Where's everyone going?

[chrisdahut1]

I was looking at the dca website earlier on to see the placement list to see if and where some familiar names might have got hired. I noticed that Comair did a crap load of hiring of academy grads over the last few months, and with the exception of the odd expressjet and CHQ hiree, it seems as if Comair doing nearly all the hiring recently.

This brings me to my question- who is everyone going to now that Comair (and I hear ASA too) has freezed hiring? How is everyone reacting to this? I know RAH is still hiring, but looking for higher time EMB170 drivers, which doesn't help many academy guys and has led to some delays until E-145 spots open. My knowledge on Eagle and Expressjet is limited (and I could be wrong on this),but it seems as if they have slowed hiring to only a fraction of what it was last year. Have there been any more agreements with other carriers signed recently?

[FatBastard]

[ QUOTE ]
I was looking at the dca website earlier on to see the placement list to see if and where some familiar names might have got hired. I noticed that Comair did a crap load of hiring of academy grads over the last few months, and with the exception of the odd expressjet and CHQ hiree, it seems as if Comair doing nearly all the hiring recently.

This brings me to my question- who is everyone going to now that Comair (and I hear ASA too) has freezed hiring? How is everyone reacting to this? I know RAH is still hiring, but looking for higher time EMB170 drivers, which doesn't help many academy guys and has led to some delays until E-145 spots open. My knowledge on Eagle and Expressjet is limited (and I could be wrong on this),but it seems as if they have slowed hiring to only a fraction of what it was last year. Have there been any more agreements with other carriers signed recently?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't really say, but I do know that we were told that some of us who were recently hired may be getting shown the door soon at comair, also those who were in line to begin F.O. training we told to look elsewhere and if things improve come back and re-apply (Mike Gilmer sent this via e-mail and phone call)...................sucks to be us right now......... DAMN (9/11)TERRORIST!! Supposedly 1000 total jobs to be lost at CVG- 300 flight crews at Comair. To the best of my knowledge, thats' all I know. (those figures could change)
I only hope the best for everyone on these boards, even those to whom I engaged in verbal sparring matches with. Unemployment(or the prospect of) is the great equalizer.

[FO_SHIZZLE]

The 300 number includes FAs and CSA's as well. The pilot number was about 165. When they met with those of us in training to talk about it I never heard anything about letting us go. There was talk of a possible furlough but even that was something they would try to avoid as much as possible. What will really happen I don't know but I got the impression they would do everything they can to keep everyone.

As far as those with class dates I just assumed that they were put in a pool but I have no idea about those guys.

[FatBastard]

[ QUOTE ]
The 300 number includes FAs and CSA's as well. The pilot number was about 165. When they met with those of us in training to talk about it I never heard anything about letting us go. There was talk of a possible furlough but even that was something they would try to avoid as much as possible. What will really happen I don't know but I got the impression they would do everything they can to keep everyone.

As far as those with class dates I just assumed that they were put in a pool but I have no idea about those guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dead on comments Fo. I just put it in my own words. I know they want to avoid furloughs and I hope like hell they do.

[tomahawk1]

The news from Comair's press release is that it is 300 jobs will get cut from CVG and that they will help in relocating to either other domiciles or help in getting other jobs. There is no real number on pilot crews (however rumors fly..no pun intended) There will, more than likely, be enough attrition from Capt's and FO's going to other airlines to keep from having to terminate or furlough any pilots. IF Comair does terminate or furlough, the academy has been told to help any pilots that we have directly placed with Comair to help get them jobs with our other contracted airlines like Express Jets, Eagle, Chautuaqua, Mesa, Sky West. There will be an announcement later this week.

[DE727UPS]

http://www.deltaconnectionacademy.co...formation.html

Nice timing (Sept 22nd) to have a "come to DCA seminar" at Comair, considering recent events. I just hope that anyone who goes to this event gets a true understanding of how things work in the industry and isn't sold a bill of goods by DCA marketing reps.

"IF Comair does terminate or furlough"

They won't terminate. The Comair pilots union contract would require furloughs in seniority order.

"There will be an announcement later this week."

Keep us posted.

[tomahawk1]

"Nice timing (Sept 22nd) to have a "come to DCA seminar" at Comair, considering recent events. I just hope that anyone who goes to this event gets a true understanding of how things work in the industry and isn't sold a bill of goods by DCA marketing reps."

All I can say is that no one saw that Delta would ask Comair to start cutting back in CVG as well. The even was going to be held by Comair's Pilot recruitment department to let them know about hiring and, of course, DCA's training and not "a bill of goods." It has been moved to the Holiday Inn next to CVG since the response has been overwhelming and we need to have it in a larger venue. Comair's recruitment department will still be there along with some Comair pilots and graduates to talk about the industry.

The reason why I said that some pilots 'might' get terminated, is because if a pilot has not completed his first year or first officer training, he is on probation and not eligible for a furlough, according to airline contracts and the union. However, Comair is not cutting back until December 1st and like I said will probably not have to cut any flight crews due to attrition of pilots and the fact that they are continuing to train new hires in expectation of that fact.

[DE727UPS]

"if a pilot has not completed his first year or first officer training, he is on probation and not eligible for a furlough"

Interesting. Never heard of anything like that before. That really sucks.

"The even(t) was going to be held by Comair's Pilot recruitment department to let them know about hiring and, of course, DCA's training"

"Comair's recruitment department will still be there along with some Comair pilots and graduates to talk about the industry."

So it's not a sales event put on my DCA marketing but real live line guys talking about the industry. Should be interesting seeing that Comair's current owner will probably be in chapter 11 by the 22nd.

We need the jetcareers undercover squad to attend this meeting and let us know how honest it was. I'm skeptical because of the link at the DCA website.

If there is no mention of possible furloughs, Delta's situation, or the state of the industry in general, then I'd say it was less of an educational event and more of a marketing event.

What scares me is a room full of wannabes who know nothing more about the industry than what they read at the big academy websites. Going to a meeting where they are told how great the industry is and how easy it is for them to "go from 700 hours to flying a jet", like the DCA ad says. When, in reality, as the Delta thing plays out, some not so good things may happen at Comair and the other DL connection airlines.

All I'm asking, and have ever really asked for here, is honesty for the wannabe. Is that too much?

A jetcareers link at the DCA website would do wonders...

[tomahawk1]

if a pilot has not completed his first year or first officer training, he is on probation and not eligible for a furlough"

"Interesting. Never heard of anything like that before. That really sucks.

I was involed in recruiting with COEX before it became Express Jets. After 9-11 all the pilots that were in training and that did not finish their probation (1 year) were let go. The pilots that were there for more than 1 year were put on furlough.

"So it's not a sales event put on my DCA marketing but real live line guys talking about the industry. Should be interesting seeing that Comair's current owner will probably be in chapter 11 by the 22nd.

We need the jetcareers undercover squad to attend this meeting and let us know how honest it was. I'm skeptical because of the link at the DCA website.

If there is no mention of possible furloughs, Delta's situation, or the state of the industry in general, then I'd say it was less of an educational event and more of a marketing event.

What scares me is a room full of wannabes who know nothing more about the industry than what they read at the big academy websites. Going to a meeting where they are told how great the industry is and how easy it is for them to "go from 700 hours to flying a jet", like the DCA ad says. When, in reality, as the Delta thing plays out, some not so good things may happen at Comair and the other DL connection airlines."

So why don't you go! There are always going to be a need for pilots, as you know. No one has ever said it is easy to do. I sense you maybe somewhat jealous at what we do at the academy and how close we are to the airlines.... Is that why you always attack us?? Because you did not go this route (through the academy) does NOT make it a wrong way to go. Are you suggesting that the school and the airlines start taking a negative view of the industry and tell people not to become pilots and forget about the industry just because a few of the airlines are restructuring economically to compete??? I thought pilots loved their jobs and the industry??? I gues I'm wrong

[DE727UPS]

"So why don't you go!"

I gotta work!

"Are you suggesting that the school...start taking a negative view of the industry"

I'm suggesting that all schools, CFI's, and line pilots, have a duty to be honest in the way they present the career to the newbie. If Comair might furlough, it should be mentioned at this meeting we are talking about. If it's not, the whole thing is nothing more than propaganda.

"I thought pilots loved their jobs and the industry??? I gues(s) I'm wrong"

I'm not sure how to take that but it's definitely spoken by someone with no real industry experience. Or someone who isn't reading the rest of jetcareers....

[FO_SHIZZLE]

[ QUOTE ]
if a pilot has not completed his first year or first officer training, he is on probation and not eligible for a furlough"

"Interesting. Never heard of anything like that before. That really sucks.

I was involed in recruiting with COEX before it became Express Jets. After 9-11 all the pilots that were in training and that did not finish their probation (1 year) were let go. The pilots that were there for more than 1 year were put on furlough.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not 100% on this but I think you are incorrect here. The way I understood it from the ALPA reps. was that when the new LOA was signed, it put all new hires under furlough protection during that probationary year. The original contract did not have it but the addendum included it. I could go dig out my contract and look it up but I've got limited brain capacity and my Legaleze to English dictionary is missing.

[DE727UPS]

"I'm not 100% on this but I think you are incorrect here"

I hope you're right. It's pretty draconion to not give furlough rights to new hires.

[tomahawk1]

More than likely that won't happen again. There were some REALLY big cuts that were made after 9-11 and to let those pilots go was actually a positive because it allowed them to find other airline jobs. For example: the academy had 14 that were placed with Express Jets and when they were released by COEX, the academy got them jobs with Comair because they were hiring quite a bit after 9-11. It is only a decision that was made to allow new hires at COEX to leave and find new FO positions else where because COEX had no idea how long these furloughs and flow backs with Continental would go on. The airline also left it up to the pilot to deside if he or she wanted to be release if they hadn't made it through probation. It was not forced on them. Some did take furloughs. Just to clarify. It is not going to happen with Comair. They will probably be hiring in a few months. They still have orders for more RJ's that have to be delivered. If they don't get delivered, then Comair pilots get back pay and get pay there pay increases. The reason they took a pay freeze was to get new planes to allow for future hiring. Those planes are still on order for future deliveries. They will be fine. Also, I shouldn't misrepresent myself. It wasn't me that was working with COEX at the time, but a very close friend who handles airline recruitment, who gave me the whole scoop.and some grads that got hired at COEX at that time. Sorry, to have mislead anyone by that statement. However, he does not want to get involved with this website.

[FO_SHIZZLE]

Partially correct. The only planes that were on order were 10 50-seaters. Those have all been delivered as of last week. They do, per the LOA, have to order 25 additional 70 seat aircraft, and have a certain amount delivered by sometime next year, or the LOA will be void, thus the pay returns. So you are correct, they just don't actually have any planes on order at this time.

[abcd]

DE727UPS, This is my first post here after following the drama on here for a few months now. I understand your crusade to inform all of the uninformed people that aspire to give this career a shot. It is very noble but you seem to take it to the point in which you under estimate the intelligence of these people. I would certainly hope that someone about to drop a huge amount of cash and/or change a career for this one would investigate the situation before they get into it. The burden shouldn't be on the company giving the product but the consumer to make an intelligent and thought out decision on that product. I have seen no lies on their website....bottom line is they are affiliated with the airlines..that fact can't be disputed. This is a buisness and I don't understand why people wanting to be in the airline career need more insight than someone wanting to go to college and be a doctor...(dangerous with insurance premiums these days) or a lawyer (more in law school now than actually are lawyers in america) their are drawbacks to every profession but the schools don't tell the potential students all of the drawbacks of the profession..they sell their product and hope people jump on board..it is up to the applicant to have weighed these pro's and cons before they got to that point..why is what DCA doing any different...why do new wannabees need to be spoonfed are the stupid or something? I doubt that. I am sorry for the long post but I just feel that you underestimate people and their ability to make good decisions.

[DE727UPS]

hobo said:
"ive been here 8 months as a student and of the 21 guys that started on their ppl with me i know for a fact seven of them have left. four others are currently looking into switching schools and there were a few guys that i didnt know but have heard they left. however you look at it tho it is a fact that 1/3 left of those seven i ran into two of them recently and they are doing well at ATP"

abcd said:
"I just feel that you underestimate people and their ability to make good decisions."

Seems like quite a few people are talking with their feet. It would be interesting to ask them via an exit interview if they still considered going to DCA a good decision.

I'm all about educating folks about this crazy career I'm in. I think jetcareers does a good job of that. I think DCA does a lousy job of that. A simple link to this site would take away all my worries that those entering the field are mis-educated or mislead.

[hobo]

dca could be more disriminating by helping people make sure they want to be pilots and im sure a lot of people start training and never finish my brother did that. the only problem with DCA is the cost and that everyone i know is over budget. its expensive if youre on budget and awful when youre over and not finding out about that til youre here sucks bad.

[abcd]

DE727UPS said:
"I'm all about educating folks about this crazy career I'm in. I think jetcareers does a good job of that. I think DCA does a lousy job of that."

Why is it DCA's job to educate someone on this career...they are the means to acheiving that career...People come to them because they have already decided that the airline is the way to go for them. They aren't high school counselors doing job surveys for kids. Just like I said before...students in law school don't get the cons and the tragedies of the real world nor do the ones in any college or higher education. It's not their job. I don't think doctors call pre med students and say you get sued all the time, you are always getting called etc. Why should DCA have to tell someone about the pitfalls of the industry. That responcibility goes on the shoulders of the applicant...this is a great place for them to find out information. Judging by the harshness that DCA is attacked then I doubt many who go hear will get a positive view of the academy so you can sleep at night 727. But I have no sympathy for people that go in to something this big blind and cry foul when they can't cut it or it wasn't what they thought from t.v. or adds.

[DE727UPS]

"Why is it DCA's job to educate someone on this career"

Cause it's the right thing to do. I really believe that...

"Judging by the harshness that DCA is attacked"

Total BS, you want to see harsh, go to flightinfo.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=26460

Nobody defends DCA over there. Lately, there have been several guys who speak in a positive way about DCA here. Yourself included.

"Why should DCA have to tell someone about the pitfalls of the industry."

We'll...if they are such a great school don't you think they should have in mind the honest career expectations of their customers. You seem to think like a used car salesman...caveat emptor "buyer beware". I simply think these big academies should be held to a higher standard. Maybe I'm just too old school....

[abcd]

You seem to have scorn for these "bigger academies". A higher standard is fine..but what you seem to be saying is that the FBO route operates on a lower level with lower expectaions. It must be ok for the mom and pop to just put a guy or girl through their ratings without telling them the pitfalls. I know thats not how you feel but I am just tired of you portraying them as the wrong way to go. If you went the old school route and it took you years and paid all your dues and it all worked out...great. If you were in a kid right out of college though now what would you do. Put yourself in their shoes. You probably have school loans already. Would you want to do random jobs build time here and there or would you want to get everything done as quickly as possible and advance your career. It just makes since. No problem in the world with anyone doing it the FBO route...but what's wrong with the "big academies". I wonder if some of these opportunities were around when you went through if you wouldn't have considered it. I'm sure you will have an answer for it but what is wrong with doing it full time/ an accellerated program.?

[abcd]

DE727UPS, by the way, i'm not out to pick fights with you I promise. Like I said before I know you have the intrests of people in mind and thats a good thing. I am not a used car salesman, of course I don't want anyone sold down the river but people need to be accountable for things as well. That's all i'm saying.

[DE727UPS]

"I'm sure you will have an answer for it but what is wrong with doing it full time/ an accellerated program.?"

Nothing. How did our argument end up with that?

"but what you seem to be saying is that the FBO route operates on a lower level with lower expectaions"

One nice thing about the FBO route is you get your ratings and put in your time. You get hired based on your quals and not a "program" cause your academy "has the connections". This even happens at DCA when guys don't hang around for the guaranteed interview but are able to depart DCA before their contract is up. They got hired cause of their experience, not cause they had the "guaranteed interview".

The problem with big academy marketing touting their "program", rather than just good old fashioned time and experience, is that "programs" can change. "Program" airlines can stop hiring or even furlough. While the guy who has the time and experience has many options. The marketing should be touting the quality of the school, not, "you'll get hired if you train with us cause WE have the connections"

It's BS, any professional pilot can see it for what it is.

[SteveC]

[ QUOTE ]
You seem to have scorn for these "bigger academies"....<snip>...but I am just tired of you portraying them as the wrong way to go....<snip>...No problem in the world with anyone doing it the FBO route...but what's wrong with the "big academies".

[/ QUOTE ]

I may be out of place by stepping in here, but I'll put my opinion in anyway.

I don't think that Don has ever said anything bad about the academies' programs, just their marketing practices. I'm pretty much in agreement with many of the things that DE says regarding how they market and subtly play to young people's unrealistic expectations. That said, I don't have a problem with the quality of the pilots that they put out, and I doubt that Don does either. (I sometimes have a problem with a few of the academy pilot's assertion that they are "better" simply because of where they trained, but that's a different subject entirely.)

My bottom-line opinion on many of the academies: good training, deceptive marketing, high prices, unreasonable career expectations, good training.

[abcd]

It would be very annoying to be around some guy that is acting high and mighty about his flying skills for no other reason than where he/she went to get their training. There is no reason for that. Don't get me wrong I'm not advocating the marketing for DCA...go ahead and put a link here in my opinion but some things are out of everyone's control. Who would have thought three months ago comair would start a hiring feeze after ordering new jets and interviewing like wildfire. As far as academy programs...well they seem to work for those that get through. I don't think anyone disputes that here..I think the problem is for the new guy getting from point a to b as a student and leaving. That's another issue for another day. A lot of that comes from dca's attitude but it also goes both ways..some people just don't mesh with it their due to money, attitude, whatever. The fault rests on both parties shoulders. I think the next few months will be a good lithmus test for how the programs do work and fit...when no one seems to be hiring or interviewing we will see if people keep getting throught the academy and keep getting to the regionals. As far as the experience thing goes you are right..you can't put a price on that..some of those 10 plus 4 people are in a lot of trouble if they get cut from Comair in december...they are 700 hour pilots at that point and will have trouble finding a place to work if they choose not to stay with Comair, but for the instructors leaving here with their 1000total time then the door opens for them a bit more..they will have other options should some doors close.

[dcapilot]

I haven't posted in quite a while, so I thought I'd chime in.

Never has DCA guaranteed me a job. Never has Comair or any other Delta Connection airline told me that because I attended the academy or work as an instructor at the academy that I will be hired. DCA makes it very clear that although they do "guarantee" you an interview....that it is up to YOU to get that job. It is offensive that anyone would say DCA graduates are hired strictly because of the "program" they went through and not based on their qualifications.

When DCA graduates go to an airline to interview, they are put through the SAME interview that everyone else is. To honestly think otherwise is a shame......



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