Pan Am Open House on May 14th

[Lima_Charlie]

For those that are considering Pan Am, or are just curious about what is happening with Pan Am, an Open House has been planned for May 14th, 9am to 2pm at the Deer Valley campus in Phoenix, AZ. I believe that lunch will be provided. Drop me a PM if you would like to attend, and I will pass it on to the right people.

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
For those that are considering Pan Am, or are just curious about what is happening with Pan Am, an Open House has been planned for May 14th, 9am to 2pm at the Deer Valley campus in Phoenix, AZ. I believe that lunch will be provided. Drop me a PM if you would like to attend, and I will pass it on to the right people.

[/ QUOTE ]

I might be in town during that time. Would be interesting to visit and see what's what over there.

[Lima_Charlie]

I think that would be great! If you know where DVT is, then PA is pretty easy to find! Maybe you could swing by in the ole' 117, eh?? Maybe take a few up for a trip around the pattern??

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that would be great! If you know where DVT is, then PA is pretty easy to find! Maybe you could swing by in the ole' 117, eh?? Maybe take a few up for a trip around the pattern??

[/ QUOTE ]

Know where DVT is? I'm from there.

Dad still has his plane over in the east hangars on the south side.

I still remember when DVT was in the middle of nowhere way back when.......

[GatorFC]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you could swing by in the ole' 117, eh?? Maybe take a few up for a trip around the pattern??

[/ QUOTE ]Come on! We all know the F-117 is single-seat. If Mike wanted to carry any passengers he'd have to bring in the "Remora".

[Lima_Charlie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that would be great! If you know where DVT is, then PA is pretty easy to find! Maybe you could swing by in the ole' 117, eh?? Maybe take a few up for a trip around the pattern??

[/ QUOTE ]

Know where DVT is? I'm from there.

Dad still has his plane over in the east hangars on the south side.

I still remember when DVT was in the middle of nowhere way back when.......

[/ QUOTE ]

Some of the pictures they have hanging in the terminal are pretty interesting. DVT has alot history behind it...

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that would be great! If you know where DVT is, then PA is pretty easy to find! Maybe you could swing by in the ole' 117, eh?? Maybe take a few up for a trip around the pattern??

[/ QUOTE ]

Know where DVT is? I'm from there.

Dad still has his plane over in the east hangars on the south side.

I still remember when DVT was in the middle of nowhere way back when.......

[/ QUOTE ]

Some of the pictures they have hanging in the terminal are pretty interesting. DVT has alot history behind it...

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember when a few of those pics were taken! I remember when there was nothing on the north side of the field. Remember when there were no security fences to the east/west hangar areas. Remember when Cutter Aviation was Thunderbird Aviation, and the PAIFA buildings didn't even exist. Remember it being my first airport other than KPHX during my PPL training in 1986. Remember having to create my own instrument approach to let down into there one morning after an instant fog bank blanketed PHX during my traffic flight. Remember the movie "Cloud Dancer" with David Carridine, being filmed there. Remember numerous aircraft accidents and incidents happening there. And much, more.

[Lima_Charlie]

Did you ever get a chance to see the crash tests that they did into one of the hills at the eastern end?? That would have been pretty cool to witness...

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you ever get a chance to see the crash tests that they did into one of the hills at the eastern end?? That would have been pretty cool to witness...

[/ QUOTE ]

That was 1964, along with the Lockheed 1049 and the helos. Before my time, unfortunately. But......if you ever go hike out on the hills just east of 7th Street, off the extended centerline of 7R (the one with the red lights atop it, short of 25L), you can still find miniscule pieces of these planes remaining. I think there's a fence around this hill now, but I can still remember being able to off-road on it (like the dirt trails all over it).

[Lima_Charlie]

I guess that was a little before your time... I wasn't sure of when all that happened? Still lots of trails around there though...

[Lima_Charlie]

Just a bump to remind anyone that wants to see the campus to let me know. It is next weekend, and lunch is FREE!!!

[Sprint100]

Did the open house and loved it. Pan Am seems to be a great choice for a flight school. Once all the pros about the school are taken into consideration it seems the only negative could come from a personal experience/opinion. Too bad it wasn't more JCers there, that would have instantly turned some that don't like Pan Am into a transformer.
Some may say, oh it's cheaper at an FBO. Heck most FBO's are cheaper than academies so let's stick with the apples to apples comparison.
In fact, the cost to attend Pan Am wasn't too far off of other flight academies. Plus when it's all said and done, I would much rather get my training in newer equipment. Some like older equipment, but that's personal choice so I'll leave that one alone.

[DE727UPS]

Well...maybe you should start going there and let us know how great it is. Lord knows there is a lack positive posts here and at flightinfo towards Pan Am.

As for JCer's being transformed...I think there are way too many here, myself included, that know a better way. I certainly believe in my way because it worked for me and other people I know. If you went to Pan Am and were successful, I'm sure you'd believe in that as well. But until they change the way they market the place (be upfront on their website about the industry, for starters), I'm not interested in playing nice.

Glad you had a good time.

[Lima_Charlie]

[ QUOTE ]
Did the open house and loved it. Pan Am seems to be a great choice for a flight school. Once all the pros about the school are taken into consideration it seems the only negative could come from a personal experience/opinion. Too bad it wasn't more JCers there, that would have instantly turned some that don't like Pan Am into a transformer.
Some may say, oh it's cheaper at an FBO. Heck most FBO's are cheaper than academies so let's stick with the apples to apples comparison.
In fact, the cost to attend Pan Am wasn't too far off of other flight academies. Plus when it's all said and done, I would much rather get my training in newer equipment. Some like older equipment, but that's personal choice so I'll leave that one alone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad it was worth the time!! I was really hoping I could have made it, but I had a prior commitment. Did they talk about the program changes that being developed? I am curious how much detail is being shared at this point in the development phase...

Anyway, glad you enjoyed your visit.

[stuckingfk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Did the open house and loved it. Pan Am seems to be a great choice for a flight school. Once all the pros about the school are taken into consideration it seems the only negative could come from a personal experience/opinion. Too bad it wasn't more JCers there, that would have instantly turned some that don't like Pan Am into a transformer.
Some may say, oh it's cheaper at an FBO. Heck most FBO's are cheaper than academies so let's stick with the apples to apples comparison.
In fact, the cost to attend Pan Am wasn't too far off of other flight academies. Plus when it's all said and done, I would much rather get my training in newer equipment. Some like older equipment, but that's personal choice so I'll leave that one alone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad it was worth the time!! I was really hoping I could have made it, but I had a prior commitment. Did they talk about the program changes that being developed? I am curious how much detail is being shared at this point in the development phase...

Anyway, glad you enjoyed your visit.

[/ QUOTE ]


Just curious and no intentions of flaming, but what is PanAm changing?

thanks

[project7]

[ QUOTE ]
that would have instantly turned some that don't like Pan Am into a transformer.


[/ QUOTE ]

ooooooooooh, can I be Optimus Prime?

[Maximillian_Jenius]

[ QUOTE ]
Did they talk about the program changes that being developed? I am curious how much detail is being shared at this point in the development phase...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well as you well know I also attended yesterday's open house with Sprint100.
Yes it was a"Dog & Pony show" but it was a rather good informative one. Hopefully this doesn't come off as sounding rather arrogant but I didn't really come out of there knowing too much different then I had already known previously due to both being a JC regular and doing my own research!
What I did learn was that the program is kinda in flux.
Their changing it (as you had previously mentioned to me Lima) so as a student no longer has to take the instructor route. Instead he/she has the option to build time kinda like ATP's "Direct Track" program.
How much time needed depends on which regional of your choice and their current hiring minimums with Pan Am. I thought that was great for those wanting to skip the instructor option.
I can already hear Noles dad writing out a check and him packing up his things.
Also the program doesn't cost $80,000 it only cost $47,000 for PPL thru multi-engine. Not a real signifigant differnce in price compared to many FBO's which are charging $37-39k for their ratings package.
Now it does cost $13k in addition to the above mentioned $47k for ALL your instructor ratings kinda expensive seeing as you could get EVERYTHING done for $37,999 at ATP.
But honestly with thewhole Key Bank issue and them not being a title IV school who knows how much longer they might be around.
DE727UPS you will be surprised to know that they talked very openly,frankly and fairly about the current state of the industry.
Be it fuloughs,high oil prices,pensions being dissoved first year salaries for F/O's.Legacies in BK protection they didn't paint a rosey picture but simply gave the fact of the current industry you know a take it or leave it pitch!
Now while I thought it a very good open house I can say that I wasn't totally sold. But I was more open I would say to at least considering them as learning insitution.
But I have a few other schools and academies most notably ATP to checkout before I make a decsion. But Pan Am is definately on the shortlist.
Incidently....reading this post more then a few JC regualrs might think that I went over to the "darkside" well I didn't.
But I did tell this hot 19yr.old I trick I met last night while slappin his ass that I was his daddy....

-Matthew

[Maximillian_Jenius]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that would have instantly turned some that don't like Pan Am into a transformer.


[/ QUOTE ]

ooooooooooh, can I be Optimus Prime?

[/ QUOTE ]

Man it's all about Starscream!

-Matthew

[kellwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
Also the program doesn't cost $80,000 it only cost $47,000 for PPL thru multi-engine. Not a real signifigant differnce in price compared to many FBO's which are charging $37-39k for their ratings package.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd call $8-10K significant. Then again, I'm broke.

In the end, it all boils down to personal preference and what works best for the individual. I'm not a believer of ONLY getting a quality training experience at an academy. I've had too much experience to the contrary with FBOs, so I tend to get defensive when someone says or implies that. Although looking at Air Orlando's new "pricing," I think they're starting to price themselves out of the market. Some people prefer to fly newer equipment and spend the money that goes along with that. Once again, that's their choice, and not one I would make myself. I'd rather use that extra money to pay off debts, put a downpayment on a house or sock it away for my kid's college. I'd love to fly newer equipment, but personally I'd rather get paid to fly it as an instructor than pay someone else to let me use it. $13K for instructor ratings, however, is a damn rip-off. Sorry, that's the only way I can put it. That's over twice what American Flyers, Skymates, ATP, etc quote.

I'm glad to see Pan Am taking a more realistic approach to the industry as far as recruiting goes, though. If they're comminicating honestly and openly at the open house, hopefully it's just a matter of time before the marketing materials on their flyers and website are change to reflect that. I don't agree with offering a "no instructor" track. I'm learning all about how little I actually know now that I'm studying for my CFI stuff, and I think it's really gonna help down the road. From the outside, a lot of people say "Sure, CFIs know tons about the regs, but what else do they learn other than how to fly from the right seat?" I can tell ya, regs are probably the SMALLEST part of what I'm learning right now......

[Sprint100]

[ QUOTE ]
Well...maybe you should start going there and let us know how great it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I do I definitely will!!!!
Right now it is between them and ATP. I like the flexibility of ATP's self-paced program, since I wouldn't mind working at the same time. One thing I don't need nor want is another $20,000+ in loans. If I could manage Pan Am without taking more than 19 grand in loans, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

[Lima_Charlie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also the program doesn't cost $80,000 it only cost $47,000 for PPL thru multi-engine. Not a real signifigant differnce in price compared to many FBO's which are charging $37-39k for their ratings package.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd call $8-10K significant. Then again, I'm broke.

In the end, it all boils down to personal preference and what works best for the individual. I'm not a believer of ONLY getting a quality training experience at an academy. I've had too much experience to the contrary with FBOs, so I tend to get defensive when someone says or implies that. Although looking at Air Orlando's new "pricing," I think they're starting to price themselves out of the market. Some people prefer to fly newer equipment and spend the money that goes along with that. Once again, that's their choice, and not one I would make myself. I'd rather use that extra money to pay off debts, put a downpayment on a house or sock it away for my kid's college. I'd love to fly newer equipment, but personally I'd rather get paid to fly it as an instructor than pay someone else to let me use it. $13K for instructor ratings, however, is a damn rip-off. Sorry, that's the only way I can put it. That's over twice what American Flyers, Skymates, ATP, etc quote.

I'm glad to see Pan Am taking a more realistic approach to the industry as far as recruiting goes, though. If they're comminicating honestly and openly at the open house, hopefully it's just a matter of time before the marketing materials on their flyers and website are change to reflect that. I don't agree with offering a "no instructor" track. I'm learning all about how little I actually know now that I'm studying for my CFI stuff, and I think it's really gonna help down the road. From the outside, a lot of people say "Sure, CFIs know tons about the regs, but what else do they learn other than how to fly from the right seat?" I can tell ya, regs are probably the SMALLEST part of what I'm learning right now......

[/ QUOTE ]

It is really more about providing options rather than encouraging people not to instruct. The fact of the matter is, not everyone WANTS to be an instructor, and not everyone will make a good instructor. In the past the PA program was a "One-size-fits-all" kinda deal. Now you have the option...

I am all for the instructor track. Until you are in the position of instructing, you have NO IDEA how much you don't know about flying, no matter how "in the know" you think you are. The best instructors that I have had along the way, had a certain quality that some people just don't have. If you don't have "it" then now you have an option. The problem is going to be with the people that THINK they have "it", but really don't.

[project7]

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The fact of the matter is, not everyone WANTS to be an instructor, and not everyone will make a good instructor.

[/ QUOTE ]

As much as I dislike these 'direct-track' programs, I gotta agree with you there. A big reason why I was turned off by pan am was that they told me that very few people didn't get hired as instructors. Then I hung out there one day observing and talking to students. My general thought was "My god, I haven't met or seen a single person here that I would want to be my instructor". (Of course, I didn't meet everyone, I'm sure there are some good instructors there).

Finding a good instructor out in the world is not always easy. Whenever I meet an instructor, the first question I ask myself is 'is this person just trying to build hours, or are they genuinely focused on being a good instructor'. Being assigned an instructor at an academy would make me uneasy, especially knowing that that person most likely enrolled at that academy for the express purpose of getting to an airline. People who treat instructing as a nuisance that they must put up with before getting the job they really want have no place teaching others. Also, from what I've seen, those types of people don't seem to last long and often have trouble finding employment at a descent FBO.

The chief pilot at my school is constantly turning away applicants for this exact reason. It's actually kinda impressive, he seems to be able to analyze a person's motives and personality before they can even hand him a resume (I have a good view from the couch). He'll tell them that he already has too many instructors right now, then 5 minutes after they leave he'll start getting on my case about finishing my CFI so I can "get to work already".