Q for ex-pan am students

[dakovich]

there are, for the most part, serious differences in the performance of students when it comes to those with or without a degree. no, it doesn't mean that if you don't have a degree you're going to do horribly, but for those who are not so self motivated college helps to teach them how to learn effectivly. it gives the every day person who has attained a degree a huge advantage in so many arenas.

not to mention having a higher degree of education doesn't really hurt you... at the least it gives you a better understanding of how the world works. even the personal interactions of daily college life teaches an individual so much in terms of how they'll react in future relations, and thats equally important to how much knowledge you'll have gained during school. like a good Jedi, you should understand the difference between KNOWLEDGE and INTELLIGENCE.

[Doug Taylor]

No, a degree does not guarantee that you'll do better in flight school.

[justme]

You've got to be kidding!
First, what are you basing these serious performance differences on? In my IR ground school class there were some of us that had a four year degree, a couple people had a two year degree, and some had little or no college experience. Almost all of us finished the gs with an average of over 90+ percent. I can assure you it had nothing to do with our college experience, or lack thereof. Furthermore, some of the most motivated and highly successful people I know didn't even finish high school (let alone college).
Second, if you actually think that the academic world even remotely resembles the real world, you must be living in an entirely different world then me. The academic world is a joke(however, a necessary evil).
However, this whole degree topic is kind of pointless since I think we all agree on the importance of having a college degree if you want to be an airline pilot. For those of us that already have a college degree....more power to us, right? For those that don't have one....get one. Simple as that.
Just for the record, I'm not trying to be rude or offensive, so pardon my cynicism.

[I_Money]

>>Doing well at these schools simply requires self discipline <<

But do you not think that college is one the best and quickest way to learn self dscipline? I learnt a bit in high school, however with exams like I see in college (70-100% of my grades are based on one exam paper, pretty big deal) I have really learnt to study, and work hard on my own! I think college teaches you far more then knowledge, it teaches you about life (how hard cooking really is and how much laundry sucks) and about how to study and learn, which I would think will help you at Pan Am or any other flight training facility.

[chunk75]

I have found that those who are making sacrifices to undergo the training do the best. A guy who sold his house and moved his family will almost always work harder than 21 year old son of 777 captain who's paying for everything. At least in my experience.

Chunk

PS--Not to sound self serving, but with one notable exception, I've noticed that prior military guys do well.

[dakovich]

your view is limited to what you've experienced, so try not to generalize what you consider fact. i totally agree that you don't need a degree to do well, i think thats an obvious fact. the person makes or breaks him/herself either way. my point is college is so much more than just an academic experience...and for some it never even was an academic experience. but when you try and say you don't grow as a person because of it, you've obviously missed something during your time there. damn, i mean i don't think getting the 4-year was any feat to be really proud of, but i really matured and had a better understanding of what it was i wanted to do in life. if anyone wants to advocate that just having a high school education is good enough, then i openly challenge that belief. just for the record, i've also seen many during my flight training at Panam that did outstanding work, but that doesn't necessarily make them intelligent, and you or i having a degree doesn't either. the person makes or breaks themself.

on paper everyone during my ground schools and elsewhere, for the most part were equal, but those who had a higher education (college, self educated, military, etc..) understood the material more completely. how do you truely start to understand physics of flight if you don't know what physics is. how do you begin to be able to do almost anything without having any basic math skills, let alone advanced math skills. if you want to guage everyones performance by how they did in a groundschool that only requires you to memorize answers then you're not getting the picture. students need to understand why things are the way they are, especially in a field like ours that lays the lives of countless passengers solely in the hands of all of us who really want to be up there piloting the aircraft.

ok, i'm done...blah blah blah

[justme]

Naturally, my view is limited by my experiences(as is everyone elses). I don't believe I missed out on anything with my college experience. It served its purpose...that of getting a degree so that I can get a descent job some day. Do I think I grew tremendously as a person because of college....absolutely not. As you said, getting a college degree is not a feat to be particularly proud of....its really not that difficult. It is through my other life experiences, outside the academic world, that has caused me to grow as a person. And for the record, I'm not suggesting that having only a high school education is "good enough", but I would be curious to know why you think that it isn't. I know how important it is to have a degree if you want to fly for the airlines, (not because it will make you a better pilot, but simply because thats what the ailrines want to see) but I don't believe that having a degree is required to be successful at most things.

As far as understanding the physics of flight goes....It certainly doesn't take college physics to get a grasp on that concept. The physics of flight is not that difficult of a topic and it certainly doesn't take an Einsteinian understanding of physics to fly an airplane well. I am a science major, so I've had plenty of experience with the sciences, as well as math for that matter, and there is nothing that I've had to learn in flight school that a high school physics course would not have adequately covered. As far as the math skills go, flying does not require advanced math capabilities. Again, any high schooler(or probably even a junior higher) could perform any math functions required by a pilot. However, I certainly agree that flight students need to understand the "why" behind concepts and not just the simple facts behind them, but I don't believe that college prepares you any better for that then high school does(academically or otherwise).

Anyway, on to a new topic Dakovich. As I've said before, it has only been recently that I started writing on here, and I haven't read all the posts about Pan Am, but I am curious to here your story and thoughts on the school and where you are now with your training and/or career, so feel free to let me know your thoughts about that.

[dakovich]

the thing i noticed is that even those basic high school skills people should be at least somewhat proficient in are the ones i see so many students not understanding. i went for an arts degree and i still at least know the basics, i guess i can thank the first two years of college for that. but its true that many don't comprehend the basics, i guess thats what i was saying.

i see college as like having your Commerical Pilot License, it makes the skills you learned in you Private License seem basic to you, but when you first learned them they may have been somewhat of a challenge. the Commerical license makes you perfect those skills you first learned as well as teaching you so much more in terms of aircraft control and other topics. as you progrees eduacationally you fortify that for which you have already learned.

either way i like flying airplanes

[turtle]

I started trainig at Pan Am's Ft. Pierce campus in January, 2001 and stayed there for about a year and a half. During this time I got my Instrument, Commercial, Multi, CFI, CFII, and instructed for about 11 months.

I left because they gave me an ultimatum: get your MEI or you're fired. Everyone knew they didn't need MEI's (the existing MEI's were fighting each other for students) they just wanted another $5K. I don't like to be blackmailed - so I quit. I didn't leave due to any academic difficulties. Just for the record, while I was there, the majority of the students who left did so because of the way they were treated by management - not due to academic difficulties.

Now they're doing it again with the ACE program. The word for existing instructors is: Go through CRM, Route, and ACE or you're fired. I think it's policies like this, rather than academics, that are causing people to leave.

Unfortunately, I don't know of a single flight school that treats their students with any amount of respect. It's like, "Just give us your money and if there's anything you don't like you can speak to that brick wall over there". Sad, but true. (If anyone knows of a flight school that DOES treat students well please share!!)

On a positive note Pan Am has the finest fleet of training airplanes out there!

Bottom line: I'm glad I went there, I got some first rate instruction (thank you Bob Jex!), but in the last year the whole climate of the school changed. It's not the same school as it was in early 2001. They want your money and they're not shy about letting you know it.

[Mavmb]

Turtle, those are the exact reasons I left Pan Am. So feel rest assured that you are not the only one who was robbed and thrown around like a rag doll by the Pan Am administration. Like I've said many times before, when your loan money is in their bank account, you lose any freedom you have of your dreams and your career.

[Doug Taylor]

Wooo! Dang! Now don't beat around the bush and tell us how you REALLY feel!

[turtle]

I do miss those Pan Am airplanes, though!

Somebody refresh my memory on what it's like to have two-way comms for an entire flight!

[justme]

Thats exactly the problem wit Pan AM, Turtle. It has nothing to do with acadmeics or the intensity of the program at Pan Am that causes people to leave the school. Frankly, I personally don't believe that the program is that difficult and intense at Pan Am. I am currently a student there but have recently started looking around for another school. I'm just sick of being treated like crap by the management(and others). They simply don't care about the students....its all about the money. That is painfuly obvious with requirements like the new one requiring all instructors to go through ACE. I know some pretty pissed off instructors about that one. Some have taken equivalent courses from other flight schools and they say there is no way in hell they are paying for it again. Can't say I blame them. Furthermore, does anyone know where that briefing charge comes from....where I'm from, we call that highway robbery.
I will also agree about the nice equiptment there. That is the only reason that is is hard to leave the school. You get kind of spoiled with this stuff. Oh well, the equiptment isn't worth being raped everyday, but kudos to those that can jsut bend over and take it up the pooper

[FLDiver]

Those are the main reasons I left Pan Am too. My poop chute just couldnt take the raping anymore. I am glad I am not the only one who was really questioning those brief charges. Once you really take a good close look at the entire program, it is designed to get you where you want to go but you will pay one hell of a hefty price to get there along with the red tape and disrespect that you get from the administration. I am definately NOT saying don't pay your dues, but I AM saying don't get ass raped and pay more dues than you actually have to. There are many cheaper alternatives out there that can get you to the same place, and they won't ream your toot hole like Pan Am does. If you go elsewhere, flying might become fun, cheaper, and you just might get treated like a human being instead of a number or a bank.

[turtle]

Justme,

Those briefing charges were a constant source of student complaints when I was at Pan Am. Finally, the Chief Instructor gave us a cost breakdown. He compared Pan Am's hourly instructor rate with Flight Safety and several other schools. I don't remember the exact numbers but even when you added the 20% brief charge onto the hourly rate, Pan Am was still less than Flight Safety (I haven't verified these numbers - I just figured he was telling the truth). What's Pan Am's hourly instruction rate? We should find out from other students on here how much their schools charge and do our own "bottom line" comparison. Anyone want to help out with this?

[chunk75]

Because there is NOOOOO way the Chief would bend the numbers a bit, right?

Consider the source, do your own research. I highly doubt that FSI costs more. I started with my PP-ASEL, and I will finish my CIME at around 40K (I'll let you guys know when I add it up at the end). I'll have 55-60 multi.

Chunk

[turtle]

Chunk,

We can figure that out ourselves. What does Flight Safety charge for instruction? If we can get Pan Am's rate from justme we can work it out.

The reason I tend to believe the Chief's numbers was that he said that at one of our instructor meetings. There were lots of ex-Flight Safety instructors there. I would imagine if he was being untruthful one of them would have blown the whistle on him.

You're right though, best to check it ourselves.

[JoeBlow]

"turtle…I don't remember the exact numbers but even when you added the 20% brief charge onto the hourly rate, Pan Am was still less than Flight Safety (I haven't verified these numbers - I just figured he was telling the truth)."

Wow! He must be telling the truth if it is cheaper than Flight Safety. Pun intended. Who cares about how much cheaper it is than Flight Safety or any other high priced school. All the numbers they feed everyone are just the minimums. The fact of the matter is that the students are being charged for a brief that they never get. What is the just in that? Oh, lets try to sugar coat it so it doesn’t sound like we are getting ripped off that bad. If they want more money they should increase prices where it would look legit rather than gouge the student where it is so obvious that they are being ripped off. If you buy something at the store and the cashier gives you your money back minus one doller, you would want that doller back. Now say the cash register over charged you by $20 bucks, you would probable be a little upset especial if every time you went shopping you were overcharged $20. Pan Am does this everyday, but students brush it off. You would think if management were reading these threads, they would try to improve their game. They must be making so much money that they don’t care how many people leave Pan Am, because the attitude “if you don’t like then leave” bit says exactly that. These people are crooks!

[turtle]

Joe,

I agree with you about their billing policy and I even suggested to Pan Am that if they're going to charge 20% extra they should just increase their instructor rates and eliminate the brief charge. As you pointed out, it would eliminate a lot of student animosity. Why they refuse to do this is anybody's guess.

Three points, though:


1. I instructed at Pan Am for 11 months and I absolutely guarantee you that my students got their brief time. If the schedule allowed we would do a pre-flight brief for 30 or 45 minutes. In addition to this, before checkrides and stage checks we briefed for hours at no charge. On my days off they came to my apartment and we briefed for hours at no charge. Bottom line is that, depending on the instructor, some students actually do get their brief time (I personally know several instructors at Pan Am's Ft. Pierce campus who are very generous with their time - can't speak for Deer Valley, though).

2. I agree with you that the numbers quoted by flight schools to complete their various programs are based on FAA minimums and are, therefore, pretty much worthless. It's going to take you roughly the same amount of flight time to get your ratings no matter which school you go to so what does matter is the hourly cost for aircraft and instructors. (Of course you have to also factor in the quality of the aircraft. If you can't fly because the planes are broke it's not such a great deal).

3. What you call "sugar coating" I just call practicality. I care about the bottom line - how many dollars are leaving my account for each hour of instruction received. If Pan Am's hourly rate for instruction is less EVEN after they add the 20% brief charge (and that's a big IF - I'm still in the process of doing an actual comparison) than, like it or not, you're getting the best deal by staying at Pan Am. I understand your frustration because you feel like you're getting ripped off, but if you go to another flight school that has a higher hourly rate than Pan Am the bottom line is that you're going to be spending more money for your training. The choice is yours but I'd stay at the place with the lowest comparable rates - regardless of how the bill is calculated.

By the time I left Pan Am I had pretty much had it with the whole organization. I was tired of being ripped off, treated like dirt and having their, "if you don't like it you can leave" philosophy crammed down my throat (sound familiar? ). Now that I'm at another flight school, believe it or not, Pan Am doesn't look so bad. Before you leave Pan Am do some serious checking to make sure that you're going to like your new school (i.e. ignore their marketing people - talk to the students).

[dakovich]

"If they want more money they should increase prices where it would look legit rather than gouge the student where it is so obvious that they are being ripped off"

i've said the exact same thing before. its not so much getting ripped off as it is a feeling of getting ripped off. when you list a seperate brief cost and then you get no brief you feel a little shafted. however, this problem in my experience rarely, if ever, happened when i had an instructor that was fully trained at Panam from PPL to MEI. having gone through it all they respected that breif time just as much as the students did.

[dakovich]

i asked the same questions in regards to FSA instruction cost vs. Panam but i couldn't locate the old posting. from what i remember the two did come out to be somewhat equal even with the brief cost thing tied on. either way, what is the cost for instruction at FSA?

from a flight on 6/2/02 i calculated the instruction cost at Panam to be somewhere near $44 at Panam

[turtle]

Hey dakovich,

Does that $44/hour include the extra 20% for brief time?

[dakovich]

on the print out it says "flight" and "brief" and they have associated charges. the brief was $80.00 and the flight was $160.20...all for a 1.8 hour flight.

it breaks down the hours and says i was charged for 2.5 hours of brief time on a 1.8 hour flight. so it basically says i had a 1.8 hour flightcharge , got charged for 1.8 hours of instruction in the plane, and another charge for 0.7 hours of brief time.

oh, and right above it i was charged $98.00 for a frasca flight and $64.00 for brief because i was out sick for three days. didn't notice that until recently. my instructor had come in sick for like 3 days in a row and gotten all her students sick including me. i was out for 3 days and came in sick after the third just to avoid getting cancelation charges but turns out you get charged the third day if you have no doctors note. no work = no medical insurance = no doctors note. i'm a little bitter on that one still

[aviator]

FSI charges $55 per hour for instructor time.
A normal lesson has 1 hour of brief time built into it. This is usually the max amount of time an instructor would bill. We bill each lessons brief time on an individual basis. If a student shows up prepared and knowing the material, I usually end up with mabye .4 or .5 brief time charged for a lesson. If a long review is required then possibly 1 hour will be charged.
The standard is- brief time is charged when the instructor and student are together and teaching/learning is occuring. (ie no brief time for small talk, walking out to the airplane, normal preflight, turning in airplane, ect. We try to use basic common sense)

[dakovich]

so thats $55.00 flat per hour, and then extra for brief time? or was it extra for briefs beyond an hour? sorry, i'm a little confused, its late