CAPT AND ASA!!! EVERYONE DOUBTING TAKE A LOOK!!!

[tyrael]

This is quite an accomplishment for CAPT! I'm very happy for them. Here is a cut from their website: http://www.erau.edu/capt/home/milestones.html

Three ASA First Officers Are a First for Embry-Riddle’s CAPT Program

Daytona Beach, Fla., January 24, 2005 – Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University has successfully placed three graduates of its Commercial Airline Pilot Training (CAPT) program as first officers at Atlanta-based Atlantic Southeast Airlines – another milestone for the program, which was started by the university a little more than a year ago.

Charles Allen, Andrew Coleman, and Patrick Lo were signed on as first officers by ASA shortly after they graduated from the full-immersion program, which trains individuals with no flight experience to the highest standards of the commercial airline industry. Atlantic Southeast Airlines is a Delta Connection carrier and operates more than 800 daily flights to 116 airports across North America and the Caribbean.

“The CAPT program trains pilots that can command today’s and tomorrow’s modern aircraft with mature, sound judgment,” said Gary Morrison, CAPT’s MD-90 program manager. “These gentlemen have proven and will continue to prove that the heart, the mind and the right attitude, coupled with superior training, is the correct combination. Their hiring as flight deck officers by ASA continues to add merit to the concept.”

“ASA has been pleased with the talent generated through Embry-Riddle’s new CAPT program thus far,” said Julie Skoglund, pilot recruiter for ASA. “We are excited to continue our partnership with Embry-Riddle as they grow and enhance the CAPT program to provide the aptitude and attitude that ASA seeks in pilot candidates. ASA firmly believes the best pilots are those trained not only as excellent airmen and women, but also as customer service professionals and leaders for our airline. We look forward to pursuing relationships with more CAPT graduates in the future and introducing them to our exciting airline.”

ASA hired Allen, Coleman, and Lo just after they successfully completed the CAPT Program’s demanding jet airliner DC-9 series type-rating course. The course teaches airline operations skills and expert knowledge about complex jet transport category operations in an airline environment. Training in the Boeing MD-90, a Level-D simulator with modern ‘glass-cockpit’ displays, full-fidelity visual systems, and six-axis motion capabilities, is recognized by the FAA as jet aircraft time. CAPT cadets log at least 100 hours of flight time and gain experience in both pilot-in-command and second-in-command positions while earning their DC-9 captain’s type rating.

Charles Allen graduated from LaPlata High School in LaPlata, Md. He attended Pennsylvania State University, where he was active in Navy ROTC and the Sigma Phi Epsilon fraternity. He graduated in 2001 with a degree in business logistics.

Andrew Coleman graduated from Saint Mary’s High School in Paducah, Ky. In 2003, he received a bachelor’s degree in aviation management and flight from Jacksonville University. He is president of a property investment and management firm.

Patrick Lo graduated from J.E. McAteer High School in San Francisco, Calif. He attended Embry-Riddle, graduating in 2002 with a bachelor’s in professional aeronautics. He worked as a maintenance technician on DC-8 and Airbus 300 aircraft before enrolling in the CAPT program.

The CAPT Program employs the latest technologies to deliver airline-specific training. These include flight video cameras, self-reflecting journaling, line operations safety audits, and a comprehensive academic curriculum built on crew concepts and crew resource management. More information about the CAPT Program is available at www.captprogram.org, (877) 577-CAPT, or CaptInfo@erau.edu.

Embry-Riddle, the world’s largest, fully accredited university specializing in aviation and aerospace, offers more than 30 degree programs in its colleges of Arts and Sciences, Aviation, Business, and Engineering and meets the needs of students and industry through its educational, training, research, and consulting activities. Embry-Riddle educates more than 30,000 students annually in undergraduate and graduate programs at residential campuses in Prescott, Ariz., and Daytona Beach, Fla., through the Extended Campus at more than 130 teaching centers in the United States and Europe, and worldwide through distance learning.

[montanapilot]

dude if your so enthralled with this program go and do it. "Theres a sucker born every minute"

I'll earn my job rather than buy it thank you very much!


wow a whole 3 people out of how many enrolled?

[Aaron_Kearney]

[ QUOTE ]
wow a whole 3 people out of how many enrolled?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Their program is about getting people hired is it not? So why should it be news when they do manage to get hired?

[tyrael]

From when I've called in, these were the first grads of the program. They are about getting people hired, so this Press Release is just proof of what they are doing.

For some of you that haven't been following the program's birth till now, they just started out about Fall of 2003. Of course, 2004 was full of hurricanes and bad weather, but the Ab Initio classes start every month. There are not that many people enrolled in the program. I think that there are under 100 total students all together. These are the first of the first.

Flying and training in their Diamond Stars is an expensive oppurtunity, but it is a great plane. I've done some hours in a Diamond Star in Southern CA, and I have to say, that I would much prefer to do my training in one. They way that it flies is just a dream come true. It is was flying should have been in the beginning. I'm waiting to see a school start up with the Cirrus! hehe...

What I want to question is that why are there so many haters of the program? Why are people questioning others interest in following news and along with that, trying to make them feel bad for what they want to do?

[sorrygottarunway]

please tell me that while continued success may be good for the program, it doesn't ruin chances of CFIs going through the "paying dues" gruntwork phase to get the same jobs... in other words, is proliferation of this kind of program likely?

[av8trxx]

[ QUOTE ]
Three ASA First Officers Are a First for Embry-Riddle’s CAPT Program

Daytona Beach, Fla., January 24, 2005 – Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University has successfully placed three graduates of its Commercial Airline Pilot Training (CAPT) program as first officers at Atlanta-based Atlantic Southeast Airlines – another milestone for the program, which was started by the university a little more than a year ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny how that came out the day after this-

"UPDATE-- Jan 23, 2005 Depositions for lawsuit against ERAU CAPT Program begin in March now. CAPT is failing its students It is not properly preparing its students for a career in aviation. CAPT claims on its website under Purpose Specific Training that Quote” The result? CAPT graduates are ready for the real world of the airlines immediately upon graduation. As a result, CAPT graduates are sought after by airlines across the country.” Really? Then why are the 8 CAPT grads still unemployed pilots? Even the ones that graduated 6 months ago. The two grads that interviewed CAPT says Quote” Employment paperwork is now being completed for the graduates to begin their training. “ just is not true. Neither grad is working in the aviation industry as a paid pilot, today. Integrity is not a value ERAU CAPT possesses. "

from http://www.captiscrap.com/

[mtsu_av8er]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm waiting to see a school start up with the Cirrus! hehe...

[/ QUOTE ]

Silly rabbit...my flight school has two of them!!

[goaround]

[ QUOTE ]

What I want to question is that why are there so many haters of the program? Why are people questioning others interest in following news and along with that, trying to make them feel bad for what they want to do?

[/ QUOTE ]

A program like that has got to be tough. I bet not everyone that tries to make it through the program will. Just ask whoever supports CAPTISCRAP. Sounds like a dropout with an axe to grind to me. I love to complain about ERAU. It is my favorite past time. But it is only a past time, not my life. GO FLY ERAU!

[kellwolf]

Honestly, I think this has more to do with ERAU's agreement with ASA as a whole and less to do with CAPT. ERAU is jumping on it as a marketting deal. Besides, exactly how much do the DC-9 and the CRJ/ATR have in common? I mean they both have turbine engines and wings, but as far as systems go, I don't see how the CAPT program prepared these guys for ASA.

[goaround]

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, I think this has more to do with ERAU's agreement with ASA as a whole and less to do with CAPT. ERAU is jumping on it as a marketting deal. Besides, exactly how much do the DC-9 and the CRJ/ATR have in common? I mean they both have turbine engines and wings, but as far as systems go, I don't see how the CAPT program prepared these guys for ASA.

[/ QUOTE ]

They have agreements with ASA? What kind?

I think ASA is avoiding a lot of risk by hiring someone who has proven they have the skills and knowledge to make it through their training. If they lose just 2 people in every newhire class that is $30,000 down the drain. A big risk if you are trying to bring on a CFI who has never worked as a crew, or flown anything faster than 150 kts.

[kellwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
They have agreements with ASA? What kind?

[/ QUOTE ]

Reduced hiring mins for ERAU Alumni.
[ QUOTE ]
A big risk if you are trying to bring on a CFI who has never worked as a crew, or flown anything faster than 150 kts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, spoken like someone who knows nothing about being a CFI. Never worked as part of a crew? Dude, do you think CFIs space out while their students fly the plane? Most of my instructors have even gone over CRM issues. The only difference is I haven't taken a formal class in the subject. Faster than 150 knots? Well, my flight school has Cirrus aircraft. They go a little faster than 150 knots. Below 10,000 feet, you're not gonna be flying at .75 mach in a CRJ anyway.

Like I said before, I don't begrudge these guys the job. Their plan worked, and I'm happy for them. I just don't see CAPT as the be-all-end-all training solution, especially for the price.

[sorrygottarunway]

I always thought that being a CFI should be a pre-requisite before being upgraded to captain. Its like the first taste to bring the familiar environment to someone who unfamiliar with it. No other experience in aviation can replace it. But then again no other feeling can replace the way your stomach feels the 3rd night in a row on Ramen.

[kellwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
But then again no other feeling can replace the way your stomach feels the 3rd night in a row on Ramen.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why you mix in things like rice and Mac & Cheese (store brand of course) to break up the routine. It'll be like working at Disney all over again without the park admission benefits.....

[goaround]

[ QUOTE ]
I always thought that being a CFI should be a pre-requisite before being upgraded to captain. Its like the first taste to bring the familiar environment to someone who unfamiliar with it. No other experience in aviation can replace it. But then again no other feeling can replace the way your stomach feels the 3rd night in a row on Ramen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said.
You should not be allowed to upgrade to captain unless you have the ability to teach. A captain is a CFI. Do not become an airline pilot unless you goal is to be a teacher and mentor for the rest of your life.

[sorrygottarunway]

[ QUOTE ]


That's why you mix in things like rice and Mac & Cheese (store brand of course) to break up the routine. It'll be like working at Disney all over again without the park admission benefits.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Kell you should have tasted my omelette today: polish sausage and tomatoes and onions, with a little hot pepper.

YUM!

[kellwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
Kell you should have tasted my omelette today: polish sausage and tomatoes and onions, with a little hot pepper.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait a minute. Meat? Did you pick up an extra student or two?

[firefly]

Innovation in aviation is something that benefits us all as aviators. The premise of the CAPT program may sound suspicious to those accustomed to the traditional path of an aviation career. Of course, all new ideas are (and should be) met with skepticism and thorough critique by people knowledgeable in the field. What CAPT is doing is new, exciting and working. If you are ever in the area of Flagler Beach, Florida (X47) you should check it out. Talk to the students -- not the paid PR reps.

[project7]

[ QUOTE ]
The premise of the CAPT program may sound suspicious to those accustomed to the traditional path of an aviation career. Of course, all new ideas are (and should be) met with skepticism and thorough critique by people knowledgeable in the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

Suspicious isn't the word. Keep in mind that many of the people on this board who don't like the whole CAPT idea are industry professionals who have a better understanding of what it actually takes to make a competent, safe, well-rounded aviator than anyone at CAPT. I could care less if a few CAPT grads get hired at low time into some regionals or FE positions, it's still a bad idea. Check out what happened to Pinnacle in regards to hiring gulfstream grads, the insurance company recognized the problem and told them 'no more'.

These programs aren't designed to help people realize their dreams, they're designed to separate people who don't know any better from their money. CAPT (and others like it) not only damages the industry, but it is rapidly degrading whatever value is left in an ERAU degree.

[francais]

Do hours make a great pilot, is that what you are insinuating, or blatantly saying? I hope not! There is no substantial evidence to support such insidious words. The pinnacle situation was not due to low time pilots. Accident history disfavorably slaps your argument to the turf. Human error is most often attributed to attitude, not time logged, although perhaps the latter is adversely affecting the former, do you feel yourself failing, as the hours build?

[montanapilot]

[ QUOTE ]
What CAPT is doing is new, exciting and working.

[/ QUOTE ]

doing what? having them receive "airline training" by flying circles in General Aviation aircraft?

The fact these 300 hour wonders get a DC-9 type rating is a slap in the face to real type rating holders.

"Hey look ma I got a type rating! But I wont be able to use it for another 1200 hours"

[project7]

[ QUOTE ]
Do hours make a great pilot, is that what you are insinuating, or blatantly saying?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, pretty much. That and experience in many different types of aircraft, flying environments, and a variety of mentors from different areas of aviation.

Just by playing the odds, how many actual emergencies or just plain tight spots will a pilot get into in 300 hours? Probably one or none. Can you count on a 1500 hour pilot to have at least a few good stories? You bet.

I was told at some point that instructors and especially DEs usually have to make the ultimate decision of "would I let this person take my loved ones for a flight?". For me, in regards to a very low-time pilot in an RJ, the answer would be no. Personal opinion of course.

Look dude, you obviously have a very different point of view than I do, and I can respect that. So lets not escalate discussion into arguement (mostly talking about another thread). These discussions are always interesting and I usually learn something in the process, and thats always a good thing.

[ananoman]

I find this thread interesting, not because of the arguments (they are getting old), but because of some of the people involved:

Tyrael has 8 total post and of these 5 can be summarized as, 'CAPT is the Greatest Thing Ever!'

GoAround has 15 total post, all having to do with CAPT.

Firefly has only one post, the one in this thread.

I would have to suspect that all are either employees of Riddle, or mindless CAPT groupies. I woulod guess they are employees.

[ QUOTE ]
Do hours make a great pilot, is that what you are insinuating, or blatantly saying? I hope not! There is no substantial evidence to support such insidious words. The pinnacle situation was not due to low time pilots. Accident history disfavorably slaps your argument to the turf. Human error is most often attributed to attitude, not time logged, although perhaps the latter is adversely affecting the former, do you feel yourself failing, as the hours build?

[/ QUOTE ] As for you Francais, this is the second post where you have attacked and insulted a poster (who probably has more experience than you) who has questioned the wisdom of putting very low time pilots in the pointy end of a jet. All I can say is that you have a lot to learn, and not only about flying. You will not win any friends or influence any people if you insult everyone who disagrees with you.

As for your post, I am not sure what you are trying to 'insinuate'. It is true that accidents spike at certain times as pilot's build time, and some of this is caused by attitude. It is also caused by pilots 'leaving the nest' and flying in more challenging situations and more complex equipment.

Later on in your career you may learn that there are 4 stages to learning.

1. Rote - I memorized it but do not know what it means.
2. Understanding - I understand.
3. Application - I can use what I know.
4. Correlation - I can apply what I have learned to unfamiliar situations.

Most low time pilots are at the application level. They know how to fly and they know the regulations, but it takes effort. For example, they may use little acronyms to help them remember how to set up for an approach. This is not what you want crewing a jet. You want someone who can fly IFR and operate the aircraft with out thinking about it, the same way you drive your car. You also want someone who has the experience and judgment to deal with any unforeseen difficulties that arise during the flight.

For some reason there are always people here who discount experience. It is possible to have a low time pilot who is very good. But they are still probably lacking in some areas. The biggest is probably situational awareness and the ability to deal with new, unexpected situations.

Insurance is often the big bugaboo of aviation. We all like to moan about how much it cost and how much time we have to have to do certain things, but there is a very real reason behind it. The insurance industry could easily make money insuring 300 hour pilots in their new single pilot jets. So, why is it that they will not even consider insuring a pilot at this level of experience? Is it because the insurance companies are stupid? Or is it because they know that there is a high probability that the low time pilot will make a smoking hole in the ground, which will cost them a lot of money? The same goes for FSI, why does one of the largest and most well known training providers have a policy against type rating pilots with less than 1,000 hours. They could possibly make some more money if they did. Are they stupid, or is there a very real reason?

Think about it.

[kellwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
Later on in your career you may learn that there are 4 stages to learning.

1. Rote - I memorized it but do not know what it means.
2. Understanding - I understand.
3. Application - I can use what I know.
4. Correlation - I can apply what I have learned to unfamiliar situations.


[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, remember what CAPT is doing is new, exciting and it works. Soon there will be no more CFIs, so we won't have to worry about this FOI stuff.....

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
Do hours make a great pilot, is that what you are insinuating, or blatantly saying? I hope not! There is no substantial evidence to support such insidious words. The pinnacle situation was not due to low time pilots. Accident history disfavorably slaps your argument to the turf. Human error is most often attributed to attitude, not time logged, although perhaps the latter is adversely affecting the former, do you feel yourself failing, as the hours build?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, young Padawan......so much to learn in the field of aviation.....the reality versus the book theory.



BTW, where did Seth the CAPT answer man go? He's MIA.

[DE727UPS]

"Do hours make a great pilot, is that what you are insinuating, or blatantly saying? I hope not! There is no substantial evidence to support such insidious words."

Experience is what makes a great pilot. Experience in our business is partly defined by hours and partly defined by the way you got those hours. A person who does most of their training in a sim and gets a jet type rating with 300 hours has a very specific and narrow type of experience, and not even very much of that. That person will do better than most in regional airline sim training and maybe even ground school, because it's such a ground intensive program. Where it all falls apart is when you hit the real world outside the training enviornment. The 300 hour, jet type rated, new hire doesn't know enough about the real world to be a proper asset in the cockpit. They need to be babysat. Sure, after a while, they catch up and it's no big deal, other than it will take them a LONG time before they have the hours to upgrade.

When you look at the cost/benefit ratio of a CAPT or FSA direct entry program, you gotta look at whether it's worth it to spend all that money to get hired at 300 hours. For some, it's worth it, but I don't think it's the best way to go. The amount of hours and experience to get on with a regional can be attained the "traditional" way with maybe a year of extra flying if you instruct for a while. Not everyone wants to instruct, for those, I'd say the CAPT scheme might be worth it. For the older career changer who is in a hurry, perhaps a year or two makes a big difference. But for your average young joe looking to get into the profession, in my mind you'll be a much more well rounded pilot and a better stick by doing it the "traditional" way.

Why do I really hate the CAPT program? The marketing statements that make it seem easy to be an airline pilot if you just do their program. I recently got a CAPT brochure in the mail that implied that in one year you'll be flying for Delta. That's irresponsible. If their marketing is BS, then maybe so is the rest of their program.....