to control (as I did). I took it as I saw fit and deposited it on that basis - if you feel pressured to do something you don't want to then that is a personal problem. As for the Right Seat Program, all it did for me was get me a great job, as well as most of my successful friends that came out of there (6 I can think of are Captains by now). You've got to realize that no one is going to get you a job and hold your hand. You take control of your own training, build connections, pound the pavement and take it in the direction you want it to go. Isn't that what a Captain is all about anyway?

I'm sure FSI and other schools are great and they have good reputations, but there is no reason to bag on a place that has worked out well for most of us. While I was there, I saw many students who I knew shouldn't be allowed to Captain a UPS truck much less an airplane, and those were the guys complaining all the time. I'm glad they were weeded out and moved on to something else, that's a hard lesson they learned. I think this school worked best for those who could take control of their own destiny and did not need much guidance. If I felt there was something I didn't agree with, I flat out didn't do it. Don't know much about what is going on there now as I haven't been there for about a year and a half. Good Luck to Everyone!!!

Your thoughts are right on. PanAm does charge you around $2k if you leave early, while Westwind never charged anyone for leaving early.

Flight training is what you make it. You have to work hard and study even harder. No one is going to hand you anything. Some people WILL wash out, those are just the facts. Like you said earlier, some people shouldn't even drive a truck, those people do get weeded out. The ones that make it through are the ones who worked the hardest.

I never have visited FSI either, so I can't talk about them good or bad. However just on reputation it is a good place, little more expensive than you need to pay, but good. I think its crazy for someone from FSI to talk bad about any school if they have never been there, and only hear from the washouts at each school.

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by NewbieAirlinePilot

Your quote is not true because they do not do private multi licenses for the professional program. Get your facts right before you start talking bad about a program.

How do you know the people who run the school? Have you been a student there? Did you work there? Did you ever even meet the people who run the school? If you go to flight safety, how could you possibly know about the school from there?

You statements seem a little unwarranted and look to be just trying to boast your own program while tearing down others.

UNFORTUNATLEY........ I was a student there for ONE rating. That was all I needed to see of the school. The girl who was at nearly $60K was on her fourth rating. I would know since I studied with her several times. She had only completed her PPL, Inst, Comm, and MPPL when she hit that dollar amount.

As for the owners, Chief Pilot, and director of Stands...... I knew everyone of them and they are the reasons the school will close eventually.

If you are a new student there...... Good luck!

ILS

[CRJ279]

I remember you, was there at about the same time as you were. You are one of those people who are never wrong. It would have been nice if you would have put as much effort into your training as you did into your whinning. You did not want to be there, your wife moved you for a job. In your eyes Westwind never had a chance.
Dont get me wrong you are a pretty good guy from what i remember but damn. Training is what you make of it.

[Champcar]

pwned

[NewbieAirlinePilot]

Originally Posted by CRJ279

I remember you, was there at about the same time as you were. You are one of those people who are never wrong. It would have been nice if you would have put as much effort into your training as you did into your whinning. You did not want to be there, your wife moved you for a job. In your eyes Westwind never had a chance.
Dont get me wrong you are a pretty good guy from what i remember but damn. Training is what you make of it.

I think we all know who that is also. Is that a beer in the left hand?

[meritflyer]

HA HA HA! Dee Pinkston with a beer and an airplane, whats next Jim Pitman with a hooker?

[NewbieAirlinePilot]

haha... i don't think there is as much of a chance of that happening as a beer in dee's hand, but if you could find me a picture, i would like to see ...

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by CRJ279

I remember you, was there at about the same time as you were. You are one of those people who are never wrong. It would have been nice if you would have put as much effort into your training as you did into your whinning. You did not want to be there, your wife moved you for a job. In your eyes Westwind never had a chance.
Dont get me wrong you are a pretty good guy from what i remember but damn. Training is what you make of it.

Well, you must have me mistaken for someone else. Unless you (CRJ279) are the acting Chief Pilot. For he and one of the old owners are the only ones that I ever got into a conflict with due to the bad training and of course, all of the cancelled flights due to MX.

The training and the structure of the school was some of the worst I had ever seen. Not to mention watching the Chief pilot and director of stands fight EVERY day.

The MX was terrible and flights were CONSTANTLY cancelled because of it.

Don't tell me about putting more effort into my training. I finished up at FSA with a 94% average on ALL written, oral, and flight exams. I recieved 3 letters of outstanding achievment from the Chief Pilot to boot....

At Westwind I had the highest grade in the class on the final (100%), and did very well on my checkride with June Bonesteel....

You are right about one thing though... you will only get out what you put into the training. However, you must have the right tools and guidance (ie. your instructor, Chief Pilot, A/C, syllabus, SOP etc...) to get the job done right. Unfortunatley, Westwind could not provide that and still can't from what I hear....

Nice try...


ILS

[CRJ279]

No Im not the Chief I was an Instructor there. MX happens, it has happened everywhere that i have worked from the schools to the airlines.


Westwind did great for me and to be honest I was glad to see you leave. You had a way of manipulating the facts to fit your needs and you still do.

A 100% on the written test, all i can say is you must have had a terrible instrutor to pass your exams and a checkride with June.

Yep sounds like they really screwed you, get over yourself.

Originally Posted by CLR4ILS

Well, you must have me mistaken for someone else. Unless you (CRJ279) are the acting Chief Pilot. For he and one of the old owners are the only ones that I ever got into a conflict with due to the bad training and of course, all of the cancelled flights due to MX.

The training and the structure of the school was some of the worst I had ever seen. Not to mention watching the Chief pilot and director of stands fight EVERY day.

The MX was terrible and flights were CONSTANTLY cancelled because of it.

Don't tell me about putting more effort into my training. I finished up at FSA with a 94% average on ALL written, oral, and flight exams. I recieved 3 letters of outstanding achievment from the Chief Pilot to boot....

At Westwind I had the highest grade in the class on the final (100%), and did very well on my checkride with June Bonesteel....

You are right about one thing though... you will only get out what you put into the training. However, you must have the right tools and guidance (ie. your instructor, Chief Pilot, A/C, syllabus, SOP etc...) to get the job done right. Unfortunatley, Westwind could not provide that and still can't from what I hear....

Nice try...


ILS

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by CRJ279

No Im not the Chief I was an Instructor there. MX happens, it has happened everywhere that i have worked from the schools to the airlines.


Westwind did great for me and to be honest I was glad to see you leave. You had a way of manipulating the facts to fit your needs and you still do.

A 100% on the written test, all i can say is you must have had a terrible instrutor to pass your exams and a checkride with June.

Yep sounds like they really screwed you, get over yourself.

It was for CFI and I attribute my success on that exam and ride to what I learned from Flight Safety during the CIME program there prior to attending WestWind. Not to mention that I had to use the CFI syllabus and checklists for the A/C to include the maneuvers from Flight Safety because Westwinds sucked and/or they didn't have one.

MX HAPPENS????? Not like that my friend. I had 13 cancelled flights during one rating and the first flight on my CFI ride cancelled for their crappy MX. Yeah, a three week delay between flights during your right seat transition is OK huh? This is where Jerry Dilk and Jim Pitman should have shined by taking care of things and all they did was make empty promises to correct the situation. Jerry Dilk said he would pay for any and all review flights during this MX problem. Never saw the credit to the account.


Glad to see me leave? You don't even know me. Last post you had me confused with someone else. Let me remind you that there were three former students from FSA that moved out west and gave WW a shot. Let me also remind you that all three ran for the door because Westwind could not even come close to the training we recieved as FSA and the training and business practices were for crap at Westwind.

Do not try to blow sunshine up my A _ _ or anyone elses. The school has screwed alot of people and is now paying for it by the lack of students there. They will close eventually.

It's no wonder they sold the FBO side and hanger of the company to bale the company out. They know they can make more by screwing flight students...

Your right..... Enough Said....

ILS

[turbinesurgeon]

Originally Posted by 250blue

Not true. They don't charge you s***t if you leave (Pan AM across the street did at one time, don't know if they still do).

Also, that loan is for you to control (as I did). I took it as I saw fit and deposited it on that basis - if you feel pressured to do something you don't want to then that is a personal problem. As for the Right Seat Program, all it did for me was get me a great job, as well as most of my successful friends that came out of there (6 I can think of are Captains by now). You've got to realize that no one is going to get you a job and hold your hand. You take control of your own training, build connections, pound the pavement and take it in the direction you want it to go. Isn't that what a Captain is all about anyway?

I'm sure FSI and other schools are great and they have good reputations, but there is no reason to bag on a place that has worked out well for most of us. While I was there, I saw many students who I knew shouldn't be allowed to Captain a UPS truck much less an airplane, and those were the guys complaining all the time. I'm glad they were weeded out and moved on to something else, that's a hard lesson they learned. I think this school worked best for those who could take control of their own destiny and did not need much guidance. If I felt there was something I didn't agree with, I flat out didn't do it. Don't know much about what is going on there now as I haven't been there for about a year and a half. Good Luck to Everyone!!!

I took control of my own destiny and left that place. Now I have a great 121 job. I never once put Wastewind on my resume. People ask me where I got my ratings and I just say a small FBO. I saw enough over there to draw my own conclusions.

[CRJ279]

Originally Posted by CLR4ILS

It was for CFI and I attribute my success on that exam and ride to what I learned from Flight Safety during the CIME program there prior to attending WestWind. Not to mention that I had to use the CFI syllabus and checklists for the A/C to include the maneuvers from Flight Safety because Westwinds sucked and/or they didn't have one.

MX HAPPENS????? Not like that my friend. I had 13 cancelled flights during one rating and the first flight on my CFI ride cancelled for their crappy MX. Yeah, a three week delay between flights during your right seat transition is OK huh? This is where Jerry Dilk and Jim Pitman should have shined by taking care of things and all they did was make empty promises to correct the situation. Jerry Dilk said he would pay for any and all review flights during this MX problem. Never saw the credit to the account.


Glad to see me leave? You don't even know me. Last post you had me confused with someone else. Let me remind you that there were three former students from FSA that moved out west and gave WW a shot. Let me also remind you that all three ran for the door because Westwind could not even come close to the training we recieved as FSA and the training and business practices were for crap at Westwind.

Do not try to blow sunshine up my A _ _ or anyone elses. The school has screwed alot of people and is now paying for it by the lack of students there. They will close eventually.

It's no wonder they sold the FBO side and hanger of the company to bale the company out. They know they can make more by screwing flight students...

Your right..... Enough Said....

ILS

Fuel and MX were sold. Ron did not bail out on anything, he is old. I could be wrong about who you are but i dont think so. Jerry was a blow hard sack of Sh--, we all know that. Mx problems do happen, for whatever reason. If he offered a something he should have followed through. WSA was hurt by his BS and I was glad to see him go.

Im not blowing sunshine anywhere.
this is getting pretty old, were not going to agree on this. I had a great expirence there and im sorry that you did not.

[Chopshop]

Well it's obvious westwind or worstwind as somepeople call it is finally getting what they deserve. Go walk around the place and it is a ghost town. What you get at westwind is a mortgage payment with no house, nice uniform, waste of money CRM training by people who have never worked at an airline, a job with no students which is that really a job?? and a bunch of useless books they scam you with when you start your training. They make it sound like they have all these connections when in reality anyone could call airnet or mesa and get a job on their own; they act like airlines really care where you did your flight training. Poor management and a slowing in american flight training are going to kill that place. When I went there they used the king CD's and syllabus, didn't even have their own until I was a CFI and called it a professional flight program. The only thing I have to thank westwind for is I did make a lot of very good friends and they all have the same viewpoint as me.