TRACON-Only & CTO Certs

[PantherFlyer13]

So the powers that be selected me for a TRACON-only slot at D21 (Detroit TRACON) many months ago. In terms of training at OKC initially, I go to 5 weeks of basics followed by 9 class periods of RTF to learn radar basics, then OJT at my facility.

If I ever want to move on or change facilities, I'm only getting checked out downstairs and won't get any tower cab experience. So how would I go about pursuing a CTO license if I ever wanted one? Would I bid for a tower position at some other facility and get paid to go to OKC for tower cab training? Would I need to take paid vacation time off of work at my present facility to go to OKC on my own dollar to do it myself? Or am I eternally doomed to be a rat in the basement as long as I stay a controller? I'm curious if any TRACON-only guys ever ran into this scenario and what you ended up doing. Cheers!

[tykrtr]

>Would I bid for a tower position at some other facility and get paid to go to OKC for tower cab training?

Possibly. They may not even send you back for that.

>Would I need to take paid vacation time off of work at my present facility to go to OKC on my own dollar to do it myself?

If you bid on a new facility, they will send you if you need to go. You'll get paid -- and perdiem -- for your time.

Don't worry about phase 2. Just get to D21 and get through the training process. Good luck.

[genot]

If you want to transfer to a tower you'd bid for the job after checkout at D21. If selected you'd go back to OKC for the tower class at your full salary plus per diem. Its no different than people sent to up/downs. They hit tower training first then get paid to attend TRACON class. Heck if you wanted to transfer to a center and got picked up it'd be the same thing.

FYI stop busting on us radar only guys. You'd be amazed how much more fun it is. Seeing airplanes is overrated, they're all green and shaped like *.

[HiDef]

Originally Posted by genot

If you want to transfer to a tower you'd bid for the job after checkout at D21. If selected you'd go back to OKC for the tower class at your full salary plus per diem. Its no different than people sent to up/downs. They hit tower training first then get paid to attend TRACON class. Heck if you wanted to transfer to a center and got picked up it'd be the same thing.

FYI stop busting on us radar only guys. You'd be amazed how much more fun it is. Seeing airplanes is overrated, they're all green and shaped like *.

Actually we just had a center guy transfer to our up/down (cti grad, no previous cto) and they didn't send him to OKC for tower training. Thought that was weird since if was the other way around, tower to tracon only/center, they probably WOULD send you to OKC...as if the FAA made sense right?

And about the seeing airplanes...first time ever yesterday, lightning hit our up/down as I was on radar and all the screens went blank. No back up generator, cenrap or anything, it was true non-radar. Made me appreciate the tower all that much more

HD

[pm577]

Do TRACON-only guys have to learn non-radar at OKC? or is that only for en-route?

[HiDef]

Originally Posted by pm577

Do TRACON-only guys have to learn non-radar at OKC? or is that only for en-route?

I learned zero about non-radar at RTF. The only non-radar training I've ever had was at Keesler when I went through tower/radar school for the AF.

HD

[indyserpico10]

Originally Posted by pm577

Do TRACON-only guys have to learn non-radar at OKC? or is that only for en-route?

There is a TRACON only class right next to us that started the same day we did. They sonly go for 7 weeks or something. I could be wrong it could be 9. Anyway... 5 weeks basics and 4 weeks radar so no just en route people train in non radar. I think thats part of the reason they are down here for 4 months.

[PantherFlyer13]

I'm scheduled to go to Air Traffic Basics for 5 straight weeks, either mixed with Terminal folks (Tower, TRACON, Tower/TRACON) or just a class of TRACON-only people. Then only 9 class periods of RTF. I'm not sure how much radar-specific material can be taught or learned in 2 business weeks of classes, but I suppose the 2-3 years of OJT before getting fully checked out makes up for it.

I still think it's backwards and Basics should be 2 weeks while a specialization class should be longer, but I'll see what it's like for myself in a few weeks.

Thanks for all the answers everybody. I wasn't asking because I intend on leaving D21 as soon as I check out. I was just curious what situation a certified controller would be in without holding an actual CTO license.

[biggm16]

so how long will an OTS'er be at okc for tracon? 9 weeks total?

[PantherFlyer13]

I have a 07/01/09 class date and I'm expected to be at my facility for initial indoctrination and HR paperwork on 08/18/09, 7 weeks to the day that I started at OKC. And I'm TRACON-only headed to Detroit TRACON, one of the facilities that is no longer an up/down. Even though construction speaking, the TRACON is co-located underneath the Tower, they are separate entities. I am not assigned to DTW Tower, but to D21 TRACON. So no Tower Cab Training for me. Hope that helps. 5 weeks for Basics plus about 2 weeks for Radar Training (RTF).

[biggm16]

why is tracon training so much shorter at OKC compared to tower and enroute? because for my first TOL for tower, i was going to be at OKC for like 3-4 months and enroute seems like 4-5 months. But for 7 weeks in which only 2 is spent on radar, it seems like why even go? Just start at your facility and start training.

[tk727]

Originally Posted by biggm16

so how long will an OTS'er be at okc for tracon? 9 weeks total?

I started basics on Feb 9th, Tracon only. I finish April 22nd, less than three weeks away! Basics is about 5 weeks. Then you go to ITR, Intro to Radar which is a complete waste of time. It is totally a review of basics, nothing less, nothing more. Then it's on to RTF. The first 10 days are academics. Again, more review. Some new stuff but nothing tough. You spend 9 days in the actual labs. Then off to your facility. It's pass/pass for your PV. There is no option to fail unless you screw up the block tests. If you do that, you shouldn't be moving traffic & have more things to worry about.

[genot]

Originally Posted by biggm16

why is tracon training so much shorter at OKC compared to tower and enroute? because for my first TOL for tower, i was going to be at OKC for like 3-4 months and enroute seems like 4-5 months. But for 7 weeks in which only 2 is spent on radar, it seems like why even go? Just start at your facility and start training.

Well, that 7 weeks isn't including basics. I'd bet a dollar Panther is either military / CTI and gets to skip basics or has the shipping papers confused. Unless they've done some drastic changes, the actual sim portion of RTF is 2 weeks, but the whole course is something like 4 weeks with the other 2 weeks being classroom with some quasi sim stuff tossed in. If you don't have to take basics last I heard you go for an additional 2 week class on the front end. Tower class minus basic is about the same, I think 7 weeks vs 6 weeks for RTF.

Reading the last post confirms that in my mind, including basics 2 and a half months sounds about right.

[PantherFlyer13]

Originally Posted by genot

Well, that 7 weeks isn't including basics. I'd bet a dollar Panther is either military / CTI and gets to skip basics or has the shipping papers confused. Unless they've done some drastic changes, the actual sim portion of RTF is 2 weeks, but the whole course is something like 4 weeks with the other 2 weeks being classroom with some quasi sim stuff tossed in. If you don't have to take basics last I heard you go for an additional 2 week class on the front end. Tower class minus basic is about the same, I think 7 weeks vs 6 weeks for RTF.

Reading the last post confirms that in my mind, including basics 2 and a half months sounds about right.

No prior military experience and my college is still in the process of applying for CTI recognition (Florida Tech). I applied OTS PUBNAT2. This is a quote from the top of my FOL:

"You are required to attend basic air traffic training at the FAA Academy located at the Mike Monroney Aeronautical Center in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, beginning 7/1/2009. Classes will be in session for approximately 25 classroom days. Then you will immediately continue at the FAA Academy beginning 8/5/2009 and attend Intro to Radar Control, which is approximately 9 classroom days."

25 classroom days for Air Traffic Basics ends on 8/4/2009. Then 8/5/2009 through 8/17/2009 I am in Intro to Radar. My facility manager already called me and anticipates me showing up the morning of 8/19/2009 after 1 day of allotted travel time. From Wednesday July 1st to Wednesday August 19th when I arrive at my facility is precisely 7 weeks.

Maybe they're changing the way TRACON-only students are being taught. I never meant to butt heads with anyone already at or complete with the Academy that knows how things have been operated previously. I've just been referencing my own FOL.

Hope that clears stuff up. Cheers!

[HiDef]

Originally Posted by PantherFlyer13

No prior military experience and my college is still in the process of applying for CTI recognition (Florida Tech). I applied OTS PUBNAT2. This is a quote from the top of my FOL:

"You are required to attend basic air traffic training at the FAA Academy located at the Mike Monroney Aeronautical Center in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, beginning 7/1/2009. Classes will be in session for approximately 25 classroom days. Then you will immediately continue at the FAA Academy beginning 8/5/2009 and attend Intro to Radar Control, which is approximately 9 classroom days."

25 classroom days for Air Traffic Basics ends on 8/4/2009. Then 8/5/2009 through 8/17/2009 I am in Intro to Radar. My facility manager already called me and anticipates me showing up the morning of 8/19/2009 after 1 day of allotted travel time. From Wednesday July 1st to Wednesday August 19th when I arrive at my facility is precisely 7 weeks.

Maybe they're changing the way TRACON-only students are being taught. I never meant to butt heads with anyone already at or complete with the Academy that knows how things have been operated previously. I've just been referencing my own FOL.

Hope that clears stuff up. Cheers!

I'm guessing though after 9 classroom days of intro to radar, you will begin an RTF type class for 27 days. 9 days of radar classroom training isn't even close to enough time required to learn and practice basic radar skills. Just my guess as I'm at an up/down.

HD