Pan Am / Student Experience

[JimmyDean]

Hi all,

Since no one is currently playing the role of Pan Am guinea pig, I thought I'd throw my two cents in on the student experience. I'll try to keep a running log of what's going on in my training, and - of course - any prospective students with questions about Pan Am are welcome to fire away.

I can understand the many members who say that you don't need a "professional academy" to receive training to prepare you for a professional career. This is true, but the reasons I chose Pan Am over an FBO are the structure, resources, and stability that a large academy offers. I chose Pan Am over the other major academies for a number of reasons, many of them personal, but mainly because of their location, the professionalism I sensed at the academy, and the upfront attitude of the people I met there. So, long story short, I am happy to share my experiences, but please don't start any flaming of any of the academies. I want this to be a useful tool for people looking to start their professional pilot careers.

I'm currently enrolled in the Pan Am Career Pilot program at Deer Valley Airport in Phoenix. I finished the Private Pilot module of the program this past weekend. My instrument training starts this week.

SO FAR, my experiences have been mostly positive. The training has been very professional and moderately paced. My instructor has had three students at most, and was able to schedule me nearly every day, many times twice a day. I had one lesson cancelled due to weather (thunderstorms along route). Ground school was three weeks, three hours a day, in a class of seven.

One of the things that drew me to Pan Am was the new fleet of Pipers, and I have not been disappointed... yet. I have had no flights cancelled due to maintenance - the one time an issue arose, I was able to get a different aircraft within the hour. The maintenance department is very clean and the planes are in generally excellent condition. ONE CAVEAT: the "air conditioning" the school hypes is mostly bogus. All the planes are equipped with AC, but at any given time only 1/3 of the fleet has operating AC. Pan Am says this is because "Piper can't make the parts fast enough." I have no idea whether this claim is legit.

I am excited to start instrument training, and will keep you updated as I go. And, like I said, any and all questions are welcome!

JimmyDean

[MikeD]

Check The Flying Turkey's thread. He started from scratch there with a log of how his training went. Might be a good reference to let you know what's ahead with yours.

[JimmyDean]

I have been trying to catch up with all of the previous content in this forum (there's quite a lot of it), especially The Flying Turkey's log. JC and posters like Turk were a valuable resource in my own choice of where to train. Hopefully I can provide the same for others looking into schools like Pan Am.

Since The Flying Turkey is now flying the line for Piedmont, I can provide some updated information on what's going on here. Also... I know some of the ups and downs of all the schools have probably been discussed in depth in many other threads, so I apologize if I dig up some dead ones.

Update: IR training starts tomorrow with Sim orientation. IR Groundschool starts Monday the 26th.

[JimmyDean]

There have been a number of fairly recent changes in the Pan Am career pilot program that are going to affect current and new students. The school is in the process of converting all new students to the Part 141 curriculum. This is necessary (I believe) because Key Bank will only issue loans to schools that are Title IV accredited. The Part 141 program is the only one that can receive Title IV certification.

Furthermore, the Part 141 syllabus has recently been revised. The Instrument and Commercial programs are now combined into a 79 mission syllabus, broken up into seven phases in three parts. The first part of the syllabus covers the Instrument rating. The second part covers the Commercial Multi-Engine license. The Commercial Single is no longer a part of the intitial program, but can be added on during CFI training. The third part is the Crew Resource Management program. The "route training" is no longer offered as part of the career pilot program (replaced by CRM).

The new syllabus provides additional Dual IFR time (to over 70 hours) and reduces the total time (to about 220 hours) compared with the old program. The increase in Instrument time is a nice addition, since airlines place a heavy emphasis on Instrument competency.

My guess is that this move is designed to mimic the success ATP has had with their Multi-heavy program. Can't be long until we start to see glass cockpit training, too.

[gomntwins]

[ QUOTE ]

ONE CAVEAT: the "air conditioning" the school hypes is mostly bogus. All the planes are equipped with AC, but at any given time only 1/3 of the fleet has operating AC. Pan Am says this is because "Piper can't make the parts fast enough." I have no idea whether this claim is legit.



[/ QUOTE ]

Their claim is correct. I work at a school that has the same issue and that's what the mechanics tell me as well (the mechanics and myself are good friends so I trust 'em). Guess Piper's still recovering from last years hurricane season.

[TheFlyingTurkey]

The air conditioning issue exsisted at the FPR campus way before last years hurricanes. It was icing on the cake if I got to instruct in an airplane with A/C. Dont know who's fault it was Pan Am or Piper.

[TheFlyingTurkey]

Its good to see another student pick up where I left off. Should be good reading...

[JimmyDean]

Instrument training has been going well. Flight Simulator and a joystick are the best $50 investment I've made in the program so far!

Most of the initial IR training is split between the Frasca FTD and flights in the Archer. The sim is useful because you can look at a record of your flight - see if you're flying the patterns correctly, etc. Plus it provides realistic-looking system failures so you can see what to expect if you ever have to fly "actual" partial panel.

My instructor tuned me in to a couple of maintenance seminars put on by the head of the maintenance department this past weekend. Pretty cool to see some of the requirements they have to jump through hoops for. And since we're on the topic of A/C... found out that Pan Am is in the process of applying to the FAA to replace the Piper A/C condensers with another type. I guess this will allow them to put most of the A/C units back in service.

[JimmyDean]

Instrument training continues. Passed my first IR stage check on Friday, so my instructor is introducing me to DME arcs and holds. All going well and cheaper than most of the PPL training because a good amount can be done in the sim.

Unfortunately, it looks like one of my classmates is on the verge of failing out. Got his 2nd pink slip for the PPL yesterday. I can't imagine spending so much time and money and failing the checkride - twice! Hope the third time's a charm for him.

[JimmyDean]

Got some actual IMC time today... very rare in AZ. Bumped the regular mission up to a cross-country to Prescott. Good to be able to jump on the opportunity to see the "real thing." Back to basics tomorrow!

[JimmyDean]

Things have been busy recently, but not much new going on. Just sharpening instrument techniques before starting approaches.

The good news is that I am ahead of schedule and (so far) under budget.

I read recently that another "Pan Am" aviation academy is operating in Beijing, China. According to the best source I could find here, the other school is borrowing the name, but is not affiliated. Hopefully this will not affect the Chinese contract students who are training here. I'm counting on the large number of int'l contract students when I start to instruct - helps make the instructor-student ratio more favorable.

[JimmyDean]

Still busy training for the instrument rating as we are starting cross-country flights and shooting approaches all over the valley. Looks like things should be wrapping up around the third week in November. Ground school ended last week.

I noticed a new post on an old thread in this forum about multi time-building. From what I understand, the multi "route training" portion is no longer included in the program. It can still be added on as an option, but if the airlines are going to ignore the time, I see no reason to drop the money on it.

[RedCFI]

Obviously you didn't read the post thoroughly. Be smart use the route program to build time towards your commercial requirements, but hey don't take advice from guys that have been there done that I wouldn't of when I was going through training. By the way does DVT still have that really cute head of scheduling girl, I can't remember her name to save my life but she drove a jeep. She was awesome, used to always hook us up w/planes when we were ferrying them in/out and for the KLM stuff.

[Lima_Charlie]

Originally Posted by JimmyDean

Still busy training for the instrument rating as we are starting cross-country flights and shooting approaches all over the valley. Looks like things should be wrapping up around the third week in November. Ground school ended last week.

I noticed a new post on an old thread in this forum about multi time-building. From what I understand, the multi "route training" portion is no longer included in the program. It can still be added on as an option, but if the airlines are going to ignore the time, I see no reason to drop the money on it.

JD is correct. No more route for anyone coming into the program. About 50 hrs will built in through the CPLME program. In addition the initial CFI rating is done in the Seminole as well. The remaining time needed to get someone over the 100hr hump is to be built whilst instructing.

LC

[JimmyDean]

Originally Posted by RedCFI

Obviously you didn't read the post thoroughly. Be smart use the route program to build time towards your commercial requirements, but hey don't take advice from guys that have been there done that I wouldn't of when I was going through training.

After thoroughly re-reading the post I am still quite certain that route is no longer part of the program.

[JimmyDean]

Just completed my 250nm cross-country this week, out to California (my first time there!) and back for a whopping 8 hour day. Got some quality actual time and had to go missed a couple times in San Diego. It's mostly time-building now, my checkride should be sometime this coming week, definitely before Thanksgiving. That's just about two months total for the rating.

I just wanted to clarify: Pan Am is currently still doing the route program, but only for students who are still on the old syllabus. The new all-part 141 syllabus, which is necessary for the school to receive Title IV status (req'd by Key Bank to continue distributing loans), does not include the route program. This syllabus includes the necessary time for the commercial rating in the instrument module. I believe you can still add route on as an option to the new 141 syllabus, but I'm not sure.

Wondering if anyone at other schools is seeing the same shift away from "safety-pilot" multi time?

[dakovich]

in response to that classmate who got two pink slips; when i was there we had a guy who failed every checkride, some twice (thats a lot of pink slips). he went on to instruct at Panam, and now flys for a Regional.

[JimmyDean]

Originally Posted by dakovich

in response to that classmate who got two pink slips; when i was there we had a guy who failed every checkride, some twice (thats a lot of pink slips). he went on to instruct at Panam, and now flys for a Regional.

Fortunately, he did end up passing his third attempt, and is now about halfway through the instrument rating.

[JimmyDean]

Sorry for the long gap between posts... hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving.

I passed my Instrument checkride yesterday! It took a little longer than I had hoped - about 11 weeks. It turns out the new syllabus was approved with minimum hour requirements that I came up a little short on. These hours are then combined with the CPL module to meet the commercial mins. So, long story short, I had to spend the weekend before Thanksgiving in a simulator for 5 hours. Not the most fun, but I was able to practice a lot of approaches - many that I'll probably never do in the airplane.

The upside is, I now start flying the Seminole! The next rating is Commercial Multi (no Commercial Single until CFI training), so the remainder of my time requirements for CPL will be fulfilled in the twin.

For those of you who are wondering, here are my hour totals since starting at Pan Am in August:

143 hours total
121 hours dual
99 hours PIC
66 hours cross-country
67 hours instrument (3.3 actual)

...all in the Archer. Can't wait to get my feet wet in the twin!

[DE727UPS]

What have you spent so far?

[JimmyDean]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

What have you spent so far?

I guess that's the $100,000 question... literally!

For the time totals in the above post, plus 22 hours FTD time:

$18,800 for aircraft/FTD rental (that's about $131 per hour Archer/FTD)
$8,600 for instruction (I'll explain this below)

So that's $27,400 TOTAL spent since August. Before everybody gets their panties in a bunch, I'll be the first to admit that this is much more than I would have spent training Part 61 at an FBO. But, as I said in the very first post, I didn't come to Pan Am because it's the cheapest. I'm here because I think it's the best fit for what I wanted in a training academy, and so far I'm happy with what I've spent. I know many of you have less than favorable opinions of Pan Am and other "academy" style training programs... please don't start a flame war over this.

That said, the way the school calculates instruction time is total bunk. Students are charged 1.6 times the time spent in the aircraft as "brief" time. This is supposed to include all the instruction in the aircraft, plus a pre- and post-flight brief. Of course, the CFIs only see pennies on the dollar of what Pan Am charges for instruction. The official line on this brief charge is that it helps cover all the administration costs. I'd rather have an upfront cost for admin so I don't have to look at the outrageous brief totals on my dispatch receipt after every flight!

I am going to meet with the financial aid coordinator this week, so I'll have updated numbers on the new Part 141 program total cost if anyone is interested. SO FAR I think I'm a little under budget, but the big-money Seminole flights are coming up this month.

[DE727UPS]

"I didn't come to Pan Am because it's the cheapest. I'm here because I think it's the best fit for what I wanted in a training academy"

Interesting how you said that...

More power to ya.

[JimmyDean]

Thanks. I think this post from Doug sums up my feelings about training...

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

There are a thousand ways to 'skin a cat' in the aviation world.

There are large FBO's, small "mom & pop" schools, flight academies, collegiate aviation, the military, etc.

Which way is the best way? Personally, I think the US military "Undergraduate Pilot Training" because the price is right and you're going to fly way cooler things than you'll ever have a chance to in the civilian sector. Plus, you'll be a 'known quantity' candidate and you can pretty much write your own ticket in the aviation world when there's hiring going on.

It depends on the student. Some students will thrive in a small FBO environment, some other students have the resources and desire to go to a flight academy.

Which is better?

Neither.

Flight academies are a lot of money, FBO's have far lower costs and lower prices. Some flight academies offer CL-65 prep... You don't need it, the airlines don't require it, but if it's something you're interested in and want to do, go for it if you've got the financial resources. The multi-engine rating I earned at ERAU was the same multi-engine rating that I could have earned at Falcon Air for a lot less.

However both environments offer different tools to different students.

A couple examples. I'm a big fan of ATP, but ATP isn't for a casual student who likes to be spoonfed and coddled like a child. The student has to arrive prepared, motivated and ready to learn or they're going to whip his ass and then he's going to show up on the forum later complaining about he got cheated out of two extra hours of extra training in the Seminole where in fact he came to training flights unprepared on several occasions.

I'm a 5-year ERAU grad. It was a lot of money, I spent a lot of time and cash doing things that amounted to more or less dumping hoardes of cash into a roaring fire.

Would I go to ERAU again? No, but considering the networking contacts, the people I met and friends that I made, I'd certainly at least hang out there on the weekends and sponge sponge sponge.

If I had stayed in Tulare and trained at the (now defunct) Gryphon School of Aviation (where I got my private), I wouldn't have met Mike Lewis/Copaman, MikeD, Joe E (not a member of the website), Bogberto, Craig Funk, Art Draut, Fred Cone, etc -- all of the people that helped me get to where I am today in their own ways.

Yeah, I complained about Riddle, spoke of the Riddle run-a-round, and I still do, but I still stayed. Looking back, considering I was pretty wet behind the ears and largely immature, it actually worked for me. I didn't have the support network that you guys enjoy. My only contact with an actual pilot was my high school counselor's husband who was an out of work four-timed furloughed Inland Empire Airlines metroliner FO who more or less told me to "...run, don't walk, away from this field, but I can answer a couple of questions".

So knowing what I know now, would I go back to ERAU? No.

But would I be where I am today not meeting the aforementioned people? Probably not.

Catch-22.

...

Flight training is 'transporation' of sorts.

There are Hondas and Acuras.

They're both cars. They'll both drive 65 mph on highway 101 with safety, efficiency and comfort.

Some folks might want leather seats.

Some folks might want cloth seats.

Acuras have some built-in features that Hondas drivers don't see or have a need for. Is the Acura a waste of money? Maybe, maybe not. Both brands have what you need however, the brands present a different product.

I live in Arizona. I may not need the heated leather seats that come standard in the Acura, but the Acura driver who spent more for the heated leather seats isn't necessarily a dumbass, especially if he lives in Michigan.

It's Doug's world, we just live in it.

I like the training I am receiving here, and I feel that the academy setting provides the most "tools" for my style of learning. I chose a flying career after I had already enrolled in a liberal arts college, so the university track wasn't for me. And a few minor medical problems meant the military was a no-go. So that left FBO training and the big "pilot farm" academies. I like the structure here and I'm happy with my training. I'm sure it would have been cheaper at an FBO, or even at Westwind across the parking lot, but I like the product that Pan Am offers. So $27,000 later, I'm halfway to a CPL , and things are going well. Hope that gives anyone interested out there some insight!

[sherpa]

Originally Posted by JimmyDean

Thanks. I think this post from Doug sums up my feelings about training...



It's Doug's world, we just live in it.

I like the training I am receiving here, and I feel that the academy setting provides the most "tools" for my style of learning. I chose a flying career after I had already enrolled in a liberal arts college, so the university track wasn't for me. And a few minor medical problems meant the military was a no-go. So that left FBO training and the big "pilot farm" academies. I like the structure here and I'm happy with my training. I'm sure it would have been cheaper at an FBO, or even at Westwind across the parking lot, but I like the product that Pan Am offers. So $27,000 later, I'm halfway to a CPL , and things are going well. Hope that gives anyone interested out there some insight!

well i work at an airline and can't tell you how many pilots here have loan payments about half the size of mine, got done twice as fast and are at the same job, same seniority and have the same pay as me who went to pan am and paid twice as much.

i mean if you are rich or have access to a lot of money pan am is great. ifyou are not rich and have to pay your own way, it is a really dumb idea to go to pan am.

Go to ATP, get done quickly, pay much less get on a seniority list faster. that is what is important.

[JimmyDean]

Originally Posted by sherpa

well i work at an airline and can't tell you how many pilots here have loan payments about half the size of mine, got done twice as fast and are at the same job, same seniority and have the same pay as me who went to pan am and paid twice as much.

i mean if you are rich or have access to a lot of money pan am is great. ifyou are not rich and have to pay your own way, it is a really dumb idea to go to pan am.

Go to ATP, get done quickly, pay much less get on a seniority list faster. that is what is important.

Thanks for your post. I hope everyone had a nice holiday.

A lot of former Pan Am students share the same feelings about their alma mater. The common theme seems to be that Pan Am's promise of "10 months to hire" never materialized, and they feel jilted. I think if the same promise came my way, and it took me 3 years, I would feel jilted, too. However, I didn't expect to be in a job in 10 months, I expeced to be finished with the training in 10 months. After that, I can stay here and instruct to build time, or go elsewhere. That's where the 10 months can turn into 3 years, and I was fully aware of that when I signed on the dotted line. It sounds like the real problem was those marketing geniuses setting everyone up to get pissed off. Things are better now.

Trust me, the financial aspect was a huge element in choosing a school, but it wasn't the only one. I understand you think I have made a "dumb" decision. I know I could have attended ATP (or any respectable FBO) for less than I will spend at Pan Am. But so far, I am on budget and on schedule, so they've held up their end of the bargain.

As far as training goes, I passed my first multi stage check before the holiday break. In another two weeks, I should be ready for the full CPL/multi checkride. Now that I'm back in town I'll be sure to keep everyone posted!