CL65 Type Ratings?

[DE727UPS]

Does DCA have a program to get a CL65 type rating? If so, how much turbine time would a guy have before he gets that type rating? How much real life experience in jets does he have before he gets that ticket? What total time?

I guess I'm old school but I think jet types are sacred. You earn one after putting in some time in a real jet airplane in the right seat. When you are ready, you get a chance to check out in the left seat and get a jet type rating. I've been a jet F/O for over 10 years (727, 757 767), have over 10,000 hours total time, and yet I still see the jet type rating as a major accomplishment to achieve. To think that you are qualifed to have one at under 1000 total time and no practical experience boggles my mind....

[planediveguy]

Don ,

As far as I know, the FTD used in our campus is dedicated to the bridge program. This program was developed to help instructors with only 1000TT transition from a Piper Seminole to the RJ. The objective was to make it easier for those intructors to go through FO training.

All the guys that I've met that were hired and completed the bridge program told me that it made a difference.

By the way, the bridge program is free for our intructors.

[planediveguy]

I may be wrong, but I don't think that a type rating is offered...

[chrisdahut1]

No, we can't offer a type rating course with only an FTD. And we certainly don't have the real thing!

[NJA_Capt]

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To think that you are qualified to have one at under 1000 total time and no practical experience boggles my mind....

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Ditto
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This program was developed to help instructors with only 1000TT transition from a Piper Seminole to the RJ. The objective was to make it easier for those instructors to go through FO training.

... the bridge program is free for our instructors.

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The only good part of that quote is something "free" for instructors.

There is a lot of experience to be gained between the Seminole and the RJ. To "leave out" everything in between and jump into an RJ borderlines on irresponsible.

The REAL bridge program has been in place for many decades. It's called 1000 ours dual given, banner towing, crop dusting, SEL air freight, then light twin air freight (hand flown), charter (light twins, light-med turbine twins), and corporate. Then maybe a few hundred hours in a Citation or Lear.

Every time I hear a CFI say he is burned out with 200 dual given, it makes me want to choke him. Don't they think they'll be just as burned out after doing 200 hours between CLE and IAD? Gee, the autopilot does the flying, ops does the planning, and ATC tells you "where to go."

[H46Bubba]

DCA DOES NOT offer a CL65 type rating. The bridge trainer is merley a tool to get instructors familiarized with the glass cockpit and how it operates. We have sim instructors that are prior line pilots. When Comair got rid of their EMB-120's Comair instructors started getting hired into the CRJ. They were failing their interview and class sims, due to the huge leap from dial and gauges to EFIS. So Comair and the school put their heads together and came up with the bridge program. FRASCA specially built a sim the replcates the CRJ cockpit. I've flown it several time and even though it is motionless it does give you the feeling that you're actually physically moving. Now the are letting the multi students utilize the sim for their sim lessons.

[NJA_Capt]

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DCA DOES NOT offer a CL65 type rating.

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DE727UPS and I weren’t referring to DCA specifically. He just asked if DCA had one. It carried over from SJFLYER’s post under XJT here I come!
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[i]My times were 700TT and 130 multi. I have a CFI, CFI-I, MEI and a CL- 65 type rating.

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[mtsu_av8er]

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The REAL bridge program has been in place for many decades. It's called 1000 ours dual given, banner towing, crop dusting, SEL air freight, then light twin air freight (hand flown), charter (light twins, light-med turbine twins), and corporate. Then maybe a few hundred hours in a Citation or Lear.


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Come on, those were the old days....can't I buy my way in??[/sarcasm]

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Every time I hear a CFI say he is burned out with 200 dual given, it makes me want to choke him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Believe me, I'm just a "newbie" in this aviation thing, and I know that after 6 years, I can't possibly know if I like it or not - but I do indeed love being a CFI! I think it's crazy that folks are in such a hurry to move on! I'm really 'living the dream' - hell, I've been waiting for this for years!!!

[yankee_one]

So Lloyd, got any good "my student nearly killed me today" stories???

[Doug Taylor]

Shoot, I've had captains try to kill me!

[yankee_one]

I bet ! BTW thanks for the LAS Hotel info, but they were all booked up. Ended up in a cottage on Lake Mead!!

[planediveguy]

There is a lot of experience to be gained between the Seminole and the RJ. To "leave out" everything in between and jump into an RJ borderlines on irresponsible.

__________________________________________________ _____



I see where you are coming from and have to agree with you... but at the same time the facts are that COMAIR and others have hired instructors from "big" schools as FO's for a good time now. and since they are still doing it, isn't it fare to say that it has been working for them?

__________________________________________________ _____


Gee, the autopilot does the flying, ops does the planning, and ATC tells you "where to go."


Maybe that is the reason for it...

[chrisdahut1]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a lot of experience to be gained between the Seminole and the RJ. To "leave out" everything in between and jump into an RJ borderlines on irresponsible.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'll be sure to pass on that information to my new employer when I start class next month. I'm sure they'll be surprised to know they've been doing it wrong all these years.

[mtsu_av8er]

Hey, Chris, I'm not "hating" on the academies or any of the grads. I like seeing people move up...opens up space for new folks!

That being said, the airlines have never been known for being "responsible"...lol.

[NJA_Capt]

So what you believe is this.
A person should be able to play Major League Baseball without playing in the minors for experience.
A person should be able to be a doctor without residency.
A Federal Judge should be elected without being a lawyer.

When someone in your family needs heart surgery, are you going to pick a doctor that got his experience in 6 months at a "doctor mill?" Or would you prefer one with years of "practicing" experience?

So, why has it become acceptable to fly an airliner without regard to the same level of standards? Commuters have gone from 14 seats to 70 seats. Routes have gone from 50nm to 2000nm. Cockpits have gone from analog to EFIS. Yet, the experience required has gone from 3000tt to 600tt, and the pay still reflects the 50nm days.

Large schools perpetuate themselves by selling a product to you. We have heard this BS about a pilot shortage for 20 years, when there are still 10,000 furloughed pilots with up to 15 years of 121 experience.

[chrisdahut1]

So 1200 hours total time is NO EXPERIENCE to you NJA Captain? I may not have the experience that YOU would like to see, but to say I have not paid any dues at all is insulting.

And how much time should I have before I get into an RJ? Let's hear what arbitrary number you come up with.

[Doug Taylor]

Ahh geez, I wake up and my forum becomes airliners.net.

Not taking any sides here because it's a good discussion, but in a macro sense, 1200 hours isn't really all that much experience. When you're surrounded by CFI's and flight students, yes, but in professional aviation, it certainly falls in the n00b range.

[chrisdahut1]

I didn't say it was Doug, and I was careful with how I worded my response. I was trying to point out that his comparisons were invalid as they suggested I walked into a jet job with an ink still wet on the ticket commercial.

And my apologies for the heated debate. There are some issues that touch a nerve with me. I'll just agree to disagree on this one.

[NJA_Capt]

Disclaimer added: This subject is NOT directed at any individual, group of individuals, school, or gang members. It is a broad generalization of discussions heard throughout the industry in recent years.


[ QUOTE ]
So 1200 hours total time is NO EXPERIENCE to you ...to say I have not paid any dues at all is insulting.


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First, I never set any limits, nor did I attack your credentials and/or dues. But there is definitely a difference in paying your dues and paying to get past your dues. And to do that insults everyone who has gone before you, and those that built this profession. Do I blame anyone with 700tt from taking a job??.....heck no, would have jumped on it too. But, I would not have been so naive to say that I had the same experience as a 2-3000 hour guy. Nor would I start screaming "how soon til I upgrade?"

Before you ask what dues, here are a few of mine:
6 years of line/ramp service during the hunt for ratings and CFIing.
Fueling aircraft from C152 to B757 (Trained by each contracted airline....incl, Delta, Eastern, Continental, Piedmont)
Airstarts, loading DC-8, 707, and B727 freighters
washing corp aircraft
Dumping the "blue room" in commercial airliners.
Ramp rat at a major hub.
1200 dual given
2 years freight dog (alone + no autopilot, and gasp.....no GPS)
2+ yrs FAR 135 pax charter flying
EiEiO

So, without being toooooo animated. I too am insulted when someone with -1000 tt jumps in an RJ and tells us their dues are paid in full. Trust me, when I look back from 6000+ hours, I didn't know squat at 1200. Kinda like thinking your parents are idiots........until 10 years later and you wake up and say, "......they were right."


Sorry Doug,
I was afraid you were going to think that.....figured we are pretty close to getting kicked in the lav.

[Doug Taylor]

It's a good discussion.

And the standard caveat: This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but I'm just rambling...

Just jealous because I never had any of this type of insight when I was a young neophyte. But looking back, I thought I was the 'bomb diggity' when I crossed the 500 hour mark because my peer group had a lot less.

Then I hit 1000 and thought I had arrived because the other CFI's were around the 500 hour mark.

Then I got hired at a regional with about 1800 or so and thought I was the 'new hotness' because I could apply for my ATP.

I got hired at my current employer with about 3300 and thought I was king of the hill until I found myself surrounded by pilots who had 757/767 type ratings, thousands of hours of KC-135 time, combat experience, etc. But I spent most of my time trying to sponge knowledge off of the highly experienced pilots that I associated with rather than self-justify my own experience level.

Once again, I'm just taking a shot in the dark and these comments aren't particularly targeted at anyone.

[H46Bubba]

To a pilot, getting your ratings and hours are like reaching a certain age in life(could possibly go hand in hand for some of the younger members). Your solo is like taking your parents car out around the block by yourself while only holding a learners permit. You get your private, now your able to take the family car out on Friday night. Everyone pays their dues, except the PFT'ers. The industry is not as it was 10-15 years ago. It has it's ups and downs. We all want the industry to stabilize after the 9/11 downturn. Pilot's are getting hired with less time and for wages lower than their predescesors. All these low time pilots are not just from the academies, their comming from the FBO's that you all trained at also. The airlines need pilots and subject them to their standards, so they must feel that these pilots are qualified to sit in the right seat. No matter how long you've flying our how many hour have been logged, a pilot is always a student, always learning something newand we also learn from each other. My grandfather has been flying since the 50's and he always learns something new, wheather it's a new procedure or new technology. We are pilots. We have invested time, effort and money to do what we love to do. You start of as an FO for a reason; so as to gain experience and knowledge so that once you move to the captains seat you, you can pass that knowledge on to new FO's. All the while as captain you continue to learn and grow.

[DE727UPS]

Very well said, sir.

That being the case. Why does a 700/100 pilot feel the need for a jet type rating? It's really putting the cart before the horse. I think it's a product of today's "big academy" flight school marketing. Some school figured they could make money selling type ratings and next thing you know....it's part of some career track program.

I'm really old and somewhat influnced by the past...that's part of my problem. When I was working my way up they didn't have Level D sims where you couldn't get a type without flying the real thing. You did most of your training is a sim and then "rented" the real thing for the checkride. This made it necessary that you have a pretty good level of experience before you would undertake one of these type rating programs. With the advent of Level D sims, you can do it all without stepping foot in a real plane. I think that leads to it making sense for an academy to offer this kind of training to low time guys. They don't have to prove themselves in the "real thing".

Not that it's any different at the big airlines. I could upgrade to 757/767 Capt without flying the real thing on a checkride. But, I just find it hard to believe that a school that can train a 700/100 guy to pass a jet type is doing it to the same level as major airline training.

[H46Bubba]

Thanks for the kind words. I meant all of it. I see where you're coming from though. I can tell you who exactly offers this program. It is the brain child of RAA. It is part of their bridge program with Air Wisconsin and the other partners they have, but it's mainly for Air Wisky. But I think it's a waste of money, that the airline could pick up tab for. Suppossedly if you are hired by Air Whisky that with the type rating you can skip a lot of stuff during new hire training. As to what, SJflyer could better answer that than I. I personnaly know him and he's a really great guy. He didn't get the type rating to be a captain or assume that he could go straight to the left seat. I can't say the same for everyone else that goes throught the program. He just want to prove that even though he has low time, he is competant enough to fly a jet, work in a CRM environment and handle the training.

[foztofly]

UPS, I agree with what you are saying about a low-time pilot claiming to be properly trained just because they have a type rating. We see the same thing at the instructor level. Soon as SOME people get their CFI ticket, they think they know everything about flying and teaching. This couldn't be further from the truth. I personally tell my students on day one that as much as I may help them learn, I am learning from them too. Just because I have a white shirt on and they a blue one doesn't mean I am done being a student.

[ QUOTE ]
Very well said, sir.

That being the case. Why does a 700/100 pilot feel the need for a jet type rating? It's really putting the cart before the horse. I think it's a product of today's "big academy" flight school marketing. Some school figured they could make money selling type ratings and next thing you know....it's part of some career track program.

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I don't know that this is very much a part of the academy's marketing. Personally, I think these flight schools that do offer the type ratings as a PFT type deal (which DCA isn't one) have done so reactively, not proactively. As long as there are airlines out there that will hire these pilots, there are going to continue to be places that offer it. I see that as a problem at the airline level, the customer if you will, and not the schools or provider. Granted, if schools would stop providing it, than airlines would have no choice but to wait until the pilot has "earned" the rating, but in reality it is still a business and money is being made, so it will continue. Even at the 1000 hour mark, I understand that you think pilots are not ready to be flying a jet and to be eligible for FO training. As Bubba stated though, it is not just the academy's sending their instructors to the airlines though. My first instructor I had at a FBO in Jan, 2002 has since been hired by Colgan as a FO and has already upgraded to Capt. As far as training a 700/100 guy to pass a jet type rating vs. what the airline training would provide, I once again would tend to agree with you. I don't think it would be to the same level, but I don't have experience in either (my disclaimer ) route. Makes me think of those business grads trained by Harvard or Kellogg or Wharton... have the schools really provided the training to them that they need to succeed in the well-respected positions they are hired into? Or have the schools just provided a foundation of info and a structure for them to learn how to study for when they do get into the training program at the major corporations? I personally think it is the later of the two and feel that the best training provided is that hands on training. I don't think it is any schools fault though for providing these students, it is the company doing the hiring for taking them.

[DE727UPS]

"the academy's marketing"

Just to be clear. I wasn't refering to DCA ref the type rating marketing comment as that isn't something DCA does....I should have been more specific. CH46 just pointed out one school that is doing this and seems to know more about it than I do.

"Even at the 1000 hour mark, I understand that you think pilots are not ready to be flying a jet and to be eligible for FO training"

I hope that's not the impression I'm making...

At the 1000/100 mark, I think a guy has the background to be a useful jet F/O. Not at 300 hours. Not at 500 hours. Also, if a guy wants to buy type specific training in a jet to help him get hired at the regionals...more power to him. I still don't want to fly with an F/O who's knowledge base is less than 1000/100, I don't care if they have a type rating or whatever. If they did have a type rating, it would have been all in a sim with no practicle experience.

Secondly, let's say a guy somehow has 900 total with 400 jet SIC and came from TAB express. I wouldn't want to fly with him, either, cause he bought his job and participated in the lowering of the bar for regional pilots.

DCA guys, before they get "the interview", would have over 1000/100. So I have no problem with DCA's "pipeline" to the regionals.

My complaint is with all the big academies marketing programs that make it look soooo easy to become an airline pilot, if you just do their program. They come up with schemes to make it look like you're a shoe in if you do it their way. When, in reality, what value is a guaranteed interview when guys are getting hired at 1000/100 anyway? At least in today's market.