New Advertiser: Pan Am International Flight Acad.

[Doug Taylor]

I'd like to welcome PAIFA to the list of sponsors that support Jetcareers.com!

The acceptance process started about 60 days ago where I reviewed training CD's, curriculum and talked personally to present and former students, one was even a gate agent in PHX (a JC 'lurker').

[jtrain609]

...you're serious?

[montanapilot]

[dakovich]

CREAM...as long as it helps pay the bills at JC, more power to um

[SmitteyB]

I guess people should stop talking sh** about them.

[jtrain609]

It's not just about money, at least not to the people that frequent this site and take it very seriously with as to where and how to conduct their flight training. The schools that Doug puts in this section has gone through a screening process, and they are not just any school that can put up the money. The schools that Doug will accepting advertising are schools that Doug believes will not screw the people here, and I for one take that very seriously. When I went looking for flight schools I've narrowed my search down to those that Doug accepts advertising from. Doug is not a guy to screw people, and I trust his judgement on this stuff a lot.

With that though, I'm not quite sure I understand this one. It was my understanding that Pan Am has been known to screw quite a few people, so I'm a little bit confused. I could be mistaken, though. Either way, I still trust Doug not to accept advertising from company's that will bend an unknowing student over and have their fun with them. So there has got to be a pretty good reason Doug has chosen to accept advertising from Pan Am.

[TheFlyingTurkey]

About time!

John Herreshoff,
What you heard about Pan Am ripping people off, was actually 1 or 2 former students who didn't like the academy style of training and decided to leave Pan Am before completing their training. That cost the students up to a $2000 penalty depending on when they left. This was in the contract, every one knew about it, and it was there to discourage people from coming and going all the time. These few students were very vocal here on JC.
I went to Pan Am from 0 time to MEI, did it under budget and in less time than advertised. I am nobody special. I just did what I had to do. Now I am a CFI at Pan Am, and I am doing very well there. It is no surprise to me that Doug T. finds the school worthy of becoming a sponsor of JC.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to welcome PAIFA to the list of sponsors that support Jetcareers.com!

The acceptance process started about 60 days ago where I reviewed training CD's, curriculum and talked personally to present and former students, one was even a gate agent in PHX (a JC 'lurker').

[/ QUOTE ]

So ummmm,ummm does this mean that there no longer the Devil incarnate???




-Matthew

[DE727UPS]

"Industry Spotlight - The Present & Future of Commercial Aviation"

http://www.panamacademy.com/career.asp?ID=350

Check out this link and tell me if you think it's accurate and responsible. From the title, I'd expect to see at least SOME news stories about pay cuts and furloughs.

Notice all the links are to positve news stories and no mention of any "bad news". Is this really the way it is in the industry today? Or is this just what PanAm wants you to know about? Those of us who have been in the career for a while know the truth but what if you knew nothing of the aviation industry and went to PanAm's website? It makes it look like you cant lose....

Just like DCA, I find PanAm's marketing to be highly misleading. You may say it doesn't matter, several DCA guys have told me the same thing, but as a professional pilot, it matters a HECK of a lot to me. As long as these big academies keep spreading this BS they call marketing, I'll be yelling and screaming and telling everyone I know to stay away, just like I do with DCA.

[Lima_Charlie]

[ QUOTE ]
"Industry Spotlight - The Present & Future of Commercial Aviation"

http://www.panamacademy.com/career.asp?ID=350

Check out this link and tell me if you think it's accurate and responsible. From the title, I'd expect to see at least SOME news stories about pay cuts and furloughs.

Notice all the links are to positve news stories and no mention of any "bad news". Is this really the way it is in the industry today? Or is this just what PanAm wants you to know about? Those of us who have been in the career for a while know the truth but what if you knew nothing of the aviation industry and went to PanAm's website? It makes it look like you cant lose....

Just like DCA, I find PanAm's marketing to be highly misleading. You may say it doesn't matter, several DCA guys have told me the same thing, but as a professional pilot, it matters a HECK of a lot to me. As long as these big academies keep spreading this BS they call marketing, I'll be yelling and screaming and telling everyone I know to stay away, just like I do with DCA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm.... Since when is it's Pan Am's responsiblity to be the "Fox News" (Fair and Balanced) of the Aviation world!!?? Pan Am is a business, just like UPS. Here is the UPS press release website. I don't know too much about the cargo hauling business, but according to the website, things must be pretty rosy around UPS. Not a single negative story to be found. Not single release on the number of late packages. Not a single release on the number of lost packages. Not a single release on the number of insurance claims from damaged packages. If I happened to be someone that had never shipped a package before, I think I could easily be led to believe that UPS is FLAWLESS. Doesn't UPS have the moral obligation to disclose EVERY detail about their business, good and bad??

Give me a break!! There is nothing "misleading" about what is on the Pam Am website. Here is the direct quote from the page...

[ QUOTE ]
While some of the major airlines are going through significant changes, carriers such as Southwest Airlines, Jet Blue, America West and others continue to thrive with conservative business strategies, appropriate for today's climate.

For an excellent discussion of the current state of the airline industry, click here for an article by noted aviation author, Mark Twombly, printed with his permission (400KB). Additionally, below is a collection of links to articles which we feel give the best picture of the "state of the industry". Additional articles will be added periodically.


[/ QUOTE ]

What is so misleading about that? It even STATES that the articles are the "best picture" of the industry!!! You make is sound like the articles were made up!!!

Look, I have tremendous respect for what you have done w/in this industry. For the most part, I respect your opinion. You paid your dues and have risen through the ranks. In the case of Pan Am, I think you are wrong. For me, and for MANY other people, Pan Am has been a great experience. I know I will be personally better off in the long run, for MY situation, by attending Pan Am. I got my training done in the shortest amount of time as I could. I am not discounting the other methods of training. It has nothing to do w/ being able to see the future. I considered my options, and Pan Am made sense.

[SteveC]

[ QUOTE ]
<snip>
Look, I have tremendous respect for what you have done w/in this industry. For the most part, I respect your opinion. You paid your dues and have risen through the ranks. In the case of Pan Am, I think you are wrong. For me, and for MANY other people, Pan Am has been a great experience. I know I will be personally better off in the long, for MY situation, by attending Pan Am..

[/ QUOTE ]

20/20 foresight must be very comforting.

[montanapilot]

I gotta pull the bullshat flag on this one. While PanAm no doubt provides great training. They still peddle the idea "Just drop 80Gs and all your problems will be solved" This type of mentality separates alot of uninformed students from their money.

Hell, if i hadn't found JC I would marched right off to an overpriced academy because according to their ads, you won't amount to shat unless you do one of these gee wizz airline transition programs.
Thankfully I learned from JC that the airlines dont give a shat if you did "airline transitions" or if you learned to fly at a FBO in Hickville, USA.

Now an endorsement from JC?

[Lima_Charlie]

[ QUOTE ]
I gotta pull the bullshat flag on this one. While PanAm no doubt provides great training. They still peddle the idea "Just drop 80Gs and all your problems will be solved" This type of mentality separates alot of uninformed students from their money.

Hell, if i hadn't found JC I would marched right off to an overpriced academy because according to their ads, you won't amount to shat unless you do one of these gee wizz airline transition programs.
Thankfully I learned from JC that the airlines dont give a shat if you did "airline transitions" or if you learned to fly at a FBO in Hickville, USA.

Now an endorsement from JC?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sorry, but where exactly does Pan Am say that?

Look, Montana... I realize that you are quite "invested" in your opinion, but consider this for a second...

When does and airline pilot expect to make the most money? In the last few years of their career, right? Those "money" years could be on the level of $180-$200K+, agree? As of today, we all know that all of us will have to retire from our cushy airline job when we turn 60 years old, right? Yes, the clock is ticking for everyone. Still with me? So, every year that someone is NOT on the seniority list, meaning they are either still training or teaching, means that are shorting themselves a pretty big chunk of change. Now, if I had taken the FBO route, and it took me 3 years to get the training and hours that I need, it would have cost me ALOT more than it did by spending my money up front.

Now this is not meant to be a "bash" on FBO's. I am sure that plenty of people have gone through an FBO just as fast as say someone, like the The FlyingTurkey, did at Pan Am. However, I doubt that it is the norm. If it was, then places like FSA, Pan Am, ATP, DCA, wouldn't have a market for their program. You are at an FBO, right? How long have you been at it?

[kellwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
So, every year that someone is NOT on the seniority list, meaning they are either still training or teaching, means that are shorting themselves a pretty big chunk of change.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. I think I read almost those EXACT words in a marketing brochure. What's the point if you die of starvation your first three years b/c you can't make the loan payments? The only problem I really have with the big academies is their slick marketing and their inflated prices.

[ QUOTE ]
You are at an FBO, right? How long have you been at it?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not the only one, either. I'm getting ready to knock out about five ratings in three months at my FBO. It's gonna cost me less than $15K to do that, too.....

[Lima_Charlie]

So you read it in a marketing brochure... Is it wrong? It seems pretty clear to me? Please set me straight if I am misinformed on how that part of the industry works.

Oh, and congrat's on knocking out those rating so quick. I think that is awesome!!!! I am glad that your plan is working out for you. Seriously...no sarcasm...

[DE727UPS]

"Give me a break!! There is nothing "misleading" about what is on the Pam Am website."

Perhaps I should have been more specific. I was refering mainly to the new links at the bottom half of the page. They only show good, positive, happy, rosey, articles. There is no mention of United pilots pay cuts, US Air bankruptcy, Independence Air furloughs, Comair management demanding cuts from the pilots, heck...I even heard Mesa furloughed 4 guys.

It's not total gloom and doom, and you could even make the argument that this is a fine time to enter the industry. But at least paint a balanced picture for those seeking guidance from the "Present and Future of Aviation" link at your site.

We are talking about people making career and life changing decisions...not whether a package got there on time.

[montanapilot]

3 years at an FBO?

you gotta compare apples with apples. If you went full time at an FBO (like your doing at Pan Am) you could bust out your ratings in the same amount of time (if not faster cause you wouldnt have to deal with all the baggage that goes along with academies). Every FBO i ve trained with, If i wanted to I could have went balls out and busted it out just as quick as ATPs.

I m sick of these passive aggressive put downs of FBOs.
Seniority lists my ass, thats weak. The regional you go to has a hell of alot more effect on your seniority than what you've done in your first 250hrs. (i.e Mesa = sh!!ty conditions, lightning fast upgrade, Horizon = fairly good place to work for, sit right seat forever)

The reason i m still at an FBO is cause i m going to school full-time and training on the side. Whats the point of this fast-track crap when i got 2 years of college left. I think it would be quite foolish of me to drop everything, sell my soul to key bank, just to chase after seniority numbers for airlines that will probably be liquidated by the time i m ready to be hired by them.

[montanapilot]

BTW, is there a dog and pony show coming to Portland anytime soon?

I'd like to attend one posing as "the uninformed newbie" to see what marketing reeeaallly says.

I better change the ol Avatar though.


(I just 'loved' the DCA one back in Seattle a couple years ago, hahaha)

[Lima_Charlie]

(if not faster cause you wouldnt have to deal with all the baggage that goes along with academies).


[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me more about the "baggage" that I now carry?

[montanapilot]

I didn't say you carry baggge around.

What i mean by baggage is = management, scheduling issues, politics (i.e lucrative foreign airlines training contracts)

Face it most academies are pretty dang top heavy with management and their fun rules and procedures.

[Lima_Charlie]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, is there a dog and pony show coming to Portland anytime soon?

I'd like to attend one posing as "the uninformed newbie" to see what marketing reeeaallly says.

I better change the ol Avatar though.


(I just 'loved' the DCA one back in Seattle a couple years ago, hahaha)

[/ QUOTE ]

More power to ya... You would have to check the website for the upcoming cities... You and DE727 could go together!!!

[Lima_Charlie]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't say you carry baggge around.

What i mean is baggage = management, scheduling issues, politics (i.e lucrative foreign airlines training contracts)

Face it most academies are pretty dang top heavy with management and their fun rules and procedures.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't had a problem w/ any of the "baggage" that you list.

I will agree, that in the past, Pan Am has been top heavy. At some point along the line, the "powers that be" lost track of who their customer is, and how valuable that customer really is. Decisions were made that put the emphasis on the $$$ rather than the people. As a result, the MavMB's of the world were born. Fortunately, with some change on the administrative level, those "powers" have seen the light. They are being proactive in fixing the "issues" that have plagued Pan Am. I, for one, am looking forward to the new, FLEXIBLE, Pan Am!!

[Laissezfaire]

Obviously Lima Charlie is satisfied with his experience at Pan Am, and that's great. He was helpful to me when I was in the process of selecting a flight school, and I feel he was very forthcoming in talking to me about the positives and negatives of his training. In fact, Pan Am does offer a very streamlined training system, and anyone interest in taking the "fast track" (if there is such a thing) should consider it.

My training at Pan Am, however, failed to live up to my expectations, and I left the school after completing only one rating. While I do not feel that Pan Am necessarily misrepresented their product, I do feel that in my case the training I received was not up to par with the very steep prices I was paying. This was due, in my perception, to the "baggage" that comes with operating a large academy.

Let's face it, operating a large school requires a lot of resources; i.e., staff, facilities, etc. It also requires standardization for efficiency--in the form of a cookie-cutter syllabus. While the school's facilities and aircraft are great for the students, the syllabus is not. No two students learn the same way, and as a result a syllabus that cannot be molded to the individual can only lead to frustration by both the instructor and the student. Lima Charlie states that "in the past, Pan Am has been top heavy." I would argue that it still is today.

The school is top heavy with significant overhead that affects the entire training process in negative ways: The outrageous prices, the syllabus, the school's scheduling practices. While the school claims that all of this is necessary to prepare its students for an airline career--the real reason for any of it that it is easier for the school than adopting the alternatives which would really put the student first.

So, are the "issues" at Pan Am really fixed? If they were, I doubt three fellow Pan Amers from my class would be joining me at my new school. And, from what I hear, the they are just a few of those that got out while they could--meaning, quite literally, while they still had some money available for training.

You may be wondering why, considering my experience I would recommend prospective aviation students consider Pan Am. The reason is simply as I previously stated: “No two students learn the same.” What Pan Am offers in abundance is structure and discipline. For a certain type of personality—one that thrives in such an environment—Pan Am is an ideal place. It is really up to the student to decide, then, if having that kind of environment is worth suffering the consequences inherent in the nature of the academy. For some, truly, I believe it is.

[Doug Taylor]

I think people forget (or probably didn't know) that I did a positive review of Pan Am back in July 2001.

In 2001, the website was a lot quieter and I had the ability to slip in as a starry-eyed potential student, ask questions and more or less ask things that I already knew the answers to and see what their approach was going to be. It was pretty fun in those days because I was just some guy in shorts, flip flops and a t-shirt asking pointed questions but I really don't have that amount of anonymity that I used to.

About a year later, the pendulum swung and some people were having issues with PAIFA where I decided to remove my endorsement in mid-2002. Remember the flight school reviews section of the website? It's still there, I can reactivate it and show you the review.

Over the past year, from current students and graduates, I got the impression that they had gotten their crap together, took notice of what was being said on the internet and made appropriate changes to the operation.

If those changes weren't made and I didn't get a 'warm fuzzy' that they made corrections, I certainly wouldn't have spent all of the time reviewing information, talking to students recently familiar with the program and accepting advertising. If you've got recent experience with the program and haven't spoken to me, I've got a very public email address, talk to me.

The second the site loses credibility, I might as well sell it to Kit Darby and retire altogether from running Jetcareers.

[Lima_Charlie]

Dan... Mucho props to you!! I appreciate you for being level headed about your experience. Since we had spoken before your enrollment, I wish we would have connected while you were here. Maybe we could have figured out how to get you the help you needed. Our loss... :-( Anyway, you are 100% right when you say that everyone learns in a different ways. And that fact alone is a HUGE challenge for a school this size. Eventhough I am glad that you found a "home" at another school, I think you would be pleasantly surprised by what changes are coming down the pipe. As I mentioned in a previous post, much more attention is being put on how the students are doing and making sure the school is delivering what they promise. Good luck, and don't be a stranger!!

LC