Is there a light at the end of the tunnel?

[Grumpy01]

Throughout this thread, I have noticed that no one has mentioned the lack of a four year degree.

I have been under the impression that the degree was one of the "toss it or read the rest of it" decision makers for resume readers.

Am I mistaken in that thought ?

If I am correct, I think Airdale should worry more about that than the RJ freebie from the parents. Use that money to pay down some debt and get into school.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by Grumpy01

Throughout this thread, I have noticed that no one has mentioned the lack of a four year degree.

It's not really the point of the thread.

When I started flying, I hadn't even stepped foot in a college classroom.

[Airdale]

Thanks for the advice. I'm already heading the Rj course, so , its not a big deal. Its one week of learning some FMS stuff, plus as instructor I paid not even half of what they offer the course to everyone else. Believe me, I wouldn't pay $6k for it and wouldn't have my parents pay it either. Instructors get it for less then half of that.

As far as college goes, well I went the military path instead of college. I met a great mentor through the Coast Guard, a guy that flies for Continental Airlines. He gives me straight up advice and he's really someone I look up to. We developed a good friendship when I was active duty, he was an auxilarist and stood some communications watches for us during some pretty awesome SAR cases. He's the one that told me worry about college later on. He said that having 4 years of practical military experience, in which my military record is pretty awesome, that I wouldn't have a problem.

Of course its crossed my mind alot whether or not I can compete with no degree, but he constantly assures me its a non issue with my service record. Lets hope. I have $50k for college from the Coast Guard, so I intend on using it when I have time to attend courses. Nobody has really told me that its impossible without a degree, I hope I wasn't being lied to. That would not be cool to go through this hard work and not get it because I didn't go to college. Not that I didn't want to, I decided to serve my country instead and while I was going to work on college during my tour, September 11 put an end to that and kept me busy doing law enforcement inspections.

I'm not a quiter thats for sure. Its not in me, not after my 4 years in the military. Maybe thats why its pretty hard right now, because I know I'm not a quiter and would probably leave her for this career. I don't want too though. Hope she doesn't read this.

[MQAAord]

Originally Posted by Airdale

That would not be cool to go through this hard work and not get it because I didn't go to college.

It depends. Many regionals do not require a college degree, but most majors do. If you can't check the 'yes' box next to 'do you have a college degree' your application may hit the circular file. Or at, worst, you may be underqualified compared to other applicants.

Miltary experience is a great asset, but it's not everything!

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by Airdale

He's the one that told me worry about college later on. He said that having 4 years of practical military experience, in which my military record is pretty awesome, that I wouldn't have a problem.

I agree . . . having the degree is awesome, bu I respect a hacker a hell of alot more.

Mark my word, non-hackers won't agree.

And I went to college. Learned a helluva lot more pounding sand.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

I agree . . . having the degree is awesome, bu I respect a hacker a hell of alot more.

Mark my word, non-hackers won't agree.

And I went to college. Learned a helluva lot more pounding sand.

Thanks. I went to the military and a few of my friends went to college, what they learned in college wasn't as practical as my experience. Hell when I made E4, I was teaching new crew members CRM. I intend on getting a degree before applying to any majors, but for now I need to get a decent flying gig so I can do some internet college courses or something. Won't cost me anything with the GI bill.

[naunga]

Just wanted to chime in with a slightly different perspective.

I'm a career changer, currently moving from IT to professional cooking.

There are a lot of parallels between cooking and flying: low pay, long, long hours, lack of a life, etc.

Just like pilots cooks are working when everyone else is having fun.

One quote of your's got me thinking:

I went from enjoying life with my girl, spending time on the water fishing and taking day trips, driving a nice truck and having a good time - to - miserably broke, home sick for the love of my life and scrapping pennies off the floor to maybe get to eat three meals a day. My only joy is when we're off the ground flying.

Re-read this comment. It kind of contradicts itself.

Is your ONLY joy flying? Or do you get joy out of fishing, taking day trips, and being around home?

No one here is going to lie to you: flying for a living, especially for an airline, keeps you away from home, and cuts into your free time, and it will do that for a long, long time.

For me, I found cooking, but I hate cooking at home. What I love about restaurant cooking is the chaos and the lack of downtime. My current job...I sit for 8 f'ing hours a day. It kills me.

Anyhow, passion is a great thing. Passion can carry your through a lot of tough times. Passion, however, will not make something that you are just not suited for work out for you. I have a passion for IT. I love technology. I, however, just cannot do math. I can't sit for 8 hours a day typing on a keyboard. I don't deal well with meetings, etc. So while I may have passion for IT...I just cannot be happy doing it....weird? Yeah, but it's the truth. Computers and technology are my hobbies, but cannot be my job.

You may be happy taking flight training, but then again you may not be happy in the actual job.

You have to decide that for yourself.

In the end, all situations get better. You either find your joy or you decide that it just isn't worth sacrificing good things in your life for a job.

That's not quitting. That's being realistic. That's realizing that life is too short to be spent unhappy in a job.

I always use this equation:

1 day = 24 hours = 8 hours of sleep + 8 hours of work + 8 hours of freetime.

Being unhappy at work can make you unhappy during your freetime or require you to spend part of your freetime recharging emotionally, which means you might be unhappy for the 8 hours at work, and then 4 hours of your freetime, which means you're spending 12 hours or half your life unhappy, or at least not doing what you want to be doing.

Life is just too short for that, and any misery in our lives can make us miserable people. People that our loved ones might not want to be around. You can only spend so much time around someone who is a downer, before you become down yourself.

The point I'm trying to make is consider not just your job, but your lifestyle. How do you want to live your life? What kind of person do you want to be?

Sometimes, the things we do that we believe are noble really aren't. There is a fine line between doing something hard, and just torturing yourself.

Hope things get better for you. I wish you luck and happiness, in whatever you do.

Oh one more thing...

Worth more then my fiance?

Never. No job, no amount of money, is ever worth a person. We were not put on this Earth to be airline pilots, cooks, bus drivers, or plumbers. If we were we'd see cave paintings of 747's and Greyhounds. We were put on this Earth to be with other people. Friends, lovers, husbands, wives, just people. We learn so much for other people, and gain so much more from them than any job.

It always gets me how people treat other people like they are disposable, and to get on a soapbox for a second: a person who has been divorced multiple times, cheated on his wives, neglects his partner, or even abuses them has no RIGHT to tell anyone about the sanctity of marriage.

Also flying is the only profession I've come across that actually labels pilots who get divorced as having A.I.D.S or Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome.

I do wish you happiness and luck, and as I said, ever dark period is balanced out by a light one. It's just the way of the world. Even manic depressives get happy at some point...even if it is just for a short time.

Naunga

[Airdale]

I think flying for a living is something I was born to do. I can't think of anything else I'd rather do. If I didn't fly, I don't know what job I would have. Probably take over a family business, but I can tell you that job is even worse. Sure I'd be home a lot more, but its a miserable job on your knees all day installing/refinishing wood floors. After a few weeks of that, you just get sick of it. Get sick of being sore all the time, sweating like there's no tomorrow. Believe me, there are plenty of jobs out there that are far worse then flying for a living. Flying is something that has come natural to me, and thats what I expected. As a little kid its all I've ever wanted to be and I spent more time reading aviation books then doing my homework in school. For me flying isn't just a joy, its a passion. Its a life long dream I've had since I can remember. I breezed through my flight training and just developed a great natural ability to be a good pilot. Not that I was gifted, but because I believe its just something that been in my blood forever.

I enjoy fishing and doing those things as well, hopefully I will be able to find a good balance between them all. I just got back from flying 6hrs today with my student, sure beats working for a living.

I just got a little down in the dumps there for a bit because I've been waiting to move back home to instruct there, I'm just waiting for a position to open.

[blee256]

Airdale,

I love my job, but i hate the pay. it honestly pisses me off, that airlines can get away with paying so little for such a skilled position. but what can I do? As far as this being a career, pick an airline that has a domicile where you live. And it looks like thats what you are planning on doing with AWAC or XJT.

As far as instructing, my suggestion is leave to go back to instruct closer to home. If you have 300 tt. and you went to ATP that means you have about 200+ multi. I dont know of any regional that requires more than 200 hours of multi. just go build total time now, even if its in a single. Sure pay maybe the same, but the schedule wont be. At ATP it isnt the pay that kills you financially, its the schedule. You can work a second job to supplement your income like a lot of CFIs do at other FBOs.

There are plenty of aviation jobs(corp/frac/cargo/airline), plenty of FBO's to instruct at, you have your pick of about 5-10 regional arilines that are hiring right now and will be for a while, but you only have your 1 fiance. Do you really want to lose her because you would rather instruct in Piper Seminoles with Garmin 430s instead of single engine Cessnas with multi-colored doors?? i think its a simple choice.

I wanted to quit when i was instructing too. Though I didnt have as much commitment as you do. I cant imagine how much harder it has to be on you, but for me I didnt want to think I invested 50K and so much studying/time/effort to become "just" a CFI.

Originally Posted by Airdale

Plus my instructor through the program despised the RJ course. He didn't like it all and refused to do it. Well he got hired at Express around 800TT and he the first thing he told me after new hire class was do the RJ course. He said three other guys had done it and they were way ahead of everyone else in the class. He told me that he didn't see a value to the RJ course until he went to new hire class. It's one thing to get an interview and get hired, its another to make it through new hire training. Doing the RJ course doesn't give you a type rating, but it familiarizes you with RJ systems, FMS and crew procedures. Something that definitely can't hurt to have under your belt prior to new hire class.

As far as the CRJ transition course, the only thing its good for is the interview with reduced mins. Because if it didnt offer that, no one would be signing up for it. If you are just using it to prep you for ground school, you're wasting your money. And the CRJ course is obviously, based on the Canadian variety. XJT flies the ERJ, and from what I understand the planes arent too similar. For instance the CRJ is an AC plane, and Ihave heard taht the ERJ is a DC plane. The XC phase alone in ATPs ACP program is good enough of an intro for a crew cockpit concept. Working ther Garmin 430 is good enough to make you the class genius when it comes to learning how to work the FMS. Plenty of people make it through airline groundschools w/o the help of a transition program. And those that do fail out, i have a feeling wouldnt have done any better even if they did the transition program.

[BobDDuck]

I just read through this whole thread and planned out a response. And then I get to the last post and Brian says pretty much word for word what I was going to say. So I'll just hit the highlights...

200 Multi is more then enough to get you in at almost any regional. Just get the total time up. Go home to your local FBO. Who cares what the planes are like (as long as they are safe) and build up the total time. Find some side flying stuff as your time progresses and start getting the resumes out to the regionals. If you are looking only in the PHL/NYC/DC area you are going to be limited to XJet, AWAC, Colgan and maybe PDT. Not a whole lot of options really. However, if you are living at home and makeing a survivable living (which it sounds like you could be) then who cares? Stick it out until you get on with a company that will let you maintain a good QOL outside of the bad pay. And while yes, the pay is bad, it is managable. Not fun. But possible.

The RJ program? Eh. Plenty of people have managed to get hired on with out doing it. Does it help in ground school? Maybe if you are learning CRJ systems, but if you study while in ground school it isn't too bad. If somebody is getting it for you, fair enough. If you are going out of your way to do it, forget about it.

[blee256]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

I just read through this whole thread and planned out a response. And then I get to the last post and Brian says pretty much word for word what I was going to say. So I'll just hit the highlights...

Great minds think alike. haha

HIJACK...

and Thanks to your airline for not lowering the bar. Very respectful. Hopefully no other airline comes to pick up for the same low rates or your work was all for not.