Watch Your Money Fly

[planediveguy]

[ QUOTE ]
"Just this week I was asked to evaluate someone that was auditing our CFI program."

Why would anyone want to do that? I could see if DCA was a university and he needed it as part of his degree program. That's what I had to do at ERAU. After I was found needing some extra time to meet ERAU's standards, I spent a couple of grand (this was in 81) getting up to speed. I had to do it to get the degree. Then I did my CFI-I at Riddle and that was all the flying I had to do there. Whether I had done the Riddle CFI or stuck with the training I had, I'd have been a weak CFI unitl I had some experience, just like any new CFI. I think the FAA considers the CFI a license to learn, just like the other ratings. At the same time, it's a pretty hard checkride anywhere I've heard of.

I'll admit my part 61 CFI training was weak. (My instructor had never taught the CFI) At the same time, I think you learn so much more by getting out and doing the job than by being in an academic enviornment, so all is not lost. You can sit guys down in the classroom until they can perfectly describe the inner workings of an attitude indicator, or spit out a lesson plan for turns about a point, but it doesn't mean squat as to their ability to teach someone the finer points of the flare in a real life airplane.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm not a big fan of all the academics at the expense of real life, in the airplane, experience.

Personally, I doubt I'd pass one of your evaluations either since I cut out as much of the stuff I consider BS as I can with my students. Any school with a "minimum distance from the fuel truck number" is a school with way too much BS. But that's just my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could probably pass the checkride. The person I mentioned simply did not have basic knowledge stuff. Like how an airplane flies ( the FAA version) and what is a constant speed propeller...amongst everything else.

If it appears to you that I am bashing part 61, I'm not. But there are differences in the training. DCA has so much activity that the possibility for a disaster in the ramp is always there. The reason that we must not taxi closer that 6 feet from a fuel truck is to prevent some of the not so blessed with common sense, and soon to be whining here from hitting the truck....

[planediveguy]

[/ QUOTE ]

I told you, Fabio would say that I was a number 2! No surprise there.
Now Fabio, DCA has a part 61 operation, you guys plan on stopping that?
While it is true that not all 141 and 61 schools perform to airline standards, I do know that Falcon is VERY thorough in their procedures, they must be if Continental Connection is recomending them for an interested persons' initial ratings.
One minute you defend Falcon, next minute your bashing it -hmmmmm a conflict, perhaps?
Oh and lets' not forget all the ex DCA students over there (instructors included) that haven't given up thier dreams of making it to the airline.
Did you know that some instructors got hired by some of the same connection carriers that you guys have an arranged interview with? Same interview, same sim ride, same knowledge test,same crm questions, same h.r. questions and lastly- same airlines! So please don't sell Falcon short or even imply that if you go there, its' not the same as going here,to DCA even though you hypocritically denouce part 61, your school has a program that offers the exact same thing you denouce.
Do you really think the local flight examiner would put his career on the line and send a person up and give him his certs and tickets if he was a danger to himself and others?
What about the CFI's at Falcon? Would they do the same thing?
The answer is obvious Fabio.
Fabio, everyone knows that every CFI who comes into DCA looking to pass that instructor ride rarely, if ever does. No surprise there, so you guys help them for, oh is it $8,000.00 plus now?
I don't know about the guy you evaled,but that's what you do and I have no comment on that.
I did not dance around your inquiry,your questions were answered directly -and for you to assume I am inferior to you or your schools standards is insulting.

I think you ought to have a problem with the guy who suggested your a banana eatin Brazilian rather than someone who posted helpful information for DCA customers.
But hey they are your priorities, right?

So UPS went part 61- What about his training, MIster Mister?!


[/ QUOTE ]

No we don't need to close part 61, and I am not denouncing it either. Our flying services guys were trained to the same standards and teach the same way. The only difference is that there is flexibility on scheduling.

As far as what that local flight examiner did back in the midwest, I don't know but we were all wondering...

And yes it is not the same thing, wether you like to hear it or not, going to DCA or going to Falcon is not the same. (again nothing against Falcon) Two different philosofies for the same objective. And the discussion about part 61 x 141 is old and pointless.

Read UPS's post, he commented that his CFI training was weak... But I do agree with him that you get better the more you teach. DCA simply requires that you at least know what you are talking about when you teach.

And since you made a comment about multi-engine aircraft... how about an hour on a PA-44? Maybe shoot some approaches and a hold? How about losing your engine as your cross your FAF? That would be fun! I can teach in the PA-44 but not in the Dutchess as I don't have the 5 hours required in the Dutchess( see the FAR ). If what you are so eager to complain about here is true, put your stick (no pun intended) where you mouth is. Let's go fly!

The banana eating thing.... that is how I refer myself to my friends. That came from the time I was working in the islands and an English friend used to call me that while I called him an "islander". Bastard, I am hard to offend...

[planediveguy]

Flip, as a matter of fact during the time I have been here I have seen 3 people do it UNDER what was quoted... the last one would put all the macho fliers here to shame!

[FatBastard]

Fabio, what is the point in doing a checkride with you, anyway?
What do I have to prove to you- if you can't sign off my ticket as an FAA examiner- what are you really interested in?
Isn't it because management is trying to find out about who is writing this expose' and informing people of thier rights?
Who put you up to it?
You insult my intelligence by even suggesting that I need to take a ride with you to prove my abilities.
As far as all that other stuff you talk about, been there, done that and if I haven't, I will.

Again Fabio, I have more important things to do, like Airline prep,interview prep, etc. rather than prove to a DCA guy I am knowledgeble in my aircraft, Fars' and that I know how to fly it.
I think I will save that proof for the interview, that is where I will put my" proverbial" stick.

Glad to see you have tough skin, but remember, when you get to the airline, there will be people there that will refer to you with a more sinister meaning to your banana reference.


I know Falcon and DCA have two different approaches for the same thing, but perhaps you may wish to refrain from the DCA 141 is better than part 61 at Falcon. Airlines do hire from out of there too, you know.

[Flip]

[ QUOTE ]
As a matter of fact during the time I have been here I have seen 3 people do it UNDER what was quoted... the last one would put all the macho fliers here to shame!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well. That pretty much BACKS UP my point then doesn't it. If only 3 came under budget it means the rest went over budget to some degree. I know that is common at many flight schools, but paying $83,000 just to achieve the CFII (what my old roommate paid) is a bit extreme!!!

[Z28_Pilot]

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

While it is true that not all 141 and 61 schools perform to airline standards, I do know that Falcon is VERY thorough in their procedures, they must be if Continental Connection is recomending them for an interested persons' initial ratings.


[/ QUOTE ]

Continental Connection?......Do you mean Gulfstream???? As in, pay $22,000 and get to ride in a Beech for 250 hrs?.....I'm not really trying to make a joke, just tryin to figure out what company you're talking about because Continental Connection is not really 1 specific entity.....it consists of anyone who feeds Continental other than ExpressJet.....

[Z28_Pilot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ The reason that we must not taxi closer that 6 feet from a fuel truck is to prevent some of the not so blessed with common sense, and soon to be whining here from hitting the truck....

[/ QUOTE ]

It was 20 feet when I was there......but some things might have changed

[Z28_Pilot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(crickets chirping)

Good post Fabio....you're a hard worker and a good problem solver......keep it up!

[/ QUOTE ]

Problem not solved, and crickets stepped on !
So you only do homework at recurrent, what you flyin besides the Z28?Man would I like to see the checklist on that thing! The Z28, that is.)
Do you have more of an existence besides defending a school you no longer attend? Why don't you go back to it then and effect change?

Typical DCA Defender:

"Good one Grog, you teach him good lesson on if we screw you, and you complain, we deny it all and say you have the problem."
Funny...............

[/ QUOTE ]

Number 1.....the Homework comment....let me spell it out for you.........IT.....WAS......A......JOKE!.....if you can grasp that comment...then you might comprehend this.....I study to keep myself current(can't believe I have to explain this!) anyway, I take my job seriously (and yes it is 121) so I review company policies and memory items constantly....I just thought that was part of the responsibility so I take it for granted and do it daily.......If you're gonna accuse someone else of selective posting, then that has now become "the pot callin the kettle black".......I actually tried to give decent advice and set you on track......however, now I realize I wasted my typing on a worthless cause. If you can't grow up and get to the real issue I have NO simpathy for you.....you want to know why us PRO-DCA guys defend the school?....it's because we worked BOTH sides of the fence...(from start to finish...so if you didn't finish, then please hold your comments for now) I had to beg steal and borrow to get the loan for this school and you are DAMN right that there are cheaper places to get the ratings....but I chose this school, and put both feet forward, determined not to let down the people that helped me get the loan!...I had a great time and great instructors...I will admit that at first a few didn't seem that great....but I was able to remember that we're all HUMAN, so somehow we all got along just fine! I paid alot of money to be where I am...but never once felt like someone owed me something....maybe because I had a little history lesson in the back of my mind....don't you dare forget the people that didn't have the opportunity to grab a big fat Key loan and "get er done" in a year...those that went the traditional route and built hours flying banners, hauling checks...etc. I realize I am the underdog coming from a school that can get it done like that...but of course, you wouldn't have any idea that I spent my initial traing in Michigan flying out of a grass strip under the instruction of a local icon (since passed away ) who had over 27,000 hours of military/GA.......why would you investigate when you could just speculate......you touched a wrong nerve when you ventured to say I don't take my job seriously! I will post on here whenever you guys insinuate that "WAH...WAH....WAH....I wrote a check..and I don't have my airline job in a year......WAH WAH WAH".......grow up and see the light.....I am lucky to have this job.......and though things might have changed at DCA, I doubt they changed that much!...back to the original moral of this post.....If you haven't done it start to finish...meaning you haven't had the pleasure to witness both students that were genuinely dedicated to their mission, as well as, those who "wrote the check...so where's my job?"...then don't think that you have the experience to post some of the nonsense that you post.......why not try to be a little more informative like......."hey guys, this is my experience at DCA......I had a few setbacks there....and I wasn't really pleased with the level of instruction.......or the cost....so if you're looking for a flight school, I recommend (insert wherever you went after DCA here)....instead of " I have attended 2 flight schools in my entire life so now I am the world expert on flight schools...don't believe those guys that went to DCA that come on here and are now working for an airline because they don't know that the program doesn't really work!)
Go to whatever school you want...because with all the MESA's, Go-Jets, etc. out there now...it really doesn't matter....you'll have alot more to talk about when you get to the line than just "blah blah blah flight school screwed me"...........BTW - I only offer opinions about DCA, as I haven't attended other flight schools...with that said...I don't try to persuade anyone to go to a particular school, I just try to persuade people to quit whining and persue your career (pitfalls and all).....so focus your energy on this job you want because I will guarantee most of the people you will fly with have worked harder than you have to get here....so SUCK IT UP!

-Z

[FatBastard]

I agree with you there Z, it doesn't matter what school you go to now, as long as you get good training.
I can't comment on the Gulfstream thing,since I don't know much about that program- nor will I comment on a certain school charging in excess of $80,000.00 for Private thru CFI MEI when you can get the same thing done much,much, cheaper. Compare Falcons' prices to DCAs' and look at the savings.
If a person chooses DCA that's them- but DCA should be more mindful of thier obligation to thier customers rather than deny everything someone here says truthfully.

[Doug Taylor]

I think the joke was something about '20 paying passengers on a Beech 1900' or something similar.

[planediveguy]

OOOPS! Damn metric system! I was thinking on meters... you are right... 20 feet....

[planediveguy]

Bastard,


Finding out who you are is the easy part. And no one put me up to it. As a matter of fact I was asked not to post in your thread.

I am no DPE and there is no point on doing a checkride with me, unles you are a student at DCA, which we know it is not your case.

As far as comments from airline partners about the banana eating thing... that only affects people that have a complex of inferiority, or have been raised on a place with a history of prejudice. I don't give a rat's @$$ about any of those comments and I have a ton of jokes about Portuguese (just like the Polish here) which is my background.... Italian, Potuguese, Irish and Dutch... If you have jokes about the other ... I know the Brits make jokes about the Irish... I would gladly learn some!

As far as the airline interview is, don't forget to mention you are trying to sue an airline.... that will go really well. And you won't have to do that much flying on it, maybe a SIM or a PCATD so no "stick" skills really tested... but when the first offecer training comes...good luck to you!

[mnixon]

Greetings from Paris. I sit here on my hotel balcony overlooking th Arc and ponder the fact that, there really are more important things in life that pondering simplistic questions about DCA. Like why women in Europe are not fans of bra's. I love Europe. Camper Top, you might be by yourself in that office, shall I choose not to return. Off to the bar. Bye

[Doug Taylor]

Geez, is there some sort of flight school mafia I've got to start looking out for?

[FatBastard]

You know what they say Doug, no one ever leaves the "Mafia".

[FatBastard]

Oh Fabio, offended are we? You sound upset, and why are you trying to find out who I am?
Oh by the way, who told you DCA was an airline? Ha,ha,ha.

I agree with Mr. Nixon. There are more important things in life than bantering with you.
You are funny though, and seeing you lose your cool is well,

So Fabio, you gonna make me an offer I can't refuse?

[tomahawk1]

[ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind that when a school starts having problems, Key Bank will pull out and not allow any new student loans for flight training. This is probably a result of the former ATA (Airline Training Academy) closing and loss of student's money's. Tab Express was the latest example and probably closed because Key Bank pulled the plug. The Tab students were not hired as promised by management, and therefore could not pay back the loan. If rumors persist and Key Bank gets nervious, watch your money. DCA is no exception reguardless of who they align with. I find it rather interesting that they advertise openings for CFI's when they claim to issue more pilot certificates each year than any other flight school. Does this mean that their CFI program is lacking and can't supply sufficient CFI's for their own school?

[/ QUOTE ]


Dude... Call Key bank and get the story straight from them before you go and shoot your mouth off!!!
Key Bank is no longer funding school that are not elidgable to issue Title 4 funding from the US government. Itis like an issurance policy for Key Bank to issue loans to these types of shools that have government approval. DCA is accredited for this type of funding. Which means they are not losing the Key Loan!!

[planediveguy]

You should get your facts straight. I was upset with you including Vic's name into this mess.

My curiosity on finding out who you are is just to know in which category you really fit in, by consulting your flight records. The flying eval was just an excuse to get more flight time!

You are right to say that DCA is not an airline.... but, well if you are not smart enough to figure it out the implications for yourself... no "Mafia" B.S. Please...think about it for a moment.

[FatBastard]

[ QUOTE ]
You should get your facts straight. I was upset with you including Vic's name into this mess.

My curiosity on finding out who you are is just to know in which category you really fit in, by consulting your flight records. The flying eval was just an excuse to get more flight time!

You are right to say that DCA is not an airline.... but, well if you are not smart enough to figure it out the implications for yourself... no "Mafia" B.S. Please...think about it for a moment.



[/ QUOTE ]
(In my Marlon Brando voice) Fabio, The Father is unhappy. You were the one that implied Falcons' training as compared to DCA was inferior, When I see this, the Father doesn't like this, capish?
You also implied other things about Vics' school also which was not Italian (or Kosher).
Now you,you wanna turn your back on the Father?
I'm very hurt, Don Fabio, very hurt. I helped, you, feed you, bought you to this country, and this is how you repay me by flipping the script? accusing me of smearing Vics' name when you smeared his flight school? The Father complimented Vic- you did something else.

Listen to the Father Don Fabio, I gonna make you an offer you can't refuse............................

[FatBastard]

Everyone, this thread dealt with protecting your money and if you felt "shafted" by DCA, and 3 possible ways to remedy it.
With Deltas' financial situation growing more precarious daily, it would behoove all of you still attending DCA to put your money into a protected account, for your own good.

If you listen to one thing, at least listen to this, or you may be doing this-

[MuscleShirt]

I will be the first to say that people pay A LOT of money to train at DCA. For the same amount I was able to get all my ratings and a 4 year degree. Now, I sat down after graduating and calculated that the cost (approx. 80,000 big ones) included my housing, food, fraternity dues, fun money, and all the tuition/flight fees. The problem is, after graduating there was a tremendous slump in the industry(9-11), and it was difficult finding a job with such low time.

So, maybe someone who took the whole key loan can help me with this.
From what I have seen and heard, don't people use that loan for housing, food, fun-money, and tuition/flight fees?
Don't they get through all of this in 1 year instead of 4(minus the 4 year degree, of course)?
I know it is an insane amount of money, but I'm pretty sure that I have seen a few "new cars" around the parking lot shortly after enrollements.
I am not trying to defend what the school charges, they did not send me here to type this. But, I have seen financial irresponsibility bite a few students pretty damn hard here.

So, if anyone can help educate me on the above, I welcome it...

[MuscleShirt]

luv,

Bashing Fabio?
C'mon MAN!!!!!!!!! What is wrong with you? That's like kicking Santa Claus in the nuts!

Calling him "worthless", WOW!!! I don't know what to say to that...In fact, I should refrain for fear of saying something I may regret!

By the way LUV, "being in the right place at the right time" is how this industry works in case you haven't noticed. Whether it's a family/friend connection, making buddies with a corporate CEO who invites you to come fly right seat in his Falcon-50, or being on the right side of the "ever-churning" cycle of airline employment. It's all about timing...

However, in Fabio's case, he was the perfect man for the job and he sacrificed an entire YEAR here in order to serve the students and instructors he worked with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MAN!!!! I can't believe I'm having to defend FABIOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[luv2av8]

mullet, he didnt sacrifice jack! He is right where he would be if not farther ahead. And without dealing with half the crap the rest of us do. The man is as nice as can be, but is hardly a utility...I see it daily.

Fab I doubt you know who I am, but if so , by all means, say hi when you walk by me.

As for the right place at the right time...That is always how the industry has operated, but wasnt this academy supposed to alleviate that issue? Wasnt this just a way to buy yourself into knowing someone? "Pay 100k and get to know our connections"...and we'll teach you how to fly too...

[MuscleShirt]

[ QUOTE ]
mullet, he didnt sacrifice jack! He is right where he would be if not farther ahead. And without dealing with half the crap the rest of us do. The man is as nice as can be, but is hardly a utility...I see it daily.

Fab I doubt you know who I am, but if so , by all means, say hi when you walk by me.

As for the right place at the right time...That is always how the industry has operated, but wasnt this academy supposed to alleviate that issue? Wasnt this just a way to buy yourself into knowing someone? "Pay 100k and get to know our connections"...and we'll teach you how to fly too...

[/ QUOTE ]

In case you didn't realize it, being a Group Leader means giving up a great deal of flight time, and Fabio acted as a Leader much longer than the norm. Had Fabio not become a Leader he would most likely be in the right seat of an RJ by now.

Hardly a utility?...I'm not going to respond to that! But I'm confused by what you meant when you said he didn't have to put up with as much crap as you. Do you realize how much CRAP a group leader has to deal with? Not to mention the fact that it is a totally thankless job, that point being made by your comments above.

No flight school could ever alleviate the issue of airline hiring cycles, and if you believed that DCA would, than you didn't research the industry well enough.

[planediveguy]

[ QUOTE ]


Fab I doubt you know who I am, but if so , by all means, say hi when you walk by me.



[/ QUOTE ]

Dude you have a pretty bad poker face. People have asked me who you are and I don't think you desreve any retaliation, just because you whine here at this forum. It is easy to be a "Tough Guy" hiding behind your keyboard, I have nothing to hide. And as far as you not thinking that I am productive, oh well, WHAAA, WHAA Fabio doesn't help me with my job! Whaaaaaa, I have to do paperwork! Whaaaaaa I have to deal with students! Whaaaa, I have to attend meetings ( by the way how was yours today?) Whaaaaaaaaa, I have to do groundwork with my students! Whaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

See ya tomorrow!