Multi-Engine

[B767]

How does anyone get their ME rating from the Prescott campus? The reason I'm asking is because DB requirements are that there is at least 2000 ft safe altitude for ME take-offs incase of engine failure and no runway remaining. Example is that DB dens alt is usually between 1200 and 2000 and the single engine service ceiling is about 4000 ft. The dens alt in PR is usually between 7000-8000. If the single engine service ceiling is 4000 and dens alt is 7000 there is no safe alt incase of an engine failure. With that said, the field elev is also 5000 ft, which still does not leave any room for a failure. Unless I'm not thinking straight (probably) how are they even allowed to t/o unless the requirements are different?

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by B767

How does anyone get their ME rating from the Prescott campus? The reason I'm asking is because DB requirements are that there is at least 2000 ft safe altitude for ME take-offs incase of engine failure and no runway remaining. Example is that DB dens alt is usually between 1200 and 2000 and the single engine service ceiling is about 4000 ft. The dens alt in PR is usually between 7000-8000. If the single engine service ceiling is 4000 and dens alt is 7000 there is no safe alt incase of an engine failure. With that said, the field elev is also 5000 ft, which still does not leave any room for a failure. Unless I'm not thinking straight (probably) how are they even allowed to t/o unless the requirements are different?

I am not sure what "DB" stands for. I did my all my multi training in PHX in the summer when the DA is pretty high. Anyways, remember that just b/c the absolute or service ceiling DA exceeds your actual altitude, a light twin does not need to demonstrate a positive climb rate under part 23. Keep in mind that Vyse and Vxse are drift down altitudes regardless of terrain or location.

Proper planning is always the key.

[B767]

DB is Daytona Beach. As in the campus down there

[UAL747400]

Well I actually had this issue when I did my multi-engine check ride up here at UND. The temp was 102.(yes it actually gets damn hot in ND in the summer ) Our service ceiling was something like 4000 and we had to be above 4000 agl to practice actual engine shut downs. So all I did was go up to 7000 and drift down while we did manuvers and whatever. Restarting the engine to climb back up because you didn't give yourself enough time sucks.

I'm guessing this is how you would do it anywhere else

[B767]

I understand the actual shutting one engine down during flight. However, I'm asking about take off. Apparently you can't take-off in the seminole if the density alt i too high because if there is an engine failure on departure there would not be enough power from the single engine to be able to continue safely...basically you'd hit the ground. I guess UND does not/did not have this requirement when you took off in 102 degrees? But the main question, if anyone knows or can guess, is how does anyone ever take off if the density alt is always above the service ceiling when they're not allowed to do that? I understand the requirement but think it's a little outta wack for a place like Prescott.

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by B767

I understand the actual shutting one engine down during flight. However, I'm asking about take off. Apparently you can't take-off in the seminole if the density alt i too high because if there is an engine failure on departure there would not be enough power from the single engine to be able to continue safely...basically you'd hit the ground. I guess UND does not/did not have this requirement when you took off in 102 degrees? But the main question, if anyone knows or can guess, is how does anyone ever take off if the density alt is always above the service ceiling when they're not allowed to do that? I understand the requirement but think it's a little outta wack for a place like Prescott.

Single Engine Service ceiling in a Seminole is only 4000?? That seems a bit low to me.
That is assuming that you are at max weight. Also doesn't the Seminole have a 400 ft AGL restriction in the POH for single engine after takeoff?

[Doug Taylor]

I got my ME out in PRC.

It wasn't really a problem at all and the DB requirements are DB requirements.

We'd usually climb then take care of all of the single-engine work -- start high in the pattern, put one into zero thrust and practice landings.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by B767

However, I'm asking about take off. Apparently you can't take-off in the seminole if the density alt i too high because if there is an engine failure on departure there would not be enough power from the single engine to be able to continue safely...basically you'd hit the ground.

Might be interesting if they applied those same rules to single engine aircraft operations. Wouldn't be too much flying going on even at any density altitude.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by B767

I understand the actual shutting one engine down during flight. However, I'm asking about take off. Apparently you can't take-off in the seminole if the density alt i too high because if there is an engine failure on departure there would not be enough power from the single engine to be able to continue safely...basically you'd hit the ground. I guess UND does not/did not have this requirement when you took off in 102 degrees? But the main question, if anyone knows or can guess, is how does anyone ever take off if the density alt is always above the service ceiling when they're not allowed to do that? I understand the requirement but think it's a little outta wack for a place like Prescott.

In my 300 hours of Seminole time, I've never seen it really demonstrate a useful positive rate of climb when the engine is failed after lift off. If you do everything correctly (everything!!) then you may get 50 FPM climb. I've maybe seen 100 FPM when the conditions are just perfect. So with that being said - you do not count on the single engine in a light twin such as the Seminole to carry you to TPA or a safe altitude, fly the pattern, and shoot a single engine landing. The aircraft just doesnt carry the performance or power. In my takeoff briefings with students, we always select a suitable landing site off-field in the event of an engine failure after lift off. The Seminole POH says something to the extent of - if after rotation an engine fails and the landing gear is extended, bring the throttles back and select a suitable site for landing (straight ahead). So, whether the DA is higher than the absolute or service ceilings understand that the aircraft is minimumlly capable of all low altitude single engine operations.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

Single Engine Service ceiling in a Seminole is only 4000?? That seems a bit low to me.
That is assuming that you are at max weight. Also doesn't the Seminole have a 400 ft AGL restriction in the POH for single engine after takeoff?

The absolute can be around 6000' and the service is usually around 5000'. The commercial PTS says 400' but in the Seminole POH it says "The demonstration of one engine operations should not be performed at an altitude of less than 4000' AGL"

With that being said, I usually teach engine failures on climb out around 400-500 AGL.

[kellwolf]

Got plenty of student's their ME during Aug in TX. SE service ceiling was pattern altitude if you were lucky some days. That's what Texas heat will do to 'em.

[UAL747400]

Originally Posted by B767

I understand the actual shutting one engine down during flight. However, I'm asking about take off. Apparently you can't take-off in the seminole if the density alt i too high because if there is an engine failure on departure there would not be enough power from the single engine to be able to continue safely...basically you'd hit the ground. I guess UND does not/did not have this requirement when you took off in 102 degrees? But the main question, if anyone knows or can guess, is how does anyone ever take off if the density alt is always above the service ceiling when they're not allowed to do that? I understand the requirement but think it's a little outta wack for a place like Prescott.

I guess didn't read your post correctly. We still had a service ceiling of like 3500 that day, so I could still climb up to pattern altitude during a simulated engine failure on climb out. Honestly I've never heard of the rule you speak of. It must be a ERAU thing there since you experiance these conditions. I know as far as the regs go, the seminole is not required to continue climb out if an engine fails, hence why there's no accelerate-go chart in the POH. I could see that being a school policy however since, if you cant even climb up to pattern altitude single engine, there's really no point to doing any simulated engine failures in the pattern is there.

But yeah, like said above, the climb rate single engine is nothing spectacular. I never saw anything above 200 fpm. I bet the guys that fly in the winter up here can get warrior performance single engine. All that second engine in the seminole does is give you the ability to slow down the inevitable.

[B767]

Yea I was also told today, too, that Seminole performance is horrible. It's 180 HP is only enough to help keep you up long enough to find a suitable landing spot. And apparently, once an engine fails on a Seminole, "the only thing the good engine is for is to carry you to the crash site," or however that quote goes.