Prospective Student

[gruntman]

Hello everyone here on Jet Careers. I am a first time JC person here and have been looking at these threads over the past year or so while I have been in the military. I am so glad to be home and am ready to start doing some flight training and pursue my dream and goal of becoming an airline pilot. I know that many times these threads can be a bit “spirited,” negative (to say the least) and biased. However, I have done A LOT research and spent A LOT of time and energy looking at different flight schools and academies and would like some no nonsense constructive information about these schools. My situation is that I have a wife and 2 children (ages 1 and 3) and am 32. So I really don’t want to mess around. I want the best training for my money and get the most out of it and I want to use my VA money, with the possibility of a direct path to an airline. I have done some flight training before I joined the Army at an FBO (never finished my Private) and don’t really want to do that because I didn’t think that it was as well structured and most of the instructors there have been instructing for more than 2 to 3 years and waiting around for multi engine time and waiting for someone to interview them, as well. So here is some of the information I have found. And this is the order of the order of schools that meet what I am looking for. Keep in mind I will need some living expense money of around $2K per month and my wife is a nurse and makes pretty good cash! Talking to most schools they say it takes around 10 months or so to finish as a student. I figured 14 months to be safe. I may not need it, but it is good to be worse case senerio. Since most schools pay you around $1,000 per month as a CFI, I figured I would have to cut back then in my living expenses when I get to that level or have my wife work overtime! Also, I figured in the ‘average’ pay for the airlines they say they place their graduates with to see what the first couple of years would be like. I put these in order of schools that I liked, as far as placements, airline agreements, pay after training.
1- Regional Airline Academy- Cost: $72,000 with type rating/ Time to Airline: 14 to 24 months/ Plus costs with living expenses @ $2K per month while a student for about 14 months is $28K bring the total to $100,000. Airlines hiring are Express Jets, American Eagle, Trans States. Avg. pay for first officer 1st yr $21k, 2nd yr pay $34k. VA approved.
2-Flight Safety- Cost: $76,000/ Time to Airline: 12 to 24 months/ Plus cost of living @ $2k per month is (at worst 14 mos to finish as student) $104,000. Airlines hiring are ASA, American Eagle, Express Jets. Avg pay 1st yr 20k, 2nd yr pay 37k. VA approved.
3- Delta Connection Academy- cost is $68,000/ time to airline: 16 to 24 months/ cost with living expenses @ 2K per month (at worst 14 mos as a student) is $96,000. Airlines hiring: Comair, ASA, Express Jets, Chautauqua, American Eagle, SkyWest, Tran States. Avg Pay for FO position 1st yr 23k and 2nd yr pay is 38k. VA approved.
4- ATP- cost of program from 0 to airline is $81,000 for quickest path/ time to airline is 12 months. Cost with 14 months of living expenses @$28K is $109,000. Airlines hiring: Express jets, Chautauqua, Great Lakes, American Eagle, Cape Air, Pinnacle. Avg pay 1st year FO is $19,000 and 2nd yr pay 32k. No VA.
5-Pan Am- cost of program: $68,000/ time to airline is 24 months/ cost with living expense of $28k for 14 months of training is $96,000. Airlines hiring: Chautauqua, Great Lakes, Mesaba, Piedmont, Chicago Express. Avg pay 1st yr is 19k and 2nd yr pay is 29k. VA approved.
At the end of the day, I found that these schools are all going to run me around $100K when all is said and done. The main thing is, which school is going to get me the job with the best regional airlines in the business and which school has the best contacts with the airlines. Any feed back from alumni from these schools or current students, would help.

[JEP]

I'll start here since it was yoru first post of the four.

1st Welcome to the boards!
2nd You might be better off posting this in one place...like the general section. There's no need to repost the same thing 4 times.

[ QUOTE ]
The main thing is, which school is going to get me the job with the best regional airlines in the business and which school has the best contacts with the airlines.

[/ QUOTE ]
3rd No one school is going to get you the guaranteed job. Each of the schools mentioned has placed people with the regionals in the last year as there are many that are hiring. Nobody knows if Airline "X" will be hiring when you do finish your training. Don't but into the hype.

just a couple of other things from what I have seen here:

ATP will get you done the fastest at the exact price quoted ! But yes, they are not VA approved. If you get hired as a CFI, they will also get you the coveted multi time that will eventually get you looked at by a regional.

The others listed may or may not get you done on-time at the quoted price. From what I have seen it will also take you quite a bit longer. All though some may take longer, if you have the VA bene's it may work better for you that way.

Not trying to rain on your parade, just passing along info that I have gathered in my time here.

And Again.....Welcome to JC !

[montanapilot]

why not just go to your local part 141 school. there are quite a few that are approved. You would save yourself alot of money as opposed to these academys.

[ QUOTE ]
and which school has the best contacts with the airlines

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the lie these places put out for prospective students. You dont need a school "placement" with an airline to get hired. Your hours and experience matter more than some bu$$sh%t "inside connection"

[ERJ-135]

If you decide to go the FBO route, find one that offers formal ground school classes for all Certificates and ratings. I did the FBO route for Private and then went to Riddle and obtained the Commercial/Instrument and CFI’s. There was a big difference between both programs and Riddle was far superior in both ground school classes and flight training. There are really good FBO’s and there are not so good FBO’s. Same with flight schools and academies. The only way you will decide is to make a list of schools/FBO’s that seem to have the programs that you need and visit each. Take time to talk with the management, flight instructors, and most important, the students. If a school will not allow time to talk with the students, then I would take a long look at “why not” and move on to another school.

Don’t be fooled with the fancy ads that promise airline interviews and job guarantees. Only the airlines can provide the interviews and offer airline pilot positions. Most of the “big name schools” use the airline connection as a marketing tool to entice potential students to enroll in their program. There are no “free lunches” and it will cost more at the “big name” flight schools and academies. Consider the cost and time it will take to finish the program. Have your credit and loan financing established. This will allow you to see and have an idea of how much you will pay each month for the loan. Can you live on $1,800 a month and still pay the loan each month?

[mnixon]

[ QUOTE ]
why not just go to your local part 141 school. there are quite a few that are approved. You would save yourself alot of money as opposed to these academys.

[ QUOTE ]
and which school has the best contacts with the airlines

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the lie these places put out for prospective students. You dont need a school "placement" with an airline to get hired. Your hours and experience matter more than some bu$$sh%t "inside connection"

[/ QUOTE ]

some bu$$sh%t "inside connection"

Why don't you think about that comment next time you get your resume walked in by a buddy at an airline. Or hey if your going coroporate, why don't you go over to flightinfo and ask the guys on the corporate forum how non-effective "some bullsh#t inside connection" is. Your words not mine.

[Doug Taylor]

One of the things that we preach over here is networking.

Getting connections in the business isn't as simple as the flight school you choose, it's all about contacts you make.

I went to Riddle and I can't remember anyone saying "RIddle grads, needed NOW!" anywhere. However, I have greatly benefitted from meeting friendly people with a genuine interest in mutual success, ie 'networking'.

I could really care less what another website may think about the above statement, because I built this site on the value and priciples of networking.

[montanapilot]

[ QUOTE ]
some bu$$sh%t "inside connection"

Why don't you think about that comment next time you get your resume walked in by a buddy at an airline. Or hey if your going coroporate, why don't you go over to flightinfo and ask the guys on the corporate forum how non-effective "some bullsh#t inside connection" is. Your words not mine.

[/ QUOTE ]


maybe your too dense to realize that i'm not talking about a recommendation. I m talking about the lie your beloved "connection" tells when they claim "placement at the airline". Getting your resume walked in by a buddy and needing some flight school to pull strings are quite different.

[JEP]

[ QUOTE ]
some bu$$sh%t "inside connection".....Why don't you think about that comment next time you get your resume walked in by a buddy at an airline. Or hey if your going coroporate, why don't you go over to flightinfo and ask the guys on the corporate forum how non-effective "some bullsh#t inside connection" is. Your words not mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, come on! I have never met montanapilot and I can tell that he is talking about two different thing. Going to *insert school here* because of a connection and the networking needed in this industry are two different things.

Networking does not equal : "some bullsh#t inside connection"

Apples and Oranges my brother...........

[Pirep]

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
and which school has the best contacts with the airlines

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the lie these places put out for prospective students. You dont need a school "placement" with an airline to get hired. Your hours and experience matter more than some bu$$sh%t "inside connection"

[/ QUOTE ]


No, you don't need a school placement to get hired by the airlines. Does it help? Ask the people who got interviews set up at a good regional at a time when hardly any airline, cargo company, or any flight school for that matter were hiring. If they didn't get that job, another interview was set up shortly thereafter with a quick phone call (this was one of those bu$$sh%t connections). Montana, you might not have been flying yet, but just a few short years ago, trying to get hired at any airline was a minor miracle. People really hated the Academy then because they were about the only CFI's getting hired at the time. It made for great posts on here. Many, many people jumped ship to do their CFI's here so they could get an opportunity to interview at a good regional (Comair). It worked for many of them, smart move at the time to get a seniority number. This, in my opinion, is why the school increased their rates and marketed the way the did (which we all know how much people like the marketing here). The whole supply and demand thing. The school was getting CFI's jobs, CFI's wanted the job. Then the market changed. Unfortunately for the majors, scopes were lifted, regionals got more planes. Cheap pilots were needed (but that is another story).
Everyone on here seems to forget how bad the hiring situation was a few years ago.
Hours and experience are needed, but they are not even close to the only thing. Networking and connections get you the interview, unless airlines are pressed for people, (Then they go to another pile of resumes), but that's another story. Please wait to spout off until you've at least gotten through with your first CFI interview. If you haven't been through it yourself, it's better to ask questions, learn the whole story then you can add your own perspective built on, yes you guessed it in your own words, "hours and experience".

[DE727UPS]

"Ask the people who got interviews set up at a good regional at a time when hardly any airline, cargo company, or any flight school for that matter were hiring."

I agree with that. There was a time when the guaranteed interview could have been an important factor. I think, in today's world, it's not a big deal. Many regionals are hiring and the hiring mins are pretty close to what a DCA guy is going to have after he does his 800 hours as a CFI.

[gruntman]

I do believe that a guaranteed interview is important if you are going to invest any amount of money in a flight school. I do know that the airlines are hiring. I have been to a number of airline networking workshops and have done research on the airlines. However, if at the end of spending 40K to 70K on a school, it does make sense to have that cushion of an interview with an airline to save time networking (which is fine; there is nothing wrong with going that route if one chooses) It just makes common sense to have that interview. I have spoke to a ton of pilots that have spent months trying to get interview at some of the airlines minimums only to be told that they needed different, quality of flight time. I would prefer that a program give me that opportunity to earn that job and get that interview with a higher paying regional. Jsut like investing in a business or stock; you get more in return and better quality,if you invest more.

[dpewing]

I did the math and when you compare getting your ratings at your local FBO versus DCA the Guaranteed Interview costs about $40,000. Another way to look at it is that even if I had to hire an instructor to fly with me in a multi-engine A/C I could spend my $40,000 and buy at least 150 ME hours. I visted DCA and was impressed with what I saw. I asked a lot of questions and recieved very good answers. The only reason I changed my mind about attending DCA was the cost.

My 2 cents.

[Doug Taylor]

I'm of the opinion that if I had a son or daughter looking to conduct flight training, I'd certainly focus solely on quality of training.

Networking is absolutely free and you're not specifically married to a particular range of regionals that any flight school has a track record of placing students with.

I'm not quite sure what the enormous rush is because, quite frankly, all of the things that I encountered on my trek to a major were actually, in retrospect, quite a bit more fun than what I'm doing now aviation-wise.

Hell, I still want to fly F-18's off an aircraft carrier. I can shoot visuals into ATL nine times a day when I'm 80 years old.

[hobo]

gruntman
hope this isnt too late but if it is maybe it will help others.
for DCA your timeframe is off. it is not a 16 to 24 month program. it definately takes 12 months just as a student. ive not met anyone whos beaten that significantly. there are stories of "this guy that finished in 7 months" but no one can tell me his name not even the admissions rep that told me the story. im at 7 months and in the middle of commercial single and right in the middle of the 20 other guys that started 0 time with me. we are all within a few weeks of each other. as for instructors their speed varies. the standz break is apparently gone right now and ive seen one guy who got to an airline in about nine months but he had a 4 month standz break during which he got 200 hours off of his 800 hour contract with delta. 800 dual given is the standard contract unless you want to pay 10000+ for your own bridge program then its 400 and as for building time as an instructor my instrument instructor had been there 8 months and had 120 hours, his friend at 8 months had 80, so you should figure on a minimum of 12 months of instructing which makes the program minimum 24 months and several instructors that i know are on food stamps.

[JAM]

My time spent as a student lasted 8 months. Granted, that was coming in with a private.

[ERJ-135]

"as for building time as an instructor my instrument instructor had been there 8 months and had 120 hours, his friend at 8 months had 80, so you should figure on a minimum of 12 months of instructing which makes the program minimum 24 months and several instructors that i know are on food stamps."

This is one of the big problems with this type of school, supply and demand. They create the supply of students, however, the demand for Regional pilots is not up to the supply of CFI's that have finished the required time and hours. How can a CFI live on 15 hours of pay in one month. That is only correct if your stated CFI flight training hours is correct.

[hobo]

congrats JAM thats pretty speedy.

erj

the cfis at DCA get paid 10 an hour for ground briefings, sime time and flight time however their contract is 800 dual given flight time so the 120 hours in eight months is toward that 800 but they get paid more b/c as i was going thru instructors start with an instrument student first and theres as much sim and briefing time as there is flying if not more b/c of the .5 to 1 hour flight briefs on every flight
a typical flight for me has been 1.3 hours long and the cost breakdown is as follows
1.3x99 for c-172
1.3x54 for instructor
.5x54 for flight brief
fuel charge of a couple bucks
total=160.38 for the flight
the instructor then logs the 1.3 toward the 800 contract and gets paid 18 dollars for 1.8 hours worked

[FO_SHIZZLE]

[ QUOTE ]
This is one of the big problems with this type of school, supply and demand. They create the supply of students, however, the demand for Regional pilots is not up to the supply of CFI's that have finished the required time and hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Got to disagree with that statement. I don't think there are many instructors sitting around there waiting on an interview. I turned in my resume, got a call for an interview literally 30 minutes later and am in ground school 33 days later.

[mnixon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is one of the big problems with this type of school, supply and demand. They create the supply of students, however, the demand for Regional pilots is not up to the supply of CFI's that have finished the required time and hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Got to disagree with that statement. I don't think there are many instructors sitting around there waiting on an interview. I turned in my resume, got a call for an interview literally 30 minutes later and am in ground school 33 days later.

[/ QUOTE ]

I miss ya buddy. Ready for a roomate?

[FO_SHIZZLE]

Bring it.

[Wannabe2]

hobo,

i just pm'd you the name of the student that made it through in seven months...