ERAU flight program is going down the tubes

wheelsup · April 14th, 2004, 21:52

Ugh. To start it off I graduated from the DAB campus in june '03.

So I'm not just bashing here...but I've recently learned (from a current instructor) that ERAU is switching around their flight program considerably for incoming freashman and there on - here's a brief overview:

Students will solo in a C-172. From there on out they will fly the multi...but with a twist. Students will log approximately 100 hours of flight time in the Commercial - Inst - MEL courses. No SEL licenses will be handed out. They will do approximately 200-300 hours simulator time (level 6 FTD).

Jesus. Who came up with this nonsense. If students want SEL ratings they must come up with them as an extra expense...at $120/hr for a/c and something like $50/hr for instructor!!!

When I first came to riddle in 2000 their 172 r's and sp's were at $65/hr and instruction was $40/hr. It went up to reach about $80/hr and $45/hr while I was still in the singles. By the time I graduated prices were $105/$45.

How does Riddle market pilots with 100 hours of logged time?!?!? I just don't see the reasoning. It seems like either A) students will be instructing (if there is slots open) or B) students will be time building in 152's throughout the DAB area (good for nearby flight schools!).

Craziness I tell you. Craziness.

~wheelsup

highspeed · April 15th, 2004, 10:22

Well that bothers me less then the lower cost. I've heard a new freshman will pay 33% less then i did (grad DAB Dec. 02) because of the use of the sims. I say, to hell with them, give them a 15% cost savings and mail me the other 18%!!!

Doug Taylor · April 15th, 2004, 11:40

100 hours? You need at least 190 for a part-141 commercial. Is there any data about this that I can read about online or at least a source so I can check into it?

(A concerned alumni)

RiddlePilot · April 15th, 2004, 16:01

The whole Part 142 transition is the reason I'm looking forward to being completely done with the flight program within the next week. I did 3 real flights and 4 FTD "flights" prior to my commercial multi ride. It cost much less, but I did not feel comfortable with that checkride at all. For commercial single-engine, I was fed so much Riddle propaganda that I barely want to set foot in flight dispatch again. (It's not dangerous to fly in the yellow arc on a smooth day, folks! Quit freakin' out!)

I feel sorry for the poor folks starting FA304 (multi instrument at PRC) in the near future. They've moved to a program that has activities in this order (repeating of course): oral, PCATD, FTD, flight. Costs less, but a better experience? Nah. What's more, they're moving all courses to Part 142 in the near future.

I'm taking an optional flight course in Fall '04 that was originally taught in a Cessna 340A. You'd get your high altitude signoff at FL250+, which I'm sure was an excellent experience. Now I get to look forward to sitting in a PA44 FTD doing a two-pilot crew deal while "simulating" flying for a cargo operator. Yay.

ERAU takes flak from quite a few people on their flight program, and I definitely think they're moving in the wrong direction here.

wheelsup · April 15th, 2004, 22:05

Riddle has no limit on hours for the commercial - a friend had his at 160.

I'm not sure where they get this but the 190 comes from schools like your over the counter FBO making 141 standards. Riddle's 141 certification allows them to issue it without limit.

~wheelsup

Edit: just ask some instructors - get in contact with them and they'll give you a heads up.

wheelsup · April 15th, 2004, 22:14

They'll be paying less cause they do less. With 100 hours in the plane you couldn't help but pay less...I'd hope atleast.

Let's not forget about the $22,000 cost per year of tution alone, not including flight. Back when I went (less than one year ago) I was paying $16,000/year in tuition. A couple years before that, people were paying $6,000 (or so I hear).

It seems riddle is pricing itself out of its league (which is quite hard). No wonder they needed sims to reduce the cost of the flight program - no one could afford to go there if they didn't.

Another friend who did his commercial MEL add-on, CFI, and CFI/I at Comair paid $38,000 for those ratings. It seems its an industry trend to really twist the knife once you sign the dotted line, eh?

~wheelsup

Doug Taylor · April 15th, 2004, 22:52

Gah!!! I paid $1800/trimester w/out flight.

FalconCapt · April 16th, 2004, 08:49

[ QUOTE ]
Gah!!! I paid $1800/trimester w/out flight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh I think it was more than that... When I left a few years before you did I think it was up to something like $2,700 per Trimester... When I started there it was $135 per credit hour...

Doug Taylor · April 16th, 2004, 11:04

That was 1988, but I could be wrong. Man, 15 years is a long time!

EatSleepFly · April 16th, 2004, 12:32

[ QUOTE ]
Riddle has no limit on hours for the commercial - a friend had his at 160.

I'm not sure where they get this but the 190 comes from schools like your over the counter FBO making 141 standards. Riddle's 141 certification allows them to issue it without limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, I don't think so. 190 is the FAA 141 minimum. I find it hard to believe that Riddle has authorization do it in 160.

Stone Cold · April 16th, 2004, 18:42

Just to let you know I left Riddle with everything except for my flight instructor ratings back in 1994...Comm, ASMEL-I and had 188 hours logged. I am still paying for that trying to get hours. That was when Riddle had the King Air. I received my mulit in 5.2 hours with no PIC, even for the checkride. There are better ways to do it, that's for sure.

RiddlePilot · April 16th, 2004, 18:56

Weird. They made sure I had 190 before I got my commercial. Dunno how they'd get around that.

Tazman282 · April 18th, 2004, 01:15

Well let me fill all you boys in on my understanding of the whole transition to 142. I am currently a Graduating Senior as off a week other than finishing up the CRJ sim.

With the 142 certification there will be less time in the plane but there will be more FTD time and better airplanes to fly. They are currently looking into getting the new Cessna Mustang and using that in correlation with the 142 cert. So yes you might only have 190 hrs or so and a lot of FTD time but you will have a lot of Multi Turbine time which will make up the difference so that when you do finally get out you will be more marketable to part 135/121 operations.

This is all in the works as of now. I think they want to have the ball rolling by Fall of 04. I know the FTD time kinda sucks but I will have to say those new 172 FTD are pretty awsome. Granted you may not have the single engine actual experince but it will all be proportional to the type of flying you plan to encounter once you graduate. I personally don't plan on doing to much VFR flying anyway and that is part of the reason they are leading to the all Multi flight training. When you attend Embry Riddle they are making you marketable to the aviation industry more than to allow you to be able to go down to the local FBO and rent a 172.

I honestly don't know if this idea will work or not but for ERAU's sake I hope it does because it needs something to stay competitive with the ever growing flight school competition.

Please don't take this as Fact but this is what I have been told by a few individuals that are affiliated with the 142 certification process. I hope this atleast gives you a new perspective to look at.

kellwolf · April 18th, 2004, 01:22

Great. Lots of Multi/Turbine time (IF that goes through. I don't WANT to know how much they're gonna want per hour for a Citation Mustang), but with less than 200 TT in actual aircraft, I don't see that as "marketable." It set's you up REAL nice for the CAPT program, though.

Jonnyb1225 · April 18th, 2004, 10:23

What does FTD stand for?

kellwolf · April 18th, 2004, 10:38

Flight Training Device. It's like an Elite sim or something similar. ERAU has some pretty nice ones with full cockpit mock-ups (including seat belts) and wrap around projection screens. You can log dual recieved and simulated instrument time, but that's about it. Not sure if you can even log the approaches, but I don't see why not. Just can't log the landings.

RiddlePilot · April 18th, 2004, 12:43

Yeah, you can log approaches with an instructor present. Hell, I'm instrument current only because of that thing.

crashmbern · April 21st, 2004, 22:30

well i can testify against that 190 hour rule for part 141. I had a couple of friends that went to Dowling College and they needed 190 hours for their commercial.

But each part 141 certificate is tailored to the flight school. This includes riddle. After my Commercial DE i had 149 hours. Right now i am almost done with my CFI and i have a little bit over 190 hours. I just remember learing that each 141 certificate is individual to each school it is issued too.

April 14th, 2004, 21:52	#1
wheelsup Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: _ Posts: 5,615	ERAU flight program is going down the tubes Ugh. To start it off I graduated from the DAB campus in june '03. So I'm not just bashing here...but I've recently learned (from a current instructor) that ERAU is switching around their flight program considerably for incoming freashman and there on - here's a brief overview: Students will solo in a C-172. From there on out they will fly the multi...but with a twist. Students will log approximately 100 hours of flight time in the Commercial - Inst - MEL courses. No SEL licenses will be handed out. They will do approximately 200-300 hours simulator time (level 6 FTD). Jesus. Who came up with this nonsense. If students want SEL ratings they must come up with them as an extra expense...at $120/hr for a/c and something like $50/hr for instructor!!! When I first came to riddle in 2000 their 172 r's and sp's were at $65/hr and instruction was $40/hr. It went up to reach about $80/hr and $45/hr while I was still in the singles. By the time I graduated prices were $105/$45. How does Riddle market pilots with 100 hours of logged time?!?!? I just don't see the reasoning. It seems like either A) students will be instructing (if there is slots open) or B) students will be time building in 152's throughout the DAB area (good for nearby flight schools!). Craziness I tell you. Craziness. ~wheelsup

April 15th, 2004, 10:22	#2
highspeed Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 119	Re: ERAU flight program is going down the tubes Well that bothers me less then the lower cost. I've heard a new freshman will pay 33% less then i did (grad DAB Dec. 02) because of the use of the sims. I say, to hell with them, give them a 15% cost savings and mail me the other 18%!!!

April 15th, 2004, 11:40	#3
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,927 Blog Entries: 1	Re: ERAU flight program is going down the tubes 100 hours? You need at least 190 for a part-141 commercial. Is there any data about this that I can read about online or at least a source so I can check into it? (A concerned alumni)

April 15th, 2004, 16:01	#4
RiddlePilot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 928	Re: ERAU flight program is going down the tubes The whole Part 142 transition is the reason I'm looking forward to being completely done with the flight program within the next week. I did 3 real flights and 4 FTD "flights" prior to my commercial multi ride. It cost much less, but I did not feel comfortable with that checkride at all. For commercial single-engine, I was fed so much Riddle propaganda that I barely want to set foot in flight dispatch again. (It's not dangerous to fly in the yellow arc on a smooth day, folks! Quit freakin' out!) I feel sorry for the poor folks starting FA304 (multi instrument at PRC) in the near future. They've moved to a program that has activities in this order (repeating of course): oral, PCATD, FTD, flight. Costs less, but a better experience? Nah. What's more, they're moving all courses to Part 142 in the near future. I'm taking an optional flight course in Fall '04 that was originally taught in a Cessna 340A. You'd get your high altitude signoff at FL250+, which I'm sure was an excellent experience. Now I get to look forward to sitting in a PA44 FTD doing a two-pilot crew deal while "simulating" flying for a cargo operator. Yay. ERAU takes flak from quite a few people on their flight program, and I definitely think they're moving in the wrong direction here.

April 15th, 2004, 22:05	#5
wheelsup Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: _ Posts: 5,615	Re: ERAU flight program is going down the tubes Riddle has no limit on hours for the commercial - a friend had his at 160. I'm not sure where they get this but the 190 comes from schools like your over the counter FBO making 141 standards. Riddle's 141 certification allows them to issue it without limit. ~wheelsup Edit: just ask some instructors - get in contact with them and they'll give you a heads up.

April 15th, 2004, 22:14	#6
wheelsup Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: _ Posts: 5,615	Re: ERAU flight program is going down the tubes They'll be paying less cause they do less. With 100 hours in the plane you couldn't help but pay less...I'd hope atleast. Let's not forget about the $22,000 cost per year of tution alone, not including flight. Back when I went (less than one year ago) I was paying $16,000/year in tuition. A couple years before that, people were paying $6,000 (or so I hear). It seems riddle is pricing itself out of its league (which is quite hard). No wonder they needed sims to reduce the cost of the flight program - no one could afford to go there if they didn't. Another friend who did his commercial MEL add-on, CFI, and CFI/I at Comair paid $38,000 for those ratings. It seems its an industry trend to really twist the knife once you sign the dotted line, eh? ~wheelsup

April 15th, 2004, 22:52	#7
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,927 Blog Entries: 1	Re: ERAU flight program is going down the tubes Gah!!! I paid $1800/trimester w/out flight.

April 16th, 2004, 08:49	#8
FalconCapt Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 489	Re: ERAU flight program is going down the tubes [ QUOTE ] Gah!!! I paid $1800/trimester w/out flight. [/ QUOTE ] Oh I think it was more than that... When I left a few years before you did I think it was up to something like $2,700 per Trimester... When I started there it was $135 per credit hour...

April 16th, 2004, 11:04	#9
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,927 Blog Entries: 1	Re: ERAU flight program is going down the tubes That was 1988, but I could be wrong. Man, 15 years is a long time!

April 16th, 2004, 12:32	#10
EatSleepFly Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ?? Posts: 4,600	Re: ERAU flight program is going down the tubes [ QUOTE ] Riddle has no limit on hours for the commercial - a friend had his at 160. I'm not sure where they get this but the 190 comes from schools like your over the counter FBO making 141 standards. Riddle's 141 certification allows them to issue it without limit. [/ QUOTE ] Umm, I don't think so. 190 is the FAA 141 minimum. I find it hard to believe that Riddle has authorization do it in 160.

April 16th, 2004, 18:42	#11
Stone Cold Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: SE US & Kiev Posts: 3,084	Re: ERAU flight program is going down the tubes Just to let you know I left Riddle with everything except for my flight instructor ratings back in 1994...Comm, ASMEL-I and had 188 hours logged. I am still paying for that trying to get hours. That was when Riddle had the King Air. I received my mulit in 5.2 hours with no PIC, even for the checkride. There are better ways to do it, that's for sure.

April 16th, 2004, 18:56	#12
RiddlePilot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 928	Re: ERAU flight program is going down the tubes Weird. They made sure I had 190 before I got my commercial. Dunno how they'd get around that.

April 18th, 2004, 01:15	#13
Tazman282 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 101	Re: ERAU flight program is going down the tubes Well let me fill all you boys in on my understanding of the whole transition to 142. I am currently a Graduating Senior as off a week other than finishing up the CRJ sim. With the 142 certification there will be less time in the plane but there will be more FTD time and better airplanes to fly. They are currently looking into getting the new Cessna Mustang and using that in correlation with the 142 cert. So yes you might only have 190 hrs or so and a lot of FTD time but you will have a lot of Multi Turbine time which will make up the difference so that when you do finally get out you will be more marketable to part 135/121 operations. This is all in the works as of now. I think they want to have the ball rolling by Fall of 04. I know the FTD time kinda sucks but I will have to say those new 172 FTD are pretty awsome. Granted you may not have the single engine actual experince but it will all be proportional to the type of flying you plan to encounter once you graduate. I personally don't plan on doing to much VFR flying anyway and that is part of the reason they are leading to the all Multi flight training. When you attend Embry Riddle they are making you marketable to the aviation industry more than to allow you to be able to go down to the local FBO and rent a 172. I honestly don't know if this idea will work or not but for ERAU's sake I hope it does because it needs something to stay competitive with the ever growing flight school competition. Please don't take this as Fact but this is what I have been told by a few individuals that are affiliated with the 142 certification process. I hope this atleast gives you a new perspective to look at.

April 18th, 2004, 01:22	#14
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,230	Re: ERAU flight program is going down the tubes Great. Lots of Multi/Turbine time (IF that goes through. I don't WANT to know how much they're gonna want per hour for a Citation Mustang), but with less than 200 TT in actual aircraft, I don't see that as "marketable." It set's you up REAL nice for the CAPT program, though.

April 18th, 2004, 10:23	#15
Jonnyb1225 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 45	Re: ERAU flight program is going down the tubes What does FTD stand for?

April 18th, 2004, 10:38	#16
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,230	Re: ERAU flight program is going down the tubes Flight Training Device. It's like an Elite sim or something similar. ERAU has some pretty nice ones with full cockpit mock-ups (including seat belts) and wrap around projection screens. You can log dual recieved and simulated instrument time, but that's about it. Not sure if you can even log the approaches, but I don't see why not. Just can't log the landings.

April 18th, 2004, 12:43	#17
RiddlePilot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 928	Re: ERAU flight program is going down the tubes Yeah, you can log approaches with an instructor present. Hell, I'm instrument current only because of that thing.

April 21st, 2004, 22:30	#18
crashmbern Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 510	Re: ERAU flight program is going down the tubes well i can testify against that 190 hour rule for part 141. I had a couple of friends that went to Dowling College and they needed 190 hours for their commercial. But each part 141 certificate is tailored to the flight school. This includes riddle. After my Commercial DE i had 149 hours. Right now i am almost done with my CFI and i have a little bit over 190 hours. I just remember learing that each 141 certificate is individual to each school it is issued too.

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