What is the Enrollment vs actually Hired ratio?

[montanapilot]

Just wanted to get an answer on that one since it was dodged in the last thread.

[yankee_one]

try searcing the threads since this has been gone over several times before... oh yeah thats right.. you're just trying to Flamebait as per normal.

[flyonthewall]

I bet its something like five percent after you take out those who decided that the school sucks and went elsewhere and those that let the school bankrupt them.

[montanapilot]

so rather than answer the question you decide to go after it cause its "flamebait".

Why dont you give us a straight answer and not dodge the question?

[yankee_one]

Like I said, its been gone over several times and as I recall fairly detailed. Do a Search...I'm sure as you have so much time in your life to spend posting, you can spare a few precious seconds to use the search button. As I posted in the General forum here's some simple instructions for you:

http://www.trials-shack.co.uk/posting.html

[flyonthewall]

Why hack on MontanaPilot for spending his time here on this forum when you yourself seem to creep around here all day as well? He is asking a good question....one that nobody seems to want to answer.

[montanapilot]

well if the answer is such clearly defined common knowledge then you should be able to just spout it off the top of your head right?


just answer the question.

[mtsu_av8er]

I've never seen anyone "in the know" actually answer that question....

[Wannabe2]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet its something like five percent after you take out those who decided that the school sucks and went elsewhere and those that let the school bankrupt them.

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is about 32% I figure the average enrollment is around 25 new students per month. Some months way less, some months like this September were over 70 I think, but say an average of 25. I would also say, on average ten guys go interview each month and most all of them get hired. Conservatively I would say 8 of 10 get on with their first choice of interview. That's 96 per year. I have heard we are over that number by quite a bit for this year, but I am trying to be sonservative here. 96/300 is how i came up with 32%.

There are plenty of reasons people drop out and yes, among them there are the "people that think the school sucks" and "those that let the school bankrupt them". These people can very often, not always, but very often be lumped into the groups of students that: don't study enough, expect this to be easy, have bad attitudes, listen to others bitch so much that they develop bad attitudes, can't accept responsibility for thier own actions, would rather chase tail than study, etc.

There are also other students and instructors that are quite successful here that leave for other reasons like to be closer to family (one good friend of mine that is a current instructor and one of my instrument students just did this very thing). Some people do run out of money. Some decide they don't like flying after all. Some find other schools more attractive for whatever reason and transfer. Some don't like the weather.

I guess my point is that many, of the students that do leave do so not because the school is bad but because of personal issues not related to how good/not good the school might be.

[zsolez]

[ QUOTE ]
Just wanted to get an answer on that one since it was dodged in the last thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what is the tree/moron ratio in Mo?

I mean for real dude... you are asking something that only a very few would know at DCA and those have contractual obligations to keep such numbers for themselves.

It is easy to beat the drum that "it was dodged" if you already know you will never get exact numbers from people in the know. Plus we all know if you would get numbers than of course you would say that you don't believe them or whatever depending you liked what you read or not... go give it a break already and count the trees or something. There is really nothing to do in Montana? Are you going to get a life?

What is the rate for 61 schools? Can you tell? I can't.

The one thing you could do though is to post that video in your avatar if you have a link to that. Or at least a link to the picture.

[mtsu_av8er]

Hey, Z, stop acting like my 8 year old!! If you don't know the answer, just say that you don't know the answer!

Nobody mentioned idiots until you did...so, play nice.

The Kool-Ade runs DEEP at DCA!!!

[montanapilot]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just wanted to get an answer on that one since it was dodged in the last thread.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And what is the tree/moron ratio in Mo?

I mean for real dude... you are asking something that only a very few would know at DCA and those have contractual obligations to keep such numbers for themselves.

It is easy to beat the drum that "it was dodged" if you already know you will never get exact numbers from people in the know. Plus we all know if you would get numbers than of course you would say that you don't believe them or whatever depending you liked what you read or not... go give it a break already and count the trees or something. There is really nothing to do in Montana? Are you going to get a life?

What is the rate for 61 schools? Can you tell? I can't.

The one thing you could do though is to post that video in your avatar if you have a link to that. Or at least a link to the picture.


[/ QUOTE ]


wow that was really mature dude. So far people have managed to avoid personal attacks in this forum but you bring the forum to a new low. Thank you. (pan am anyone?)


[/crickets chirping in the background].......still waitin for an answer fellas. from marketing/admissions/spin machine



P.S. i dont have a link to the avatar unfortunatly. I found the pic somewhere out on the internet but i forgot where i downloaded it from.
If anybody knows where to find it i would like to know too.

[Wannabe2]

montanna,

you are still waiting.... for numbers that i just posted above. or do you not think they are accurate? if not, do you think they are better or worse than my estimates and how would you come up with your numbers?

[DE727UPS]

"you are asking something that only a very few would know at DCA and those have contractual obligations to keep such numbers for themselves"

It seems to me Wannabe answered the question in the thread above yours. Why is this such a secret?

[dpewing]

If you have to be an instructor to get the interview, couldn't you look at the student to instructor ratio and come up with a ball park figure? If it's 4 to 1, then that means that 25% of students enrolled are quarenteed an interview, so the hiring ratio couldn't be much above 25%. When I read the marketing statements, I realized that you have to be in the top 25% of your class with a good attitude to become an instructor, and then get the interview. Who would expect to "just get by" and still be given an interview. I expect to earn the interview, and DCA is using its contacts to help me make that happen.

[montanapilot]

[ QUOTE ]
and DCA is using its contacts to help me make that happen.

[/ QUOTE ]


you just keep on drinkin it down dont ya?

[Wannabe2]

my question still stands montanna, do you dissagree with my numbers or is all you have left unspecific comments about how gullible all of us here at DCA are?

cool graphic of the kool-aid guy by the way, i would love to have that on a t-shirt!

[foztofly]

My guess is that the figure you are asking for would be somewhere in the ballpark of what dpe states. IMO, 32% might be a little high, but prob not too far off.

However, my opinion is that the enrollment/hired ratio would be a skewed number anyway. Here is my reasoning:
There are many students who haven't made it through the interview process for many varied reasons (as stated many times in previous posts), some of which being money, thinking it "sucks", realizing flying is not for them, not wanting to instruct, having a rich daddy with a corporate jet, having other contacts or don't have aspirations to go to the airlines and want to fly corporate. I can't imagine DCA would keep cold hard numbers on students that leave the school AND the reason why. I know people that have left for all the reasons I stated, so I would consider it a wash. I would think that if you want to put a number on the success of DCA's program, which in my opinion is what you are looking for, that you should look at the ratio of those that interview for an instructor position to those that get hired at the airline. My guess, from my experience here, is that the number in this scenario would be over 60%. More than 75% of those that interview for an instructor position are hired (again from my observations)... my guess would be closer to 80%. Of these that are hired, some instructors can't live on the money and leave for another job. Some get fired for doing something as stupid as allowing their student to fly through a prohibited area on a solo x-c AFTER looking over their checkpoints and Sectional routes highlighted or they go have a beer during lunch break and go back to school for Standz class, and some get a job at the regionals before completing the 800 hrs as stated per our contract and leave. So, because of these instructors leaving for whatever reason, it would lower the ratio. Ultimately, I would guess that the ratio of those that interview for an instructor postion to those that get hired at the regionals would be somewhere around 65 - 75%. IMO, this would be the number that would tell the truth of the success of the program. The 98% that the school states is only accurate for those that get hired, don't quit or get fired and then get hired by the airline, i.e. complete the program. Hope this helps.

[zsolez]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just wanted to get an answer on that one since it was dodged in the last thread.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And what is the tree/moron ratio in Mo?

I mean for real dude... you are asking something that only a very few would know at DCA and those have contractual obligations to keep such numbers for themselves.

It is easy to beat the drum that "it was dodged" if you already know you will never get exact numbers from people in the know. Plus we all know if you would get numbers than of course you would say that you don't believe them or whatever depending you liked what you read or not... go give it a break already and count the trees or something. There is really nothing to do in Montana? Are you going to get a life?

What is the rate for 61 schools? Can you tell? I can't.

The one thing you could do though is to post that video in your avatar if you have a link to that. Or at least a link to the picture.


[/ QUOTE ]


wow that was really mature dude. So far people have managed to avoid personal attacks in this forum but you bring the forum to a new low. Thank you. (pan am anyone?)


[/crickets chirping in the background].......still waitin for an answer fellas. from marketing/admissions/spin machine



P.S. i dont have a link to the avatar unfortunatly. I found the pic somewhere out on the internet but i forgot where i downloaded it from.
If anybody knows where to find it i would like to know too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey don't take it too personal, but for too many of us it seems you have nothing else to do but to come here and light the fire. I don't know what is your motivation, but you don't see me doing the same thing in the FBO forum. Is there such? I don't go out of my way trying to bash schools that I don't like. I am not much of a fan a p61 but I respect everyone working/training in p61 or anywhere else and I am sure there are plenty awesome p61 schools. Still, IMHO the typical p61 FBO can’t compete with DCA but just as the example de727 posted shows that yes it is possible to make it from a good p61 place for cheap. Of course we don’t hear about the p61 horror stories, they don’t come in chunks. There are so many p61 operators that only a few manage to make a name for themselves. I am sure it is hard to find a good one right from the beginning, who will also make you study to the level that will make you competitive on an interview. Your typical customer in p61 is not the airline wannabe. It is the 30-40 years old guy who wants to do the weekend $100 burger run. You can’t force him learn the METAR if it comes in plain language on DUATS. Hence you won’t practice it either as a CFI.

I have expressed this many times here, I don't mind criticism but make it truthful and accurate, and speak from a personal background if you can or if not than indicate so and express your "opinion". But you are so frequent here that you became a topic of one of my conversation with one of my ex CFI a few weeks ago while they were waiting for their CHQ interview (both hired btw… I guess it does work.)

You probably post more in this forum than anyone else actually training at DCA. You have a personal war going on against DCA with de727. Fine… whatever... at least we entertain each other. Just don't think that all those people in the program who post against your “opinion” are all liars, undercover DCA agents, brainwashed students, and marketing guys after a bonus. Not true and I am glad that I see more positive posts here. I wish everyone from DCA would come here and pitch in, you would be surprised about the bitching but the bottom line would still be: “it was worth”. That is what I keep hearing anyways.

BTW I have nothing against Mo, I have heard it is one of the most beautiful place in the States. Can’t wait to see it for myself.

The avatar is a picture that I have seen some 15-20ish years ago in a newspaper. I can't recall the exact footage but at that time it made me laugh, especially the guy being busy getting away. I hope all came out of that ok. It brought back memories. That is why I have asked. Thanks anyways.

[DE727UPS]

"who will also make you study to the level that will make you competitive on an interview."

Don't you think it should be up to the individual to be professional and set a high standard for himself? Not up to the reg you are training under. What you are saying is DCA forces you to a higher standard. That's fine but I submit that a 61 guy can meet the same standard through hard work and professionalism. Not all 61 guys are up to the task. Nor do all DCA students "graduate" from the program.

"You have a personal war going on against DCA with de727."

Sorry you see it as a personal war. My fight is mainly with DCA's advertising and marketing. When I see comments by DCA guys that don't jive with my understanding of the industry....I'm gonna speak up. When Planediveguy says 135 multi time isn't what the industry is looking for but a DCA background is....I laugh, then I cry, then I post my opinion about that. Am I a basher? Call it what you want but I'm telling you how I see things from my perspective as a major airline pilot since 1990 and CFI since 1981.

One other thing....MO is Missouri, not Montana. Montana is MT.

[Doug Taylor]

I dunno, call me crazy, but if I were you guys, I'd spend a lot more time working with De727UPS than striving to discount any input he has.

He's been thru ERAU, got a taste of reality and worked his way up to one of the top 757/767 jobs in the industry, with captain seniority.

So before you say, "Oh, that Don's full of ####e", just stop for a moment and realize that he's where you, and I for the most part, aspire to be.

[ananoman]

[ QUOTE ]
"who will also make you study to the level that will make you competitive on an interview."

Don't you think it should be up to the individual to be professional and set a high standard for himself? Not up to the reg you are training under. What you are saying is DCA forces you to a higher standard. That's fine but I submit that a 61 guy can meet the same standard through hard work and professionalism. Not all 61 guys are up to the task. Nor do all DCA students "graduate" from the program.

[/ QUOTE ]
It is obviously up to the individual to study for an interview and be prepared. No school can make you do this.

Where the school is most important is during the initial training. If someone is going to get their private and they have a turd for a CFI, then they will probably learn alot of bad habits. They will probably also not know everything they should, because their CFI did not teach them what they should know, or even tell them what to study. I think that the private and instrument are probably the two most important ratings for this reason. If you have a good CFI for these, then you have a good foundation to build on and the quality of instruction becomes much less important.

The advantage the larger schools like DCA have is that they have a very standardized syllabus and strong management oversite. If someone is not doing their job as a CFI, then the situation will be corrected.

You can obviously get the same quality Part 61, but for someone who has little knowledge of aviation this can be difficult. Many get poor instruction and simply do not know any better.

I am not saying that the student should not have to do any research on the schools they select, it is just hard to make an 'informed decision' when you do not have much knowledge of the subject.

This is my only problem with DCA. I am sure they provide a good education and they do send their instructors to the Airlines. The problem is the Ads. They prey on the uninformed and are misleading at best. There are many other good schools that do not use misleading advertisements to drum up students. For those of us that have 'been there and done that' it makes it hard to take DCA seriously.

I would also think that the ads would hurt DCA in the long run as well. If you enter the school as a relatively uninformed student, you will learn more about the industry as your knowledge of flying grows. During this process you may loose alot of respect for the school if what the marketing people told you was somewhat less than truthful. If you then start to have any sort of problem at the school, management will have already lost alot of credibility as you will already feel deceived. This could easily result in the loss of students and bad feelings over minor problems.

From a personal standpoint, I was unimpressed with DCA marketing when I visited the school (back when it was still Comair). It may have changed, but most of the marketing people were not pilots and seemed to have little knowledge of the industry. I had already done some research and I knew that some of what they were telling me was BS. Even my wife who did not have any aviation background was somewhat shocked by their unprofessionalism and the 'hard sell'.

[DE727UPS]

HA...I have been thinking of doing a post where I re-write the DCA ads in a way I find more socially acceptable.

For example: We have the best maintenance facility anywhere.

You could say....Our maintenance is top notch. We strive to exceed FAA standards. Our maintenance dept has won the Diamond award presented by the FAA for exceptional maintenance.

To just say "we have the best maintenance facility anywhere" is rather arrogant.

This theme of arrogance and half truth's form the basis of DCA's ads.

If you think we are critical at Jetcareers, go over to flightinfo and see what those guys think of DCA

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthr...;highlight=DCA

[DE727UPS]

"For those of us that have 'been there and done that' it makes it hard to take DCA seriously."

Amen brother....

[Wannabe2]

"To just say "we have the best maintenance facility anywhere" is rather arrogant."

So with your reasoning, you would not use a product that advertised itself at "the best" because it might arrogant? To be fair, you should probably find some message boards for some of the following products and wage a personal war against them also.

Browsing through the ads in AOPA Pilot, April 2004, you would certainly want to avoid products/services like:

Skywatch/L3 Communications - "... settle for nothing but the best."

Mooney - "The Best Performing Piston Singles..."

Superior Air Parts, Inc. - "... the best certified pre-owned engine...."

ASA - "You Deserve the Best - Training Starts Here!"

icom - "simply the best"

Pocket Plates - "Treat yourself to the best."

Aircraft Spruce West/East - "Best Selection!"

David Clark - "Aviation's Number One Noise Attenuating Headset"

The nerve it must take for companies such as these to make such outrageous claims!

I recall from my advertising/business law class way back when, it is not illegal to claim to be the best as long as the company making that claim honestly bieleves it to be the truth.