Run like he** away from aviation!

[expilot]

I am Air Science Class of 1978. While there, I was on the Dean's List every semester of my Junior and Senior Year. I lived in the dorm for four years so I could take advantage of every opportunity on campus. There were no distractions. I guess this puts me in the 'not a slacker' category. When I graduated I went on to obtain ATP and CFI-everything but helicopter. I flew professionally for 15 years after graduation and continuously applied to the majors for employment. I never got there (a blessing in disguise!). The sad fact is that fifteen of my friends never made it that far either - they were involved in fatal accidents during that time period. One per year in charter, instruction, night freight or just screwing around and WHAM.

I eventually became disgusted enough to give up flying, went back to school and got a degree in Aerospace Engineering. Like they say in kid-dom, I got to take a 'do-over'. It was the best financial decision I have ever made. Trust me on this-- engineering pays a HE** of a lot more than flying planes ever did and the employment is stable and there is a retirement account waiting for you at the end. I did pay off the $32,000 in 1978 tuition that I had to borrow. I have no idea how a 2007 grad could ever pay off $180K. That is the most insane thing I have heard in a long time. He**- a law degree won't cost you that much.

I know that there are a lot of actively flying Riddle grads out there who will say "Hey, there are no guarantees and a Riddle education is what you make of it." Truth be told, I gave the aviation gods 100% of everything I had and only got back 20% in return. One of these days these fellow graduates will realize that their fly-boy party is over. They will look around and see all the comfortable lifestyles that could have been theirs in other career paths and they will want that too. Unfortunately, there is no way they will attain that.

If you intend to go to Riddle, you need to be asking them this question: "How many graduates of the Aeronautical Science program from the last twenty years are still in the aviation business?"

The dropout rate is extremely high due to the huge loan burden combined with the low salaries you can expect for the first 10 years of your career. When you graduate from Riddle, you can expect to be thrown to the wolves, literally. You will have nowhere near the experience needed for airline employment and you will have to accept any crappy job that will get you the flight time. General Aviation is the only option (unless your dad has connections) and trust me- general aviation is full of con artists, horrible managers, stale coffee, shi**y hours and deadly equipment. Very few of my fellow graduates from 1978 (approx 25%) can be found in the FAA Airman Database still holding active pilots licenses and an even smaller percentage (5%) can be found with heavy type ratings that would indicate airline employment. Most are flying for Delta, United, USAir. After a heck of a lot of hard work, they did make to the majors BUT their retirement account contributions from each company have been suspended under Chapter 11. They basically have zero retirement to look forwards to. When they leave aviation at age 65, you will see their pictures in the real-estate section of the local paper. Selling homes is about the only job they will qualify for and the real-estate business is full of ex-airline pilots.

If you want to have a comfortable life, wife, kids, two cars, house in the suburbs, gifts under the Christmas tree, all the trimmings, etc. all I can say is get into a real profession as soon as you can. For anyone wanting to fly for a living, my advice is to run as fast as you can away from any office that has wings attached to it.

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by expilot

I am Air Science Class of 1978. While there, I was on the Dean's List every semester of my Junior and Senior Year. I lived in the dorm for four years so I could take advantage of every opportunity on campus. There were no distractions. I guess this puts me in the 'not a slacker' category. When I graduated I went on to obtain ATP and CFI-everything but helicopter. I flew professionally for 15 years after graduation and continuously applied to the majors for employment. I never got there (a blessing in disguise!). The sad fact is that fifteen of my friends never made it that far either - they were involved in fatal accidents during that time period. One per year in charter, instruction, night freight or just screwing around and WHAM.

I eventually became disgusted enough to give up flying, went back to school and got a degree in Aerospace Engineering. Like they say in kid-dom, I got to take a 'do-over'. It was the best financial decision I have ever made. Trust me on this-- engineering pays a HE** of a lot more than flying planes ever did and the employment is stable and there is a retirement account waiting for you at the end. I did pay off the $32,000 in 1978 tuition that I had to borrow. I have no idea how a 2007 grad could ever pay off $180K. That is the most insane thing I have heard in a long time. He**- a law degree won't cost you that much.

I know that there are a lot of actively flying Riddle grads out there who will say "Hey, there are no guarantees and a Riddle education is what you make of it." Truth be told, I gave the aviation gods 100% of everything I had and only got back 20% in return. One of these days these fellow graduates will realize that their fly-boy party is over. They will look around and see all the comfortable lifestyles that could have been theirs in other career paths and they will want that too. Unfortunately, there is no way they will attain that.

If you intend to go to Riddle, you need to be asking them this question: "How many graduates of the Aeronautical Science program from the last twenty years are still in the aviation business?"

The dropout rate is extremely high due to the huge loan burden combined with the low salaries you can expect for the first 10 years of your career. When you graduate from Riddle, you can expect to be thrown to the wolves, literally. You will have nowhere near the experience needed for airline employment and you will have to accept any crappy job that will get you the flight time. General Aviation is the only option (unless your dad has connections) and trust me- general aviation is full of con artists, horrible managers, stale coffee, shi**y hours and deadly equipment. Very few of my fellow graduates from 1978 (approx 25%) can be found in the FAA Airman Database still holding active pilots licenses and an even smaller percentage (5%) can be found with heavy type ratings that would indicate airline employment. Most are flying for Delta, United, USAir. After a heck of a lot of hard work, they did make to the majors BUT their retirement account contributions from each company have been suspended under Chapter 11. They basically have zero retirement to look forwards to. When they leave aviation at age 65, you will see their pictures in the real-estate section of the local paper. Selling homes is about the only job they will qualify for and the real-estate business is full of ex-airline pilots.

If you want to have a comfortable life, wife, kids, two cars, house in the suburbs, gifts under the Christmas tree, all the trimmings, etc. all I can say is get into a real profession as soon as you can. For anyone wanting to fly for a living, my advice is to run as fast as you can away from any office that has wings attached to it.

Thanks for that extra-special glimpse into aviation. You poor baby.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by expilot

If you intend to go to Riddle, you need to be asking them this question: "How many graduates of the Aeronautical Science program from the last twenty years are still in the aviation business?"

Me, DE727UPS and MikeD? Trick question?

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Me, DE727UPS and MikeD? Trick question?

and about a half dozen others just on this board.

[Spbeyond]

Who in the flip has 180k in loans?? If so YA that is way to much. They will be paying that off for the rest of their life. But how I have it now I will have more like 15k in loans. I am spoiled my family and I have been saving my freaking lunch money and paper route money ect. since I was 11, so that actually added up to be alot. But I hope that no one gets into it like 180k. That is financial suicide for the rest of your life!

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by expilot

I flew professionally for 15 years after graduation and continuously applied to the majors for employment. I never got there (a blessing in disguise!).

can you expand on that? what did you do? who did yo fly for? how many hours/type of time did you have when you decided to 'retire'? did you pursue anything outside of the 'majors' at the time? SWA? UPS? etc. (not sure if they were around then...)

if aviation is so bad why did you decide to get an aerospace degree?

[killbilly]

You wouldn't happen to be the guy running the Eclipse VLJ blog, would you?

[MFT1Air]

I suppose, to summarize, spending a lot of money for an ERAU education isn't financially practical when a less expensive path to a degree can be achieved. Believing ERAU also has aerospace engineering in their curriculum, options for finding a good job is as competitive for ERAU grads as anyone else.

. . .in a national newspaper within the past month, I read an article of east coast colleges graduating students with debts over $100K. I can't see my going to a school and having to pay so much even with the significant name recognition as a Yale, Harvard, Purdue, Stanford, or an ERAU. I've had many conversations with others about name recognition and the quality of the education received as in someone with 4.0 GPA from say Texas A&M competing with a 2.0 and "go" GPA from say. . .Harvard. Are they any smarter? I don't think so, for afterwards, both have to find a job. Secondly, one enters the workforce more significantly in debt than the other. Makes no sense.

[expilot]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

Thanks for that extra-special glimpse into aviation. You poor baby.

From your blog:
I started flying the Twin Comanche on Wednesday. So far I have logged 1.8 hours ME.
Some Background:
I have about 150 hours total time a PPL with IR, all my time was in a C172, fixed gear, fixed pitch, high wing aircraft. I have never flown a low wing or complex.


Ya gotta be <edit> me. Poor baby back to you. Have fun eating tuna out of a can for the rest of your life.

[expilot]

Originally Posted by killbilly

You wouldn't happen to be the guy running the Eclipse VLJ blog, would you?

Nope. Why would I want to run ANY aviation blog? I've had enough of this profession.

[expilot]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

can you expand on that? what did you do? who did yo fly for? how many hours/type of time did you have when you decided to 'retire'? did you pursue anything outside of the 'majors' at the time? SWA? UPS? etc. (not sure if they were around then...)

if aviation is so bad why did you decide to get an aerospace degree?

1,500 hours as CFI/Chief Flight Instructor
1,000 hours flying night freight
1,000 hours turbine corporate/charter with ATP turbine type.
s/e and m/e seaplane time, glider time,

At the time (1982-1989), the majors were furloughing. I have friends who held recall slots with USAir for 10 years before they decided to bail and fly corporate. Flying night freight for a living only puts you in an early grave. Ever seen an overweight vampire? I wouldn't do that for the starting salary they were offering. Yeah, I know you're gonna say "You only get out of it what you are gonna put into it." Well, quality of life is something that aviation does not give you and I found that out at about year 3 into the career. I was already giving 100% didn't want to give 120% to the aviation gods and still get back only 20%. Some young kids out there have a hard-on for big cockpits. They will do anything to get into that right seat so they can get those cool right-seat photos to email to their high-school friends. Trust me, after the friends see the photos and go Oooh and Ahh for a few minutes, you then have to remember that you are stuck in that cockpit for the next 40 years and nobody is going to say Oooh and Ahhh then becausd your friends will have the house in the suburbs witha wife and kids and you will still be in an apartment. Recently at ai high school reunion I overheard: "You say Jim became an ailine pilot? Damn, that's too bad. Gotta be tough." Everyone with a real life knows the truth.

I went Aerospace Engineering because my flight time would help employment prospects. If I had gone accounting, I might as well have thrown those 15 flying years in the sh**can. In ended up working at NASA/Houston training shuttle pilots on the simulators, then I switched over to space station design. It is a 9:00 to 5:00 job. My paycheck is placed on my desk every week and always has the same numbers. I get a cost of living increase, regular retirement fund contributions, dental, medical. You will not find that in general aviation working for a flight school, but engineers right out of college get those benefits no questions asked. You might see that about year 10 in aviation if you end up flying jets for a large corporation. Why AE??? Aerospace Engineering is the sister branch to Mechanical. I can get an ME job anywhere.

So, now that the majors are hiring again, why don't I put the application back in? Because I now have a life. House in the suburbs, wife, kids. All is good. The grasson this side of the fence really IS greener.

I have heard a few Riddle grads say: "The courses I took at Riddle were really engineering courses. All I have to do it take a few more courses at an engineering school and I will get an AE degree." BULL***T. Only two courses from Riddle transfer to any engineering curriculum - English and Writing. You need 6 semesters of calculus, physics, chemistry. Aeronautical Science doesn't even touch on that stuff. Basically, an Aeronautical Science degree costs a heck of a lot but it only qualifies you for one very specific job. The degree is not transferrable to 'real life' jobs. When you graduate and see this, you will realize how screwed you are.

[nwa_contrails]

Why didn't you post this in the general topic forum, instead of burying it in Collegiate Avaition? Surely you want everyone in aviation to run for the hills, no?

[launchpad]

Different Strokes for different folks mang......Just cuz you couldn't make it work doesn't mean other people can't. In fact, some people actually enjoy this profession despite all the bullcheet...

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by expilot

Ya gotta be <edit> me. Poor baby back to you. Have fun eating tuna out of a can for the rest of your life.

I am not the genius that borrowed $180,000. Seems to me that with all your so called education you would be smart enough to figure that one out. Even borrowing $32,000 in 1978 is just ridiculous.

All your post proves is that its stupid to borrow money that you can't pay back. WOW what a concept.

Sorry your life sucks so bad.

[DE727UPS]

I see a lot more right about what he's saying than what's wrong.

Desertdawg, you're way outta your league, dude. You gotta lot to learn about this biz.

Just today I was walking by one of those big trucks and I was thinking how cool it was that you drove those things. Yet, you come here and flame some guy who was at Riddle before me. I say we should at least welcome this guy to JC rather than flame him. What has this site become, anyway? This is embarrassing....

[Swen]

I read the first sentence, then stopped. Should I keep reading? Is this dude living under the bridge?

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I see a lot more right about what he's saying than what's wrong.

Desertdawg, you're way outta your league, dude. You gotta lot to learn about this biz.

Just today I was walking by one of those big trucks and I was thinking how cool it was that you drove those things. Yet, you come here and flame some guy who was at Riddle before me. I say we should at least welcome this guy to JC rather than flame him. What has this site become, anyway? This is embarrassing....

You know what Don, it probably is true. I just have a problem with this being his first post. No hello, no nice to be here, just a quick Aviation sucks you should do something else.

I don't post on trucker forums about how much I hated it. Everybody is different.

[Fly777bigBIRD]

lol lets start bashing on riddle!

[DE727UPS]

First post or not, he's seen some pretty profound things since before many of you were born and it sounds like he was in the biz before me.

You might not like his message but, trust me, he's saying some things everyone should hear. Like how many of his buds from the late 70's are still into flying. Know what, I lost track of my dormates from Riddle, unlike Doug, but I'd guess it's 50/50, at best, of who's still in the biz.

All I'm saying is don't flame the guy, ask him some questions....

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

All I'm saying is don't flame the guy, ask him some questions....

OK, I have a question. If aviation is in your past, what prompted you to get on this particular website and start in with the negativity on your first post?

[Kristie]

Originally Posted by expilot

I all I can say is get into a real profession as soon as you can. For anyone wanting to fly for a living, my advice is to run as fast as you can away from any office that has wings attached to it.

yea sure...tell them to run from having an office at 30,000 feet to an office with a cubicle next door where you can hear your neighbor talking to a client in full loudmouth voice?...gee, that's even more fun. Engineering is not all it's cracked up to be..sitting in an office for 10 hrs a day doing the same thing day in day out isn't always the happiest place on earth. maybe you found your place there and are happy with it but those who have worked hard to get into aviation and work thru from the bottom up have that same like and passion for their job as you do yours...why is that wrong?

hell knows, an office job is not as fun as flying and it's not as stable as flying either. all jobs are precarious now a days....

Well, quality of life is something that aviation does not give you and I found that out at about year 3 into the career....

...Trust me, after the friends see the photos and go Oooh and Ahh for a few minutes, you then have to remember that you are stuck in that cockpit for the next 40 years and nobody is going to say Oooh and Ahhh then becausd your friends will have the house in the suburbs witha wife and kids and you will still be in an apartment.

how do you figure? if you play your cards right, you can have quality of life AND a house in the suburbs....

everyone has to start at the bottom in any type of job you get...once you work your way up, life can be pretty darn good!!

[Kristie]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

OK, I have a question. If aviation is in your past, what prompted you to get on this particular website and start in with the negativity on your first post?

good question, i'd like to know that myself actually!

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

OK, I have a question. If aviation is in your past, what prompted you to get on this particular website and start in with the negativity on your first post?

Prior to my entering the site, many had told me the site provides excellent well rounded perspectives from many posters about the aviation industry in general.

As I look at many of the posts related to one aspect of the aviation industry, Gulfstream and PFT/PFJ, I now know all comments posted need not necessarily advocate favorably about certain aspects of the industry. For one or two "yes" posters advocating Gulfstream, there must have been 20 that severely chastised their program. I'm now more aware.

This aspect of the forum I appreciate. Don't try to "blow smoke" trying to say the industry is the greatest avocation any and every person can pursue with everyone involved being successful pilots. Allow the reader to understand pros and cons of the industry and allow them to decide for themselves.

The site, for me, is not a "rah rah" forum for aviation but a source for pertinent valuable information for any and all interested in the industry.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by expilot

1,500 hours as CFI/Chief Flight Instructor
1,000 hours flying night freight
1,000 hours turbine corporate/charter with ATP turbine type.
s/e and m/e seaplane time, glider time,

...

I was already giving 100% didn't want to give 120% to the aviation gods and still get back only 20%.

I think this illustrates an important point. No matter who you are, how good of a pilot you are, etc, it always comes down to lady luck sometimes if you get that golden job or not.

It also illustrates the fact that no matter who you work for and how good a job it is, you could lose it all one day.

The landscape in the aviation industry is quite different then what it was back then IMO. It sounds like the years 2001-20?? were like the years you were in this industry. I think we can all learn a lot here.

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

if aviation is so bad why did you decide to get an aerospace degree?

I know you're not asking me, but since I also got a degree in Aerospace engineering, I'd like to provide input.

An Aerospace engineering degree does NOT limit you to the aviation industry only! Yes, there is Boeing and NASA and the likes. But MANY aero grads went into non-airplane related job with a degree in Aersopace.

Aerospace, at most places, is just like Mechanical engineering, except for about the last three semesters (out of eight).

So, the opportunities are limitless! Myself? I'm working as a structural engineer on ships. I know people who graduated with me (Aero eng grads) who are working in the automotive field as well.

Make no mistake, an Aerospace engineering degree is excellent! Even if aviation corporations like Boeing or Cessna aren't hiring, there are MANY companies who hire them all the time!

Don't include that in the, "dont get this degree, get a non-aviation degree" list.


You really can't go wrong with an Aerospace engineering degree. I'd highly recommend it, if you are good at math and physics.