CAPT Program: Questions and Answers

[Phil_Eagle]

I dont understand why everyone is bitching about the program.

If you don't like it, don't do it.
About being a well rounded pilot:
Lufthansa gets almost all their pilots through their own programm, meaning that a 300 hour or so pilot gets to fly either the B737 or A320. Havn't heard of any crashes in a long time. These people get out of flightschool and learn on the job, i don't see whats wrong with that.

So a program like CAPT might be expensive and not necessary , but it gives people who have spent their college years or even first couple of years in their career field the chance to switch over to flying as fast as possible.

[project7]

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Lufthansa gets almost all their pilots through their own programm

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And who pays for the program? Luftansa or the student?

The true threatening quality of the idea behind programs like CAPT is that the student is paying for something that should be payed for by an employer. If ERAU had their way, we would all have to pay them to be trained to be 'airline-ready' (whatever that means) as a prerequisite for employment at an air carrier.

Now, one could argue that we all pay for our certificates and ratings to be able to work as a professional pilot, and that CAPT is not all that different. The difference I see between the two is that a flight instructor with XXXX hours has the ability to work (as a professional pilot) and build hours and experience at his or her own independent will, whereas a CAPT graduate will be dependent upon the program to find employment for them. In the case of CAPT, the pilot's ability to operate outside of the CAPT bubble is essentially waived, or at least carries some strong repercussions with it.

I realize that air carriers in other countries do things differently than we do here. Personally, I think the unspoken system of student-to-instructor-to-maybe cargo-to-airline(or corporate/charter/fractional) is the best system out there. More importantly, it works. Although these 'ab-initio' programs exists elsewhere, I can't help but notice on a daily basis how many non-U.S. citizens would step on each other's faces to get a flying job with a carrier here in the good ol' USA.

Programs like CAPT have a habit of fizzling and dissappearing in a big poof of smoke. When this happens, there always seems to be a group of students standing around saying "So what now?......Hello?!". At least when it happens to an FBO (or an academy with more realistic goals), the students can simply take their business elsewhere and continue where they left off. Imagine being dropped into the market with 300 hours, a type-rating, no CFI, and a big loan payment at the end of the month.

[project7]

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If you don't like it, don't do it.

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Even if you don't do it, these programs still affect you. Gulfstream affects you. TAB would have affected you. Anytime a wannabe tosses down a wad of cash in exchange for an interview or a job, it affects all of us. There is a reason that regional airline pay is so low, and it's because the air carriers know that they can get away with it. Programs like CAPT, Gulfstream, TAB, etc. are effectively demonstrating to those same air carriers that QOL and pay are not at rock bottom, and that they can continue to cut pay and treat pilot groups even worse without seeing a decrease in the height of the stack of resumes on the HR desk.

I'm not saying that CAPT was specifically created to damage the aviation industry (from the pilot's perspective). Unfortunately, even with the best intentions, there will be a negative result.

[Phil_Eagle]

I agree that you're dependant on the programm , but ab initio is an alternative thats starting to come out in the states too. Maybe an altered version of the european one.

The lufthansa flight student has to pay for 50% of the costs. The other 50% costs is provided by Lufthansa.

The part the student has to pay will be given to you by Lufthansa aswell but will be deducted from your salary over the first couple of years so it's possible for anyone to become a pilot with them, not just people that have the money so thats a huge difference.

All i was saying is just that it's not fair to jump on the CAPT programm. As seth said, it works, so from an economical point of view, why not offer it. If we want to prevent PFJ / PFT from happening, then everyone would have to work on it, and as long as people go for programms like that, the programms will stay. No use arguing about it, it's not CAPT's or TAB's or whoever's fault, its just the way it is.

[project7]

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but ab initio is an alternative thats starting to come out in the states too.

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People have been saying this for much longer than I've been around. It really isn't "starting to come out". People have been trying to use the concept of ab initio to make money for a long time. As much as people want to believe in these programs, they simply do not function properly in the U.S. aviation industry. I think that it's for a variety of reasons, including deregulation and capitalism, but that's another thread.

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As seth said, it works, so from an economical point of view, why not offer it.

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I know it's a little unfair to bring this up since Seth can't talk about it, but CAPT didn't work for a whole lot of people. There was a big lawsuit settlement that we don't know the details of, but since both sides (particularly the students) can't talk about the settlement, it's a good guess that the settlement was in the students' favor. I hope ERAU did the right thing with that.

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it's not CAPT's or TAB's or whoever's fault, its just the way it is.

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You're right. It's not CAPT's or TAB's or Gulfstream's fault. They see a chance to make money and they're taking it. Can't blame them for that. Welcome to America.

Who's fault is it? Unfortunately it's our own. By not researching the cause and effect of the choices we make now, we only hurt ourselves in future. People justify programs like CAPT because they say it will increase your total career earnings by getting you there faster. People also say that they don't mind making next to nothing at a regional airline because they will make a lot of money later in life at a major airline. The problem is that those big money flying jobs won't exist by the time they get there since they did everything in their power to show the airline management that they'd be willing to work for much, much less.

We all need to start showing people the big picture. The CAPT management will not be working with you at an airline when your salary and benefits gets cut again. Having an extra year of seniority won't matter when you get furloughed or the airline goes bankrupt. The aviation industry is smaller than many people realize. The actions you take, from day 1, absolutely matter to everyone else. Strive to do things that strengthen the profession, not tear it down.

[DE727UPS]

"All i was saying is just that it's not fair to jump on the CAPT programm."

This is an internet message board. You are free to express your opinion, as I am mine. That's what's fair...

You're getting ready to start at ERAU with zero time. I'm a UPS 757/767 pilot who graduated from Riddle in 83. I have my opinion about ERAU and the CAPT program, which is based on my experience with the career, so far. I think what would be UNfair would be for me to sit quietly and not tell you what I think. After all, didn't you come to jetcareers to hear what successful airlines pilots have to say?

That said, it's just my opinion, and I'm sure you'll find some 300 hour 747 F/E's at Focus Air that think CAPT's a great way to go.

Unlike Europe, becoming a pilot in the USA is more of a free market kinda thing and genereal aviation is a viable alternative to ab inito. CAPT, and programs like it, are one alternative. We are lucky, though, in that in the USA we have other choices. If the European model is so great, by the way, why are you headed for Florida?

[Phil_Eagle]

I never said the european model is so great. I was just referring to the ab initio program of Lufthansa.

I'm headed to florida because I myself like the aviation industry in the US alot more. It's more flying orientated than the EU version.
A friend of mine spend over 60K Euros (about 72.000 dollars) on his pilot training and isn't even multi rated.
In Europe you either fly for an airline or you have no chance. In the states it's either to find a job flying as a CFI or Charter or whatever.
You can't really compare the two systems, but flight training is alot funner in the US I suppose, since so many people from europe come to the states to learn to fly, never heard of a case the other way around.

[MDPilot]

Fun has nothing to do with it. AbInito programs for European airlines work because they are 1)the only game in town and 2)they are extremely competitive. Very few people who apply for those training slots are successful in getting one. The EU airlines controls the supply of pilots, in a way like the AMA does medical school numbers in the US. If some entity in the US controlled the number of Airline Transport Pilot slots here, you would have the same high end competition to recieve one of those "slots". Many would apply, few would be chosen. The rest would go to some other country where flight training was only regulated by how much money you could come up with (sound familiar?)

Instead, in the US we have a free-for-all where anybody with money/credit can achieve the quals, then it's up to competitive forces in the marketplace to see who is successful. Companies like DCA, PanAm, are feeding on a "ponzi"-like scheme where you need students for the new instructors to teach, so you get them by promising the new studs that they can become instructors to build time, which leads to the need for ever more students yada yada..

CAPT at least breaks that mold, but it is a one shot deal, either get hired by whoever is interviewing (Few) at whatever pay they are paying (LOW), or you're done. Let's see you pay back that loan now.

All in all, it seems to be a pretty messed up system.

If I was starting over now, I'd try and get my quals in the least expensive way possible, and then try to succeed on my own efforts and merits, instead of paying outrageous amounts of money for so called "shortcuts."

[DE727UPS]

"All in all, it seems to be a pretty messed up system."

I didn't think it was messed up until I started seeing ads about these academies and their high placement rates with x, y, and z airlines as part their marketing. Back in the day, you built up your qualifications and experience, then went out looking for a job. You didn't need your academy to "place" you.

[MDPilot]

I agree, that's the part that's messed up!!

[kellwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
Very few people who apply for those training slots are successful in getting one. The EU airlines controls the supply of pilots, in a way like the AMA does medical school numbers in the US. If some entity in the US controlled the number of Airline Transport Pilot slots here, you would have the same high end competition to recieve one of those "slots". Many would apply, few would be chosen.

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Basically, the ab initio programs in the EU are akin to the pilot selection here in the states for the armed forces. It's results driven, not money driven.

[MCP]

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You know : "being a better pilot". That's exactly what I'm scared of.
When i came across Jetcareers my eyes were opened (as i said in another post).

I'm going to Embry Riddle not because of it's name but because I hope to become a well trained pilot. And I just can't imagine how getting 120 credit hours about flying airplanes and aerodynamics and whatever will not make me a better pilot (knowing my stuff- not reputation) than if i get 120 credit hours in business. I just dont understand that.

I want to work for airlines period. Reading here at jet careers has got me pulled towards actualy majoring in airline management instead of aeronautical science, but what i'm scared of is having a harder time at an airline interview or being uncertain in some situations while flying the airplane, and just not having the confidence, and knowledge I'd have if i had persued an AS degree, do you know what I'm saying?

I'm not talking about ERAU in specific but just any AS degree- won't that make you a better pilot in the end? I mean common, why would they have the degree at all if it was [censored]? Too expencive, useless, no back up?

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I know an F-16 pilot who graduated from Fresno State with a degree in Spanish. His degree didn't seem to put a hamper on his training or abilities.

[Guidetothesky]

Man what a long one to read. Just thought I would put my two cents in.

2 cents

[Doug Taylor]

My friend who flew F/A-18's in the Navy was a "Forestry" major. Last week, my captain was a "Wildlife Management" major at BYU.

[DE727UPS]

http://www.erau.edu/capt/phaseout.html

Sorry to dig up the old thread but thought it would be good for people to note the CAPT program is being phased out. We talked about it a while back on the general boards but the news didn't make it here.

What ever happened to Seth?

[Flying Ninja]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

What ever happened to Seth?

He's still at CAPT. And I'm one of those folks that didn't make it with the program with a huge debt. So some of you were right on your speculation. Now my question is, WHERE were you guys BEFORE I made the decision to do CAPT? (just kidding...sorta)

[DE727UPS]

We were here. We've always been here...

Where were you?

I'd stop bashing the marketing practices of these schools (except for gulfstream) if they would put a link to jetcareers at their website. I think we all know that's not gonna happen. So how do we make sure young wannabe's entering aviation are properly educated on what the career is about? If we can't trust the harvard of the skies to do it right, who can we trust? I wish there was an effective way to get newbies to come here so they can see both sides of the story before making the big decision.

[Flying Ninja]

Isn't there an organization called NAFI out there for CFIs? I think perhaps NAFI should add that as part of their service or whatever they do and educate CFIs with the available resources to people. Just a thought.

[Kristie]

Originally Posted by Flying Ninja

He's still at CAPT. And I'm one of those folks that didn't make it with the program with a huge debt. So some of you were right on your speculation. Now my question is, WHERE were you guys BEFORE I made the decision to do CAPT? (just kidding...sorta)

we were here....been here 8-10 years now!

Where were you when you were doing your *research*? hehe

[Flying Ninja]

A little fuel for the fire...

I requested CAPT to send my resume to Air Wisconsin on 2/10/2006 and I just got an e-mail this morning saying that my resume was going out to them TODAY. Talk about a kick in the ass. I'm done. Carry on...

[subpilot]

Back in the day before I was educated I thought CAPT was the answer to success in this business. I sent them the $180 deposit and had a date set to go interview. I had a family crisis that made me miss the interview, thank goodness. I eventually got wise to the industry and never did make it down to Florida. Since they closed down I emailed them for my $180 deposit to be refunded since they could no longer honor my enrollement request. They told me via email that the deposit in non-refundable and that it has also since expired. They also ranted about how they tried numerous times to contact me by both phone and email. I have had the same phone number, with voicemail, and they never called. I asked them to fwd me the emails they sent me since they had a record of them and after three weeks...no reponse back. Good riddens they are gone.

[kaoyu]

i did kept my option open but as an international student i have no choice but to go to university. instead of major in aviation i choice political sci and minor in flight tech and used most my elective hrs taking aviation classes i am interested in. i think this would benefit me in the long round (HOPE SO~~)
but thank you DE727UPS and your advise