0 time looking for good school

[trvlr]

Will try keeping this to the point.
Looking between Ari Ben and ATP. Will be going in about 1yr. Finishing up bachlor in AV management and have A&P certs.
Looking to go from 0 time throught professional pilot prog and instruct.
Is this program structured or are you expected to get it done on your own?? I know for example ATP says 5 months.

Couple questions:
How many students does the school take on at once
Hows scheduling work
# hours CFIs are getting monthly
$$ CFI make
Aircraft up to date w/ avionics (know ATP have nicer aircraft)
Professional atmosphere
Hanger and living accomodation up to snuff
Are students being sucessfully hired
How long does Mike let you stay and instruct


Anything else I should coinsider, or something that makes this program awsome!!!

thx for all info

[kailuaboy]

[ QUOTE ]
Couple questions:
1. How many students does the school take on at once
2. Hows scheduling work
3. # hours CFIs are getting monthly
4. $$ CFI make
5. Aircraft up to date w/ avionics (know ATP have nicer aircraft)
6. Professional atmosphere
7. Hanger and living accomodation up to snuff
8. Are students being sucessfully hired
9. How long does Mike let you stay and instruct

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Dont know, maybe somewhere between 65-90 (MAYBE, it all depends how many students we have here)
2. Between you and your Instructor. The instructor schedules it.
3. I currently am averaging between 120-130/month (around 100 of it is multi)
4. This all depends on how motivated the instructor is and how many students they currently have (anywhere between $300 - $1200)
5. We have 3 of our multi-engine aircraft with GPS. Rumer has it, we should be getting GPS in all the aircraft soon. Some Autopilot works, some have radar in it.
6. Yes
7. The owner just aquired the PanAm living quaters, so, you will have your own bedroom (HUGE), and own bathroom (all fully-furnished). Theres a pool and tenis courts there too. And its on the airport, so, if you dont have a car, or dont want to spend gas money, your pretty much set.
8. Each student who goes through the Pro-Course is initially hired (if you want) as an instructor. You will get one or two students to start, so Mike (the owner) can see how you do. In the next few weeks, the most senior instructor here will have less than 700hrs Total time. All the instructors here are getting hired after only working for 8-12 months as an instructor.
9. As long as you like. Its not bad working here. You get alot of hours, as long as your willing to actually be at the airport and work (ground and flight). He's pretty desperate for instructors (and 99% of the time, hires ONLY students who went through his Pro-Course).


Hope this was good information.
Its late, i need sleep.
Ivan

[BrettInLJ]

[ QUOTE ]

7. The owner just aquired the PanAm living quaters, so, you will have your own bedroom (HUGE), and own bathroom (all fully-furnished). Theres a pool and tenis courts there too. And its on the airport, so, if you dont have a car, or dont want to spend gas money, your pretty much set.
...

9. As long as you like. Its not bad working here. You get alot of hours, as long as your willing to actually be at the airport and work (ground and flight). He's pretty desperate for instructors (and 99% of the time, hires ONLY students who went through his Pro-Course).
Ivan

[/ QUOTE ]

On these two points, do you know if you need to reserve early to get a room, and how early? What happened to the Pan Am students, is the school shrinking or did they get new digs?

And, is it really 99% of the time for hiring Pro students, meaning a person like myself should not even get his hopes up a little bit about staying there after completing his CFI ratings? I did notice he posted some job opportunities on the web site for CFI's.

Edit: Nevermind on the Pan Am question, just read the threads about them moving to AZ.

[kailuaboy]

Yes, its really true. As long as you go through the Pro Course you will get a job. For insurance purposes, flight instructors need a minimum of 200hrs multi time. So, its obvious he doesnt get much cfis from the outside.... Ive only seen 3 from the outside that he hired.

Ivan

[RPM]

[ QUOTE ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Couple questions:
1. How many students does the school take on at once
2. Hows scheduling work
3. # hours CFIs are getting monthly
4. $$ CFI make
5. Aircraft up to date w/ avionics (know ATP have nicer aircraft)
6. Professional atmosphere
7. Hanger and living accomodation up to snuff
8. Are students being sucessfully hired
9. How long does Mike let you stay and instruct


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



1. Dont know, maybe somewhere between 65-90 (MAYBE, it all depends how many students we have here)
2. Between you and your Instructor. The instructor schedules it.
3. I currently am averaging between 120-130/month (around 100 of it is multi)
4. This all depends on how motivated the instructor is and how many students they currently have (anywhere between $300 - $1200)
5. We have 3 of our multi-engine aircraft with GPS. Rumer has it, we should be getting GPS in all the aircraft soon. Some Autopilot works, some have radar in it.
6. Yes
7. The owner just aquired the PanAm living quaters, so, you will have your own bedroom (HUGE), and own bathroom (all fully-furnished). Theres a pool and tenis courts there too. And its on the airport, so, if you dont have a car, or dont want to spend gas money, your pretty much set.
8. Each student who goes through the Pro-Course is initially hired (if you want) as an instructor. You will get one or two students to start, so Mike (the owner) can see how you do. In the next few weeks, the most senior instructor here will have less than 700hrs Total time. All the instructors here are getting hired after only working for 8-12 months as an instructor.
9. As long as you like. Its not bad working here. You get alot of hours, as long as your willing to actually be at the airport and work (ground and flight). He's pretty desperate for instructors (and 99% of the time, hires ONLY students who went through his Pro-Course).



[/ QUOTE ]

Ivan, How can you possibly say that the Aviator has a professional atmosphere with a straight face?

That place is the most un-professional operation that I have EVER seen. Scheduling is f-d up, maintenance is f-d up, things are finally starting to get computerized, files and paperwork are constantly lost... people constantly stealing planes from others, erasing names/flights, not coming back when their supposed to. You have to make sure certain people have had their 20 smoke breaks before you can risk talking to them or you might get your head chewed off! Flights get cancelled/bumped/mx issues, do you get a simple phone call so you don't waste your time driving all the way to the airport...of course not, that would be way to difficult.

In my time at the aviator I would say I probably lost at least 30-35 flights, maybe more due to M/X, people erasing names off the schedule and other BS!

and don't even get me started on squawking airplanes for M/X reasons....Mike tells you to write stuff up when it breaks, like you SHOULD for the safety of others. Then when you do, you get called in and get yelled at for downing planes! Its absolutely rediculous. Sure I understand certain little things shouldn't down an airplane but when your flaps don't work properly, tires are severly cupped and showing chords, radios not working, oil pouring out of the prop hubs, control columns sticking, seats busted so bad your ass falls through to the floor on final....the ######ers need to be downed before someone gets killed!

I had a flight in an aircraft to an area up North that only had NDB and LOC/DME approaches in the area. Ceilings had rapidly come down below minimums all across the area. If we had known the ADF, DME, HSI and Radios were having problems and had been written up multiple times and been completely disregarded we would have NEVER taken that airplane into an area with IFR conditions. It turned into a bad situation coming in on our first NDB approach to mins. when the ADF quit working, next approach attempt was a LOC, that wasn't working of course, then to another alternate with a VOR/DME...we'll great, the DME just quit working when we need it to use the lower minimums we need to break out, the CDI is sticking and reading erratically and now our radios are intermittant and starting to cut out....oh and did I mention that our POS transponder wasn't working anymore either. What a fun day that was...we did what we had to do to get on the ground and luckily without incident... but it could have been a BAD situation that would have been easily avoided if the Aviator would FIX ##### the first time when they KNOW DAMN WELL ITS BROKE! At least placard the junk inop and make the damn plane VFR only.

One good thing at the Aviator is you get good training in real emergency situations and equipment/instrument failures a lot.

I learned a lot at the aviator...not really from instructors but more from the timebuilding phase and having to deal with problems and crap equipment constantly in the IFR environment.

I got what I paid for, cheap multi-time....there still is no better deal out there unfortunately, I would probably still recommend the place to get some cheap multi then get the hell out. ATP has a better program though, it costs more but its run MUCH better, you WILL finish on time, and the planes are maintained MUCH better.







[ QUOTE ]
Yes, its really true. As long as you go through the Pro Course you will get a job.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah sure, unless you are lied to by Mike like I was! I went through the pro-course then made special arrangements with Mike to go elsewhere for the CFI ratings, since the CFI program at the Aviator is a total cluster###### and takes months....people were taking 4-8 months just to get through their 3 CFI ratings (not including all the other ratings) and I did NOT have the time or patience for that crap!

Anyway, I went in and talked with Mike to see if he had a problem with me going somewhere else to get my CFI ratings, I told him my timeframe concerns I had with his screwed up CFI program and he said that he had NO problem with me going elsewhere and I would still have a CFI job when I got back. I would NOT have done it otherwise...the CFI job was one of the main reasons I chose Aviator. When I got back he freaked out, yelled for a few days and pretty much denied the conversation we had before I left and he completely wasted my time for a freakin month....what an [censored]! I guess he would rather hire people who fail their CFI check- rides MULTIPLE times...what a joke! I feel sorry for the new students who get those guys.

Luckily things worked out and I got a MUCH better flying gig back home at a place that has turbine aircraft! Screw you Mike, I don't need your stinkin death-trap duchess job!

peace out fellow aviatorians....see ya at the airports around the country! and watch out those of you in my fantasy football league, I be kicking your asses this season!

I'll leave you with a quote from the owner Mike Cohen. This was from the last Aviator meeting I was at, A student asked Mike if he ever takes a duchess up for fun. Mike said- "are you crazy, I won't fly that junk!" The funny thing is he was serious!

[AFdude411]

RPM,

Dude are you serious? Is the wait still up to 8 months for the CFI ratings? If so, that's BS and false advertising.

Your post seems to have swayed my opinion of the Aviator. For a while now, I've been stuck between the Aviator and ATP. After reading that, I just inched closer to ATP.

If you had to do it all over again would you? Or would you go to ATP instead?

Levon

[RPM]

Levon, I edited my post and added more...i'll send you a pm when I get time.

[ QUOTE ]
and don't even get me started on squawking airplanes for M/X reasons....Mike tells you to write stuff up when it breaks, like you SHOULD for the safety of others. Then when you do, you get called in and get yelled at for downing planes! Its absolutely rediculous. Sure I understand certain little things shouldn't down an airplane but when your flaps don't work properly, tires are severly cupped and showing chords, radios not working, oil pouring out of the prop hubs, control columns sticking, seats busted so bad your ass falls through to the floor on final....the ######ers need to be downed before someone gets killed!

I had a flight in an aircraft to an area up North that only had NDB and LOC/DME approaches in the area. Ceilings had rapidly come down below minimums all across the area. If we had known the ADF, DME, HSI and Radios were having problems and had been written up multiple times and been completely disregarded we would have NEVER taken that airplane into an area with IFR conditions. It turned into a bad situation coming in on our first NDB approach to mins. when the ADF quit working, next approach attempt was a LOC, that wasn't working of course, then to another alternate with a VOR/DME...we'll great, the DME just quit working when we need it to use the lower minimums we need to break out, the CDI is sticking and reading erratically and now our radios are intermittant and starting to cut out....oh and did I mention that our POS transponder wasn't working anymore either. What a fun day that was...we did what we had to do to get on the ground and luckily without incident... but it could have been a BAD situation that would have been easily avoided if the Aviator would FIX ##### the first time when they KNOW DAMN WELL ITS BROKE! At least placard the junk inop and make the damn plane VFR only.



[/ QUOTE ]

I forgot to add that we couldn't do the published missed approaches OR the holds either when we wen't missed because of instrument problems....it took some work with center to finally get us vectored into another airport safely. That reminds me - I should fill out a NASA form for that one. Now I can really see how easily aviation accidents happen from cascading problems like this one...I feel like I learned more THAT DAY about what TO do and what NOT to do in that kind of a situation then my entire previous training.

[AFdude411]

RPM,

HOLY [censored] DUDE... wow..

I cant say that I'm not too supprised. I know that the school isnt run professionally. I took the tour last month and was not too impressed, but the aircraft maintainer side of me says that their mx practices are not cool. Especially when you make a squack and they yell at you.. I wont stand for that. I've been maintaining aircraft for almost 6 years now and will not let that happen to me.

[ShoreFly]

AFdude,

I won't add any opinions to this but I won't sugarcoat it either.

The average time to go from Commercial Pilot to your Initial Instructor Checkride is 3-4 months. Some shorter, some longer, but the problem is due, largely in part, to the lack of instructor availability because this rating requires a two-year CFI to teach.

ATP does have a quick program, but quite a few students come to the Aviator from ATP, saying that they didn't learn much, and after teaching a few them, I believe it. Keep in mind that you cannot use your hard-earned VA benefits at ATP.

You have to look at the comments in this thread while keeping the following in mind...who's writing it.

kailuaboy is a current Aviator Instructor and he's looking for students, hours, and Management's praise as he posts comments on this forum. If he's reluctant to write anything negative, its because there's a lot of motivation to focus on the positive. Some or all of which may be true.

RPM sounds like a guy that got screwed, however I'm not totally aware of his situation. He has a tendency to focus on the negative, again, some or all of which may be true.

As for me, I've recently left after instructing at the school, and completing the entire Pro-Course from zero time. Let's just say I have no ill-will towards the school, but I can play Monday-morning quarterback 'till I'm blue in the face. The school has it's unique problems, and somewhere in between the positive and negative you'll find the truth.

Lastly, as a former crew chief, I feel the same way about mx. The biggest gripe I had while flying at this school is very poor documentation. I would write something up and it either wouldn't get fixed, or the problem would reappear somewhere down the road. If each aircraft had an AFTO 781 binder, the "K" (delayed discrepancies list) was updated, and the pilot's had the ability to review recent write-ups before each flight, mx wouldn't be an issue at all, and RPM's aforementioned IFR situation would've been avoided. It's definitely far from AF or airline standards here, but wherever you end up doing your flight training you'll be wishing for better.

Good luck!
SF

[RPM]

Its not just me either, I have a LOT of friends there that were reamed for squawking planes.... my roomate about a week ago was called AT HOME and yelled at, and then called into the office to talk about how he was "downing to many airplanes"

its total [censored]! FIX YOUR AIRPLANES and people won't have to squawk them every day!

A LOT of those duchesses should be made VFR only until properly fixed!

Its pretty sad that the only time everything is fixed is when someone happens to go to the Orlando FSDO for a CFI checkride and it HAS to be made airworthy because an FAA inspector will be looking it over.

Some of the problems I had during my time at Aviator: multiple instrument failures, flap failure, flaps sticking down, radio failures, gear problems, engines cutting out on take-off roll, problems with props feathering, seats breaking through to the floor, massive oil leaks, throttle handle broke, lost ALL interior instrument lights at night IFR...thank god for flashlights, lost a left brake at high speed and almost wrecked, left gear buckled but somehow didn't colapse, people after me lost both brakes on 90M ( after telling MX and supposedly being fixed) ...I hate that plane, I swear it tried to kill me a bunch of times. control column sticking...don't EVER fly 44T....and probably much more, thats just off the top of my head.

Carry a big roll of ducktape,a good flashlight, and a cell phone every where you go!

I have luckily never had a complete engine failure in flight...but I did have times where we couldn't get a re-start after intentionally shutting one down.

On a positive note, I definately DID learn from all these problems and I know they made me a better pilot...I will be well prepared for the 135 world of night IFR (a lot of guys joke about that here, after flying the aviator junk you can handle anything! ) ....but damn, it sucks having to deal with all that crap all the time...I really do believe its just a matter of time until someone is killed here, and there is a lot of people that agree with me on that one.

[BrettInLJ]

That is a very strong statement to make, RPM. Duchesses are old aircraft. Do you believe the situation would be different at a ho-dunk mom and pop FBO that has a single duchess for training? In other words, is it reall a problem with the school, or the nature of an old aircraft that will always have something wrong with it, and fixing everything is cost prohibitive?

[RPM]

[ QUOTE ]
kailuaboy is a current Aviator Instructor and he's looking for students, hours, and Management's praise as he posts comments on this forum. If he's reluctant to write anything negative, its because there's a lot of motivation to focus on the positive. Some or all of which may be true.



[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, that is why I am finally getting some of this stuff out in the open...I was reluctant to speak my mind on a public forum before because it would endanger my CFI job...but since that isn't an issue anymore I'm gonna tell it like it is!


I don't think I focus on the negative, just some of this stuff about the aviator being all sugar and spice and everything nice is total crap. People are reluctant to speak their minds because management can read this stuff and it can hurt your CFI career.


The aviator does have some good points...cheap multi, nice housing, the ability to learn on your own ( I hate classrooms) and I made some good friends, met some girls, and overall had a lot of fun.


Really, I'm not bitter about going to the Aviator...I'm still happy with my decision. It was pretty much what I expected and was warned about, but i'm a little crazy so it didn't bother me as much as some people...and I paid what I was quoted, no extra.


Honestly I would probably go to ATP now just because I think you can make up the price difference with the shorter timeframe. The extra months of rent/living expenses at the Aviator pretty much closes the cost gap between the two schools.

[RPM]

[ QUOTE ]
That is a very strong statement to make, RPM. Duchesses are old aircraft. Do you believe the situation would be different at a ho-dunk mom and pop FBO that has a single duchess for training? In other words, is it reall a problem with the school, or the nature of an old aircraft that will always have something wrong with it, and fixing everything is cost prohibitive?

[/ QUOTE ]

umm, I don't really know....my only experience is at my first FBO, when something broke it was fixed promptly.

Sure, its because the planes are old as hell and flying constantly...i'm not saying that the maintenence guys don't know what their doing, because they do, I have NEVER had an engine failure in flight. They are just pressured to do things as cheaply, quickly and halfassed as possible to get the plane back in the air and making money. There is soooo many times I have been out in MX hanging out talking with Ed and Steve and Mike comes along bitching up a storm about a repair that was being done because it didn't "really need" to be done or because it was expensive. The last week I was there Mike came out to MX and threw a fit with Ed about fixing the nose gear on the Arrow...the bearings were completely shot and there was about an inch of slop in the front nose gear...Mike thought it could still "go for a while"...and it was to expensive and time consuming to fix. It got fixed still after an arguement but you get the idea...this happens on a daily basis.

The MX guys are good guys and will stand up for you on a safety issue....the problem is definately not with them. My recomendation to any students is getting to be friends with the MX guys and going directly to them when you have a MX problem, at least for their advice if nothing else... writing the plane up will usually do nothing unless its a SERIOUS problem.

[RPM]

[ QUOTE ]
Lastly, as a former crew chief, I feel the same way about mx. The biggest gripe I had while flying at this school is very poor documentation. I would write something up and it either wouldn't get fixed, or the problem would reappear somewhere down the road. If each aircraft had an AFTO 781 binder, the "K" (delayed discrepancies list) was updated, and the pilot's had the ability to review recent write-ups before each flight, mx wouldn't be an issue at all, and RPM's aforementioned IFR situation would've been avoided. It's definitely far from AF or airline standards here, but wherever you end up doing your flight training you'll be wishing for better

[/ QUOTE ]

[project7]

[ QUOTE ]
Duchesses are old aircraft. Do you believe the situation would be different at a ho-dunk mom and pop FBO that has a single duchess for training?

[/ QUOTE ]

Many people (especially those who are new to aviation) have the misconception that aircraft are like cars, in that older ones break down a lot and new ones will run well regardless of how they are treated. The reality is that as long as an aircraft is well maintained, it's age doesn't really matter (to an extent). There are plenty of safe, well maintained duchesses out there and there are some not so safe new seminoles out there. An aircraft from the late 70's is not old, I fly them everyday and I actually prefer a well-maintained older aircraft to a newer poorly maintained one.

[kailuaboy]

WOW.... thats alot to read.

Hmmmm, where to start.

Ive been instructing since March and have only had to cancel less than 10 times (im serious to). Ask my students (Dustin, Mario, John H., Brett G., Han, etc.). I rarely have to cancel.

Yes, the planes go down for maintance ALL the time. They are flown (litaraly) "24" hours a day. You can take the planes anytime you want. That being said, its a matter of statistics (if you think about it). Each plane is eventually gonna go down for maintanance.

The planes I like (26Z, 65U, 2ER, 28Y). For the most part, those planes are up. Unless its a Monday (maintance is off on Sundays, sometimes).

It is a professional environment (for the most part). Every business has its downfalls. Just like, no human is perfect. But, I would say that I DO enjoy working here and have NEVER been yelled at by maintenance, ever. No one from maintenance has ever questioned any of my squaks. If they have, I dont know about it.

Just wondering, but if you require Navigational aids for IFR flight (and you obviously had to have a VOR thats working), why couldnt you shoot the LOC? What was wrong with it, that it just happened to not work at that moment?


As for the CFI thing. Unfortunatly, you came at the wrong time. Alex kinda dwindled out of the picture (as being the only CFI left over 2 years). But, then we got Jessica, who knocked out quite a few MEIs real fast and things have been able to move more smoothly now (as far as I can see). My roommate was fortunate to get with Jessica and pass on his first attempt. Yes, he had to wait; but I dont think he regrets it at all.

As for us needing two year CFIs. Well, the initial instructor rating is now 141, so we dont need two year CFIs anymore. In fact, our entire program is supposed to be ALL 141 soon.

Now, for me being an instructor here and trying to get kudos from admin..... I dont care. Im not coming on here to make them happy and to get more students. Im coming on here to be able to give out information about the school and the environment to people who wish to pursue a flying career.

I wish I knew about jetcareers before I even came out here. Would anything on here have changed my mind.... absolutely NOT. I came all the way from Hawaii and never even visited here once. I have never even been to florida before coming here. The only information I knew, was my own research about the different schools. And I trusted my judgement and am well pleased with my descision.

I hope this thread can be used as not to slader any one person, but to open ones mind to see that ..... ok.... now this is starting to sound gay.... lol.... Im done talking....

[RPM]

[ QUOTE ]
but if you require Navigational aids for IFR flight (and you obviously had to have a VOR thats working), why couldnt you shoot the LOC? What was wrong with it, that it just happened to not work at that moment?


[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, we had a VOR that was working, the VOR was not on the field though it was 25 miles away, there was only an NDB and our ADF "appeared" to be working at the time. We were getting vectors to intercept the LOC when we were told last minute that it quit working. I don't know what was wrong with it, there was no Notams or anything. That was a ground problem though, not ours...and that was our 1st approach not 2nd like I said earlier....sorry it was a while ago and I don't remember it all.

[ QUOTE ]
Ive been instructing since March and have only had to cancel less than 10 times (im serious to). Ask my students (Dustin, Mario, John H., Brett G., Han, etc.). I rarely have to cancel.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you got lucky then because that certainly wasn't the case for me and my roomates early in the year. It seems like they may have fixed some of the problems with all the planes being down at once like they use to be so it probably isn't as bad now.

[AP2B]

Thanks for the post kailuaboy. I think that's great that you did your own research and made your decision from Hawaii. I will be at Aviator when the time and $$$ is right. I had yet to hear one bad thing about Ari Ben before this thread. I was really kind of shocked. I've talked to Mike a couple of times and I read these threads all the time. I'm sure anyone could have a seemingly bad experience anywhere at any givin time. There is a whole underlying story behind this thread. Definetly some bad blood. I might come down and check out the Aviator ramp. Just for the heck of it, but my mind is made. CRAPPY DUTCHESSES HERE I COME!!!

[RPM]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say that I DO enjoy working here and have NEVER been yelled at by maintenance, ever. No one from maintenance has ever questioned any of my squaks. If they have, I dont know about it.



[/ QUOTE ]

I've NEVER been yelled at by MX either and I've NEVER had a problem with anyone in MX....their not the problem like I said above. MIKE is the one that will yell at you, call people at home to yell at them, and throw away sqawk sheets. Don't believe me? go to house #235 and ask them, they know what I'm talking about.

[ QUOTE ]

As for the CFI thing. Unfortunatly, you came at the wrong time. Alex kinda dwindled out of the picture (as being the only CFI left over 2 years). But, then we got Jessica, who knocked out quite a few MEIs real fast and things have been able to move more smoothly now (as far as I can see). My roommate was fortunate to get with Jessica and pass on his first attempt. Yes, he had to wait; but I dont think he regrets it at all.


[/ QUOTE ]
I am fully aware of the Alex, Pierre, Jessica situation....but I don't think its really any better now. My friend Kyle R. has been working on his MEI for over 3 months now in the "supposedly fixed CFI program", he finished Pierre's CFI class and is STILL waiting to fly....he hasn't flown ONCE yet. Thats not a problem?

They may have cut the wait down from 6 months to 4 but its still bad.

[RPM]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a whole underlying story behind this thread. Definetly some bad blood.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am still glad I went to Aviator, it was the best deal out there for me at the time, i'm not bitter about choosing this place. I still ended up getting the hours I needed to get another job....just trying to get the WHOLE truth out there.

[BrettInLJ]

So if the program is going to be 141 soon, then its not quite completely a "learn on your own" situation, right? If its 141 it would have a structured syllabus including ground lessons.

[TripleSticks]

I'll go ahead and throw my 2 cents out here too. Just because I was involved in some of the aformentioned situations.

First off. I wouldn't change my decision to go to Aviator either. But....

I finished my commercials in november 2004, finished the CFI ground school prior to leaving for Christmas break (2004) and.......Got my MEI on May 17th, 2005. 6 months AFTER I finished the CFI ground school.

Sounds pretty crappy, right. Well.... it was. I was stuck right in the middle of the situations that made getting the instructor rating done quickly a giant pain in the ass. There's no two ways about it..... it was a mess and didn't go smoothly at all. I ended up finishing up my training and getting a sign off from a DPE in the area.

It cost me at least 4 months in rent and some extra bucks to pay the DPE. I was ready for the oral LONG before I got any flying in because of the 2 year CFI mess.

Would I have gone to a different school.... looking back on it. No. But it still does chap my ass a bit.

Maintenance. You will miss flights. No doubt about it. Not because maintenance is bad or the people in maint don't know what they're doing. Just because the planes fly all day, every day. If one goes down you will never get another for your flight. It's scheduled already. Go home and study.

I squaked planes almost every time I flew and Mike would get a little pissy with me about it sometimes but I said the exact same thing to him every time. "Don't shoot the messenger"... and then I would walk away. Anyone can tell ya.... I'll squak the hell out of a plane. I once didn't fly one because it was missing a required placard that goes in between the fuel selectors and tells you that if the selector is in between notches it might not work. I stood there and waited till they made one with a lable maker and put it on. Think Mike was mad? Of course he was. Not because he wanted me to fly the plane illegally. Because he wanted the plane in the air. He's not making money if I'm on the ground bitching.

Anyway... He does get angry when planes go down. He wants them in the air. Wanna know why? Because he is a buisness man. Is there anything wrong with that? No. Of course not. He's not doing this because he loves to see people come in and trash his planes and houses all the time. He's doing this so he can retire fat and happy. Just like all the rest of us would if we were in his situation.

Regarding the flight that RPM is talking about where nothing would work. I was in the plane and that is the only time that I was completely furious with the squaking situation. I had squaked everything that went wrong in that plane many times before that day. Then when we get in to solid IFR with about 300-500 foot ceilings we had nothing working correctly.

For the record. We couldn't indentify the FAF or the MAP on a LOC approach because the ADF wouldn't work. We had to have center call our FAF and give us special missed instructions. Not cool. When we went missed we couldn't shoot the NDB approach.... obviously. We couldn't legally shoot the VOR/DME approach because the DME wouldn't work (and the missed was to the NDB) so we had center calling our stepdowns and FAF for that as well. It was a mess and when we got back I let quite a few people hear about it.

But..... the autopilot worked the whole trip and that was really nice.

Anyway. RPM has a beef (a legitimate one) so he's venting... and he has every right too. What he is saying is true. It's not a perfect place by any stretch. But I would not have made a different decision. You can't get the same kind of multi time and real life training anywhere else. Also... I don't think that Mike, or anyone else that works there, are bad people. In fact. I like them all... but they will also tell you that it's not the most professional place. That's just the way that it is.

For the prospective students going there. You will be dealing mostly with the instructors and the instructors definintely know what they're talking about. They are wonderfully qualified to teach you in those Duchesses. I would say that without a doubt in my mind. Every one of them has dealt with some kind of "emergency" situation in those planes. Maybe not a life or death emergency but one that required you to stay calm and use your training in a real life situation.

Wanna hear mine? The first hurricane last year came around and we had to evacuate. I got one of the planes that just came out of an annual. They flew it once and then I got in it and got it out of there. On that flight, every time I throttled back for landing I lost an engine ( can't remember which one). No big deal. You land single engine just like you have done 100 times before. Turned out a cable need to be adjusted. Not a biggy. But it's a real life thing and you get that training at the Aviator.

It's a good place. Just remember. Your not paying for the atmosphere of Flight Safety. You're paying for 200+ hours in a light twin..... and paying 50 grand less than you can get it at Flight Safety.

peace out,
j

[kailuaboy]

[ QUOTE ]
So if the program is going to be 141 soon, then its not quite completely a "learn on your own" situation, right? If its 141 it would have a structured syllabus including ground lessons.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you will have to do the ground lessons with your instructor.

I personally can not learn by anyone teaching me over and over and over again. I cant learn that way. I learn best by studying on my own. But, everyones different.

Personally, I think 141 courses should be used as a guideline for instructors, not a requirement to do EVERYTHING on that lesson, and REVIEW everything from before. Thats just too much in such little time. For instance, our course has the student going for a Private Multi in 10hrs. Thats kinda fast. I have a student now that is ready for his checkride, but needs to finish one lesson and complete his stage check with our cheif flight instructor, then hes ready for the checkride. By the time thats gonna happen he'll have only 15 hrs in the Duchess (which is average I think). But, 10 is too short. Its more structured to the perfect student.

[BrettInLJ]

Thank you for painting a realistic picture, imperfections and all. Everyone benefits from knowing the Cons as well as the Pros; it makes for happier students because they know what they are getting into, and have made an informed decision.

The only part of your post I disagree with was where you mentioned there is no other place to get the multiengine time and experience as Aviator. There are several places, each with its own different set of Pros and Cons. Each school fits a certain set of needs that particular pilots have in working toward their unique goals. Keep in mind, I have not visited these schools, save for the ATP Riverside location, so these opinions are just from asking questions, listening, and researching.

[trvlr]

Thank you all for your posts. It is truely educational. I guess what i got out of all of this is there will always be some complaints. No school is perfect.
Yes both programs (atp & aviator) do have ups and downs. Money is of coarse always a big one. I feel at this point with time being unfortunately wasted at the aviator is for many students a huge disappointment. I know I would not be so pleased knowing this going in. The money saved at the aviator seems as though it would be spend wasting time that could have been avoided in a more structured school.
I believe my decision has been made! Also being an a&p my safety will not be comprimised with shady equiptment. I will post further threads as soon as I visit ATP in Jax.
thx adam