Pointless Forum?

[Doug Taylor]

This is certainly the "Falluja" of the forums as it's only product is "busywork" for moderators.

So I ask myself, "Self? Why not just put the DCA forum out of it's misery?"

Thoughts?

[DE727UPS]

Hummm.

I like to think newbies that might come to jetcareers because they are interested in a certain flight academy will find a more realistic picture of reality, good and bad, after reading through the forums. Maybe you need more moderators.

[Mike Lewis]

For a week there it was nice and quiet and things were good while people were respectful.

The forum would be useful if people handled the good and the bad with logic, professionalism, courtesy, and respect for one another, even if they disagree with them.

However the "no you're not" "yes I am" threads probably don't endear any prospective students to the school, IMHO.

I don't think it's more moderators that is the answer; it's more of a "how long do we let the train wreck go before we put it out of its misery" dilemna that we have to figure out amongst the existing moderators. We have let some threads hang out for well past the expiration date before we lock them or flush them, something that all of us on the site are very reluctant to do. We want to allow a free and open discussion, but it's often very certain that some people don't want that and will do all they can to send a thread to the blue goo (again, IMHO).

It's like I said before - do you want to use this forum to improve the school or destroy it? If it's the former, I say keep the forum; if it's the latter, it's probably not doing anyone any service in keeping it open - there are plenty of other places to trash the school instead of a forum solely devoted to it.

[MCP]

I agree with UPS.

DCA was actually my first choice when I began looking at the different flight schools. Not only did this forum inform me, but it also saved me around, I'm guessing, close to $70,000.

I think there is always going to be a certian level of "be true to your school", and that is fine. However, Jetcareers exists to keep people informed of the good as well as the bad aspects of both flying and the schools that teach it.

I consider this website imperative reading and I tell everybody I know about it, whether or not they are interested in flying. You never know when they might know somebody who is interested in persuing a career in this field.

[DE727UPS]

"Jetcareers exists to keep people informed of the good as well as the bad"

And I think there are plenty of folks here who talk about DCA's positive traits.

[Pirep]

Pointless forum? I often wondered why I still read this forum. It's about the only forum I read or post on (mostly because I actually went and taught there and can offer the truth of my experience). The reason I do take the time to read and post once in awhile is to see what truths, falsehoods or agendas are being spouted off in here. I feel sort of an obligation to tell "the rest of the story" if I can or know something of the situation. Is it getting pointless? I think very redundant is more like it. Someone asks a legit question, then some New poster tries to cut off the legs of the school for whatever agenda, an instructor (or so they say) will agree and second the post a few minutes later (also a new poster), then another instructor will pipe in and defend the school, then montana will kick in with something, then UPS will kick in and beat up marketing and the school for awhile, then fatbastard will sue someone, then an old alumni will post trying to paint more of the picture. Redundant, redundant, redundant. Maybe if all of the usual suspects stop posting in this Forum, it will go back to being new and novel. Doug, why not just block myself, UPS, Montana, Fatbastard, luv2av8 (and alter ego), et al. that usually post in this forum. That way this forum might not take up so much of your attention and actually might say something new instead of the usual bantor. I'd personally would be all for that, I could find much better things to do with my time then read the same things over and over. Any other takers?.

[FatBastard]

[ QUOTE ]
This is certainly the "Falluja" of the forums as it's only product is "busywork" for moderators.

So I ask myself, "Self? Why not just put the DCA forum out of it's misery?"

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Doug, I must agree with Mike Lewis. Thise thread show both sides of the issue and I agree the consumer must make a well informed choice. Of course if I had listened to you as well as all the rest of the JCers,............. well................. you know the story.

I hope thoughts can be exchanged professionally and we can all cut the personal attacks out. Or Doug, just break out the Pimp Stick!!
(Cue Gin and Juice, Playas and Pimps!!)
Top much Chappelle- whatever.

[DE727UPS]

"Doug, why not just block myself, UPS, Montana, Fatbastard, luv2av8 (and alter ego), et al. that usually post in this forum."

Hummm. That's blocking one pro (you) and four cons. I'll agree to if you block Foz, FO, and Nixon, too.

[FO_SHIZZLE]

I'll do it

[Doug Taylor]

More moderators aren't really the answer. In fact, it'd probably create more "where did my post go?" and PM's about me being a forum Nazi about moving some non aviation-related post to the Lavatory because he, and I quote, "...wanted maximum effect by having it in General Topics".


I'll admit, I am no fan of the school, that's been made abundantly clear throughout the history of this website. I'm not a fan of the marketing, I'm not a fan of how the literature always seems to focus on where they can supposedly get you instead of focusing on the quality of the education, etc.

Show some respect for one another. Because when you don't, all you do is embolden and confirm predispositions of the 'other side'.

Like the program? Put your ego in your back pocket and explain away.

Don't like the program? Put your ego in your back pocket and explain away.

You'll reach a lot more people with a reasoned, unemotional dialogue.

[MikeD]

Indifferent about DCA, as I am all academies and flight training places.

I just don't like having to come back to this south central ALL the time!

[Doug Taylor]

No doubt!

It's like a bunch of six year olds beating the crap out of each other under the guise that before someone loses an eye, one of the hall monitors is going to separate the melee.

[FatBastard]

[ QUOTE ]
No doubt!

It's like a bunch of six year olds beating the crap out of each other under the guise that before someone loses an eye, one of the hall monitors is going to separate the melee.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did somebody say 6 year olds? (Mouthwatering) Little wee babies? MMMMMMMMMMM.........Babies................... (Drool rolls down face) And there already tenderized by beating each other up............. OHHHHH YEA!!!

Oh, sorry I got caught up in fantasty. (My attempt at a little comedic relief)

Doug, I agree with your previous post. Keep the emotions out, and post away. Only thing though, if someone feels like they have been disadvantaged, that may be a tall order, IMHO.

[FatBastard]

Anymore comments? Anyone?

[MuscleShirt]

While I agree that this forum has been a sorority cat fight much of the time, I feel that doing away with it all together would be unfair.

Our school is one of the big ones, and whether people like DCA or not, it still deserves some attention when discussing flight schools. Pirep doesn't have a bad idea, but then we could just as easily get into a scuffle over who should be able to post and who should not. What I think a lot of people in this forum need to do is go back and read what Doug wrote as he was locking up the last thread. Some of the posts I've seen on here have been so horribly immature that I really do forget that I am supposed to be reading words typed by a professional pilot. That scares me...

Let's keep this forum up and running, let's stay professional, let's be informative!!! That's all I ask of anyone posting in MY SCHOOL's forum!!!!

Thanks!

[luv2av8]

everyone keeps mentioning this "professional" ideal...does anyone even know what it means? How is a heated arguement not professional? How does statement/rebutle not conform to the standards of our profession? And if anyone pulls the mature card im gonna bust out my own respect stick... There have been mild or incinuated threats which are certainly too far, but even those were not nearly direct! Evaluation of professionalism has no place in these forums. And MikeD I am gracious for your support moderating these boards, but I take great offense to your statement regarding any of our abilities to take responsibility for passengers. I dont know what kind of "unit" you operate, but if you operate with anything remotely close to aviation, you'd know that emotions are left at the preflight. This is a friggin internet forum! Not our life! So please be weary of your implications or flat out insults to our abilities.

pardon the spelling, wouldnt want another hoo haa to quote my mistakes and put it on a crucifix for all to see.

[SteveC]

[ QUOTE ]
<snip>...but I take great offense to your statement regarding any of our abilities to take responsibility for passengers. I dont know what kind of "unit" you operate, but if you operate with anything remotely close to aviation,<snip>

[/ QUOTE ]
FYI, MikeD (Captain, USAF) is currently stationed in Korea and flies an F117 "Nighthawk" (Stealth) fighter. Previous A-10 "Warthog" driver with two tours of combat duty. Extensive civilian flying prior to military service, including Part 135 freight operations. ERAU grad.

Just as a general observation you may want to find out how big the boots are that someone wears before you go stepping on their toes. Then again, maybe not.

[Doug Taylor]

Spicy discussion is fine, but let's not confuse a Jerry Springer-style melee with Dr. Phil ripping in on an indifferent husband about taking care of his family.

Personally, and I mean this as constructively as possible, but if I was a potential student of DCA, admittedly the forum would have turned me off long ago.

Check out any other forum on the site, mostly if someone says 'Hey! Only losers go to XYZ' there's at least some aire of reasoned debate. But here, holy cow, everyone's flinging warm steamy poo like angry monkeys at the zoo!

I'm not sure how to define professional, but don't in a million years think that this is a big industry. Playing "Seven Degrees of Iain Holmes" wouldn't be a challenge for any two aviators.

[JEP]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure how to define professional, but don't in a million years think that this is a big industry. Playing "Seven Degrees of Iain Holmes" wouldn't be a challenge for any two aviators.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sing along now:


"It's a Small world after all......"

[DE727UPS]

"Anymore comments? Anyone?"

Personally, I've think some of the exchanges between FatBastsard and some of the DCA guys have crossed MY line of internet decorum. If I was a MOD, a good deal of the exchanges between FatBastard and the rest would have disappeared as soon as I read them. In my view, the MOD's at jetcareers are way too loose with what's allowed. No disrespect to the fine folks that run this site...but that's what I think.

FatBastard, an unusually high number, no, I'll say an unprecedently high number of your posts cross the line and the MOD's should have made them go away.

And you can keep your naked baby humor to yourself...

[foztofly]

I hate to say this, but I actually agree with luv2av8 in a way here. I think his (MikeD) generalization that "none" of the people here are deserving of carrying pax is a bit over-dramatic. That "none" would include posters such as UPS and Doug. Well, maybe not UPS since he is cargo, but is still an experienced pilot. Granted, frustration may have set in a bit, as it did with me the other night in a response, but that is no justification for including everyone on this forum, no matter if you fly a stealth fighter or not.

Once again, I will ask about a 3-strike rule if you want to implement more "control". NOt to point fingers or show how a certain self-appointed "cease and desist" order has not been complied with, but again look at the last post prior to shutting down the threads. If you wanna block one pro for every con, then by all means I will volunteer too as a pro as others have. If we can remember that the point here is to help in the education of potential aviators, it should remain somewhat civil. If certain people can't keep that agenda on the forefront, whether pro or con, then block them. Myself, Wannabe, FO Shizzle, Planediveguy, MNixon included so you don't think I am trying to be biased.

Doug, as a supporter I somewhat agree with your comment that you would have been turned away a long time ago, except that it would have just turned me away from reading about DCA here, not researching DCA as a quality provider of flight training. You don't agree with the marketing of DCA (which I am not condemning or praising you for) but in all honesty do you think the company you work for has not approved of the ads since their name is in bold letters on it? I personally don't know the answer, but my guess would be that they have seen them and given the thumbs up. Considering your management was here to help unveil the new paint scheme when the name changed (without local or national media attention), I would guess they are involved. There are enough "ambulance chasers" out there, that I am sure the counsel involved is extremely careful how to word and present information on the school. If I were DCA marketing, you would be right in assuming that I would ask that airline if it is ok to use their name the way I do in the ads. Does this make the way you interpret the marketing wrong?? Not necessarally(sp?). Does this make the way I interpret the marketing right? Not necess.. As one said, it is all about perception. When people start accusing the school of blatant lies and gross misreprensentations of the truth, then yes I am going to come to the school's defense. Are we the only route to a Delta regional carrier, not at all and nor do the ads claim to be. Making all the difference? For some, yeh, others no. If I had stayed at the part 141 FBO I was at, my guess is that it would have taken me over 1500 TT to get to a secondary regional since that is the minimum that their instructors are leaving with now. Add in another 1000 or so to qualify for a primary regional interview (see FO Shizzle's ad about the others he was interviewing with) and I think DCA is making all the difference for me. I know I keep a positive spin on the school and it's marketing, but I am not telling prospects how to interpret the ads. What comes to mind is how Wannabe pointed out awhile ago how several ads in Flying other than DCA were self-promoting and claiming to be "the best" and the topic was dropped until forgotten about. Then our ads were once again blasted for trying to incite interest in the school, which in my mind is what ads are intended for, not to sell the end product. Ok ok.. enough already. Just had to ramble a bit since I couldn't sleep.

[foztofly]

[ QUOTE ]
"Anymore comments? Anyone?"

Personally, I've think some of the exchanges between FatBastsard and some of the DCA guys have crossed MY line of internet decorum. If I was a MOD, a good deal of the exchanges between FatBastard and the rest would have disappeared as soon as I read them. In my view, the MOD's at jetcareers are way too loose with what's allowed. No disrespect to the fine folks that run this site...but that's what I think.

FatBastard, an unusually high number, no, I'll say an unprecedently high number of your posts cross the line and the MOD's should have made them go away.

And you can keep your naked baby humor to yourself...

[/ QUOTE ]

Without pointing fingers, UPS I couldn't agree more with your post. Uh ohh.. watch out, hell might be freezing over... lol

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
but I take great offense to your statement regarding any of our abilities to take responsibility for passengers. I dont know what kind of "unit" you operate, but if you operate with anything remotely close to aviation, you'd know that emotions are left at the preflight. This is a friggin internet forum! Not our life! So please be weary of your implications or flat out insults to our abilities.

pardon the spelling, wouldnt want another hoo haa to quote my mistakes and put it on a crucifix for all to see.

[/ QUOTE ]

Take all the offense you want, but I call them as they are. If "statement and rebuttal" were all you guys were doing here on the forum, that'd be one thing. But repeated personal attacks, even when warned to knock those off, is far from simple statement and rebuttal. My approach to the problem was a "shotgun blast" warning to all, specifically to those involved. If you think it applies to you, then take it to heart. If you weren't one of the culprits, then you have nothing to worry about. And judging professionalism? Why don't we start with arguing without personal attacks, and following a simple set of ROE (rules). How about that? And me remotely close to aviation? I'd say I've got about, conservatively-speaking, 12 years and 5000 hours on any of the people here. So don't talk to me about brief/debrief and preflight ROE, I've been there in spades. This may be a "friggin internet forum", but there are rules to follow, and if people are incapable of following such simple rules over and over or simple lack the attention to detail, then I have to question if they can follow same said rules anywhere else; so I did. Greatly offended are you? Well.......all I can say is that if your actions reflect what I've been talking about here, then there's not much I can do about that. Grow a thicker hyde. If your personal actions here don't reflect what I've described, then you have nothing to worry about.

And I'm not taking any sides here. For the record, I couldn't give a tinkers-damn about DCA, ATP, Skymates, FBOs or anywhere else. None of these places have anything that I remotely need from them, so it's not as if I'm taking any sides with the pro or anti DCA crowd. Both sides are failing to follow simple rules about no personal attacks, and both sides are lacking professionalism with not being able to argue the issues only. The last straw was Fat Bastard blatently breaking the rule with a "retaliatory" personal attack, then attempting to defend said personal attack with a "caveat" in the next paragraph. He's not the only one, like I say, some people from both sides are responsible, not all. So again, if my description applies to you, then take it to heart, if it legitimately doesn't, then you have nothing to worry about.

For the record, I tend to side with UPS that we (the mods) have been a little lax in this forum, so far as enforcing the rules. Combing through this place, there's far more chaff than wheat in the threads. And that's pretty sad. I can understand getting caught up in an argument here and there, and a remark is thrown out....that happens, and I agreed with one of the posters here via PM that that's understandable every now and then. Why this part of the forum is so much more of a babysitting adventure with a few of the crowd, as compared to the other school forums here is still a mystery to me. If you guys (the guilty ones on both sides) want to make yourselves look bad, that's your perogative. I personally would strive for not doing that. But that's just me.

End of story.

[Doug Taylor]

Moderation is a delicate balance.

If you over-moderate, which no one really has time for, the forum becomes Disneyed. People start posting at-will under the guise that if it isn't acceptible, one of the babysitters will scold and erase.

if you under-moderate, which is normally the case, we end up with micro Falluja's and then one of us has to break out the pimp stick occasionally.

I think a more open but 'big picture' approach to people frequenting the DCA forums would work best -- as it becomes 'self moderating' like most other topics in the forum.

[DE727UPS]

Foz, at the risk of being accused of being redundant, or having no life for posting this at 137am, I'm not going to refute your post in which you attempt to defend DCA's marketing and advertising. It's all been said before.

This time, we'll have to simply agree to disagree.