Reality Check

[FlyinT]

Ok - I have been running my eyes ragged trying to come up with some answers and can not seem to find that I think are more important than some of the fickle comments that I have read.

As of now I have evaluated PanAm, ATP, Regional Airline Academy and Comair (DCA) right now I feel like DCA is the best choice for the following reason. If you can make it all the way through you have the best chance of flying professionally for an airline than any other school. That seems to be consistent in all the posts. Pan Am just seems to have too many internal issues and has had fatalities recently.

Here are the point that I need a reality check on and I’m sure many will find the responses useful, but first some facts

Fact:
1 - My goal is to fly for an airline – plane and simple always have and probably always will.
2 - DCA seems to be a pretty reputable school with the only recurring complaint being cost – not a problem money can be gotten.
3 - My expectations are to get outstanding training that will prepare me for a new career and nothing else. I don’t expect to get a job, I can do that on my own.
4 - I’m a quick study and the only things I have struggled with in my P61 training so far is memorizing airspace and weather minimums for each, and that is pretty much mastered now. According to my instructor I have progressed faster than most of his students. I have no problem with steep turns, landings, radio communication, navigation, slow flight, stalls etc. I would assume that is a good sign unless he is pulling my leg, which I’m sure he is not. I plan on attending an academy with my private.
5 - Will be entering that academy with 0 debt

Reality Check:
1 - The success rate of student to airline seems to calculate out to about 5-6 percent of total initial enrollment. I want to know why. It seems to me like there are many factors cost being number one. The others that seem to be factors are age of students, younger having most trouble. But even those factors can not attribute to a 94% failure rate.
2 - If the program is designed well and can prepare you for airline standards then I would think it is worth it, am I incorrect in this assessment. I don’t just want ratings I want to fly for a living most of the other schools only seem to provide ratings then your on your own.
3 - What do the airlines really want? Do they really value and academy trained pilot over and FBO trained pilot. (This seems to be a trick questions based on similar Q&A’s I’ve Read)
4 - Does anyone know what the usual cost per hour boils down to?
5 - I have heard a lot about an aging fleet, though not that big of an issue if maintenance is great, with the kind of money they are making why have they not invested in newer aircraft?
6 - What type of person succeeds at this school or any of the others for that matter?


Anyway can anyone provide any clarification to these questions?

[JEP]

[ QUOTE ]
If you can make it all the way through you have the best chance of flying professionally for an airline than any other school.

[/ QUOTE ]

DCA may want you to believe that, but I am not so sure if that is the case. You may get an "guaranteed" interview but we all know that does not mean a "guaranteed" job.

[ QUOTE ]
3 - What do the airlines really want? Do they really value and academy trained pilot over and FBO trained pilot. (This seems to be a trick questions based on similar Q&A’s I’ve Read)


[/ QUOTE ]

You seemed to have done some research but from what I have read here and other places, the airlines are not too particular on where you were trained. If you meet their minimums you may get an interview. Part 141,61 does not matter. If you have your ratings and meet their req's you could be good to go.

Good Luck whichever route you choose.

[JAM]

Three things will make you successful at DCA or any institution: 1) Aptitude, 2) Resources, and 3) Motivation.

Given these things, all other variables fade away. Consistently, people who have these traits, along with a positive attitude and a sense of humor, succeed in becoming airline pilots almost every time. In fact, I can think of only a handfull of people I know in the past 3 years that had a chance at an interview and are not airline pilots right now. Either they didn't make it through training or they screwed up personally and blew it (I think most of you can figure out what I mean).

It is obvious you feel you have these traits. Therefore, I believe you can be successful whatever path you choose. Good luck!

[FlyingDawg]

(quote)
As of now I have evaluated PanAm, ATP, Regional Airline Academy and Comair (DCA) right now I feel like DCA is the best choice for the following reason. If you can make it all the way through you have the best chance of flying professionally for an airline than any other school. That seems to be consistent in all the posts.
__________________________________________________ _

I dont think you should make a decision until you have at least valuated FlightSafety Academy. FSA stands above the rest. You will find other posts from people that had decided they were going to DCA or PanAm and after visiting and researching FlightSafety, they changed their minds. There are many people at FlightSafety now that started at DCA and transferred to FlightSafety part way through their training. You should give them a look!

[DE727UPS]

"3 - What do the airlines really want? Do they really value and academy trained pilot over and FBO trained pilot. (This seems to be a trick questions based on similar Q&A’s I’ve Read)"

I don't know what you mean by trick question but I think this has been answered over and over at this site. Nobody cares where you train. It's about hours, ratings, and experience....as it should be. Now, there are some schemes out there, like DCA, where you can work you're way into a jet seat quicker than "the traditional way". Sometimes they work...sometimes they don't. They are always expensive....

You say you want to be an airline pilot? So did I.....25 years ago. I did all my training part 61, did two years at the CC and two years at ERAU, got my CFI, instructed for a short time and got a 135 single engine job and worked my way up from there. 10 years from ERAU to a major. You say it can't be done that way anymore...that was 25 years ago?

My friend Ryan got a 135 single engine job a couple of months ago after reaching the 500 to 700 hour mark instructing. Before that he got a non-aviation degree and trained part 61. He'll get a light twin job and look good for the regionals in a year or two.

I only mention all this because I run across folks that say the only way to make it as an airline pilot is to train at XYZ academy. (I guess that's because of all those misleading ads in Flying and Flight Training). Anyhow...just want people to know the "old fashed way" is alive and well...we just don't have silly magazine ads.

[FlyinT]

Thanks for all the great information so far - I have looked into Flight Safety (As well as the many others) as recommended and spoke with a gentlemen on the phone and I must say I was very impressed. Not only by his professionalism but candid and non-sales like approach to giving answers. All the other schools seem to give a typical song and dance about how they are the best and Flight Safety did not do that. I even caught one sales/marketing person in a lie, it’s always interesting to hear someone stutter and cover when they have obviously been caught.

I will be heading to Florida mid summer and check out DCA, Pan AM and Flight Safety. But right now FS is in the lead just by virtue of professionalism and reputation in the aviation industry through its affiliation with Flight Safety International. Not forgetting to mention that many other schools have stated that FS is a good school. That says something. Let's see how it goes when I get a first hand glimps things could change.

[DE727UPS]

Have fun at FS. Either you got rich parents or you'll be in debt up to your eyeballs. Everyone's doing it, though, so join the crowd.

I think FS is a fine school but not the route I would take if I had to do it all over.

"I don’t just want ratings I want to fly for a living most of the other schools only seem to provide ratings then your on your own."

It sounds like you want FS to make you into an airline pilot. FS is just a very expensive, professional, airline style...flight school. But in the end you'll get the same FAA ratings as Joe Bob's flight school. There is nothing wrong with getting your ratings and then going out on your own to learn and gain experience.

I wouldn't have bothered to post this except I'm a little taken aback by you thinking that there is something wrong with "getting your ratings and then going out on your own". To me, that's what it's all about.

[foztofly]

[ QUOTE ]

FSA stands above the rest.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to... you? I am an instructor at DCA in Sanford, so I thought for me, DCA stood above the rest, including Flight Safety. I am not saying FS is not a good school, it obviously is - but I will not be so arrogant to think where I attend is the best for everyone, nor will I compromise my professionalism or DCA's by going on FS's board saying that DCA is the best. Apparently Comair, Chataqua, ASA and Skywest hiring authorities feel that DCA is a good school in that they have all hired instructors recently, as I am sure instructors from FS, PanAm, ATP, Bob's Local FBO, etc. have been hired by someone. My point is not that DCA is the only school to go to if you want to fly for Delta - it is that whatever path you think best for your situation, take it and maintain a good attitude and work your butt off and you will be flying right seat for some airline if that is your goal. This whole thing kind makes me think.... is Ford or Chevy better???
As far as the 5 - 6 percent of initial enrollment that make it to the airline interview, is this a published number or one quoted by admissions? I will agree that the percentage is pretty low of those who start to those that complete the whole program, but my experience would have it closer to probably 25%. I started with 40 others 2 years ago, and there are about 17 +/- a couple of us that made it. One girl quit the first week, some didn't finish for financial reasons, some found jobs closer to home, some didn't like it, some couldn't handle it and some didn't get hired. Actually, the first of my enrollment class made it to the airlines this past month - he came in with his commercial license so his time was accelerated here. If anyone has questions about DCA and what it is like to go from PPL to instructing, feel free to send me a message. I will answer only according to what my experiences or those around me have been. Safe flying to all!!

[SJFLYER]

The new trick at DCA is to hire most of the people that complete the CFI and the II course, make them wait 5 to 6 months to do a stanz course and then get rid of 30 to 40 percent of the stanz class.

For example this week out of 11 flight instructors in stanz class 5 where fired. So much for the excellent training they received.

[Wannabe2]

Five of those people were not fired. Here's what I heard. Three were asked to do some remedial training and then come back in the next standz class. The other two I think were let go, as this was already their second time through standz class.

[foztofly]

This "new trick" is exactly why the change you complained about was made. The flight for standz is now at the end of CFI-I, at a time when the person is flying on a regular, if not daily, basis instead of being after the wait for standz class (which incidentally has been reduced to 3 months from 4 months... not 6 months). From my standz class everyone made it, with one person having been given a second chance to do the flight. This was just a few months ago. Pretty neat trick, huh?

[CLR4ILS]

I see DE727 is still trying to talk people out of FSA. How ya doing 727? I haven't chatted with you in awhile.

Here's another OPINION...I have attended FSA for Private, Commercial, instrument, multi-engine, CFII, and MEI. I completed my CFI and commercial single-engine-add part 61. If I could do it all over again I would have completed ALL of it at FSA. The two part 61 ratings were done at two different FBO schools. The training at both schools was really bad in comparison to the training I recieved at FSA. I am sure there are some good FBO operations out there, but they are far and few between. I will admit that the SE ADD came in a little cheaper than FSA but the CFI went over what I would have paid at FSA.

The point here is... go for the quality training. What I have found is that the 61 environment lacks structure, a good syllabus, and the big one, standardization. In any school you will no doubt fly with at least two different instructors during your training, maybe more. In a 61 environment your next instructor will most likely tell you your first instructor taught you incorrectly or he has a different way he wants you to do it. This can be very frustrating and costly for the student. I know, during my CFI I had three different instructors as two moved on. All three taught the same maneuvers three different ways. You will not experience this at FSA because ALL of the instructors go through standardization to teach the same procedures, the correct way. I am sure DCA does something similar. Most 141 programs have some sort of standardization program.

Who ever you choose, a 141 structured program is your best bet. Remember, part 61 may get through the checkride tightly squeezing into the PTS range, but what you want is to be so prepared that you are far above the "basic" "minimum" PTS standards and the checkride is a breeze. That is the kind of training that FSA will give you.

Glad to see you again 727. How's UPS? My friend with UPS jumped into the MD-11 from the 747. He trained at the "Flight Safety International" Center in Long Beach, CA. Hey, have you been holding out on us 727? You too have trained with Flight Safety, haven't you?

Just messin with ya...ILS

[mtsu_av8er]

There's nothing at all wrong with learning 10 ways to do something. That's part of the beauty of flyinf with different people.

[CLR4ILS]

Sorry, you missed the point. Do you teach your students three or more different ways to set up and perform steep turns, turns around a point, short field TKF/landing etc.? I think someone needs to break out the Airplane Flying Handbook. You especially do not do that to a new student. Teach them the correct way, the first time. Law of primacy right?

ILS

[stuckingfk]

I have had probably around 14 instructors in my day, and by far the best was trained part 61. Training 141 may or may not be better, but nothing can substitute for EXPERIENCE, which many instructors at pt. 141 schools DO NOT HAVE.

[DE727UPS]

I've not trained with flight safety.

I guess I come here as a staunch supporter of 61 training and experience. Everyone thinks it's all about FSA, or DCA, or whatever academy to make it to the airlines...which is what the ads want you to believe...which is total BS. Glad it worked for you though.....

Another gripe I have is towards 300 or 400 hour jet pilots. Unless you trained with the US military...I don't think a 300 hour pilot has any business in a jet airliner. I hear that some FSA guys have worked as CFI's and have 1000 total and 200 multi or so before they move on...I think this is a good thing.

UPS does all their training in house. At times in the past we have used Northwest, USair, United, Boeing (FSA), and some others for limited training....not anymore.

I'm on the 757 now.

[DE727UPS]

I've not trained with flight safety.

I guess I come here as a staunch supporter of 61 training and experience. Everyone thinks it's all about FSA, or DCA, or whatever academy to make it to the airlines...which is what the ads want you to believe...which is total BS. Glad it worked for you though.....

Another gripe I have is towards 300 or 400 hour jet pilots. Unless you trained with the US military...I don't think a 300 hour pilot has any business in a jet airliner. I hear that some FSA guys have worked as CFI's and have 1000 total and 200 multi or so before they move on...I think this is a good thing.

UPS does all their training in house. At times in the past we have used Northwest, USair, United, Boeing (FSA), and some others for limited training....not anymore.

I'm on the 757 now.

[DE727UPS]

I've not trained with flight safety.

I guess I come here as a staunch supporter of 61 training and experience. Everyone thinks it's all about FSA, or DCA, or whatever academy to make it to the airlines...which is what the ads want you to believe...which is total BS. Glad it worked for you though.....

Another gripe I have is towards 300 or 400 hour jet pilots. Unless you trained with the US military...I don't think a 300 hour pilot has any business in a jet airliner. I hear that some FSA guys have worked as CFI's and have 1000 total and 200 multi or so before they move on...I think this is a good thing.

UPS does all their training in house. At times in the past we have used Northwest, USair, United, Boeing (FSA), and some others for limited training....not anymore.

I'm on the 757 now.

[DE727UPS]

I've not trained with flight safety.

I guess I come here as a staunch supporter of 61 training and experience. Everyone thinks it's all about FSA, or DCA, or whatever academy to make it to the airlines...which is what the ads want you to believe...which is total BS. Glad it worked for you though.....

Another gripe I have is towards 300 or 400 hour jet pilots. Unless you trained with the US military...I don't think a 300 hour pilot has any business in a jet airliner. I hear that some FSA guys have worked as CFI's and have 1000 total and 200 multi or so before they move on...I think this is a good thing.

UPS does all their training in house. At times in the past we have used Northwest, USair, United, Boeing (FSA), and some others for limited training....not anymore.

I'm on the 757 now.

[mtsu_av8er]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, you missed the point. Do you teach your students three or more different ways to set up and perform steep turns, turns around a point, short field TKF/landing etc.? I think someone needs to break out the Airplane Flying Handbook. You especially do not do that to a new student. Teach them the correct way, the first time. Law of primacy right?

ILS

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa...calm down, stud!! I never said I teach anybody three ways of doing things!! All I said was that it's ok to learn more than one of doing something. Especially over the course of all of your training.

If you think there's only one way to perform each and every manuever, you're a little far off the mark!!

[CLR4ILS]

Your going to tell me that an FSA instructor that has for example, 1200TT with 700ME/Instrument does not have the experience that a part 61 instructor with 1200TT and 100ME has? Yeah, that makes sense. The average IP at FSA has 700 multi when they reach 1200TT. "Most" 61 guys STRUGGLE for multi time, let alone multi instrument time. Not to mention that all FSA instructors teach only multi-instrument in the Seminole once they reach 200 dual given. So where is this extra fabulous 61 experience? Do not even try to say it is taking up sky divers, towing gliders, or towing banners. Call the pilot recruiter for ASA and ask her what she thinks about those sky diver, Glider and banner towing hours in the logbook. I know a guy that flies VFR doing traffic watch in a 172, does that count for extra experience? maybe your practice areas are different or the airports that you take your students to are far more advanced than ours?

IF, a 61 guy is lucky, he might get some SIC or to sit right seat in a single pilot 135 operation "a few times". Sure I would take it, but even that would not out weigh the FSA instructors experience. The only advantage a 61 instructor has over the FSA instructor is being in the FBO environment for "connections". Even then, an FSA instructor (or other 141 instructor) can find the same leads to get picked up with a 135 operation at say 700TT. Actually, if the FSA and 61 instructor both put in for the same low time 135 job, I'll bet big money the FSA guy will get it. Get it?

I am sorry if I sound a bit rude, but I just do not understand where this extra experience is that we 141, structured program, thorough checklist and procedure instructors do not have. yes, FSA teaches their students to think outside the box too and to handle any unforeseen situation that may come our way.

To end on a positive note. I know there are some good 61 instructors out there that truly care about their students and what they learn. Look deeper into my post and you will see what I was referring to. HINT: Structure, Syllabus, oh yeah, and actually using a checklist, which is rare in the 61 environment.

Good Times.....ILS

[stuckingfk]

I am glad you responded, you are helping me make my point even better.

So let me ask you this, so who do these 0 time to CFI/CFII's teach with their 200 hours? I'll tell you, the private and commercial students. I think that is wrong, but it is how the system works. I have worked with a 20,000 hour instructor and I guarantee you he could fly the pants off most, if not all the pilots there. And this guy didn't have 700 multi hours, just a desire to teach. So I am sorry, all that multi time you get at FSI doesn't mean jack when it comes to teaching skills, it just happens to look better in your logbook.

And like you said before, "FBO instructors having connections," you are right, that is huge, because it isn't what you know, it is who you know.

[Doug Taylor]

I think the important thing to remember is that flying isn't specifically "procedurally"-based, it's "performance"-based.

Having learned steep turns thru a small part-61 school, and then thru a large part-141 program, and then once again at Skyway and then once again at Delta, there are various ways to teach the specific procedure.

But you only pass the procedure if the results are the same within the FAA parameters.

Is there one way to teach a particular manuever? Absolutely not.

Is there one acceptable result? Absolutely yes.

My best advice would be to initially teach a manuever as per the syllabus you're working with. If the student cant' perform as per your syllabus, he most likely isn't failing, perhaps the syllabus itself is failing, teach it differently. The most important thing I've learned thru almost 8,000 hours of flying is that performance isn't an algebraic equation. It's more of an essay-style answer. You've got to do what it takes to get the performance to match your desired result.

I had an instructor attempt to fail me because I did a flow pattern incorrectly. My response: "Did I miss an item on the after landing checklist?" His: "No, but the flows are done as follows" My response: "That wasn't part of the sylllabus and if I missed an item as part of my flow and missed it while reviewing the checklist, I won't challenge your assessment".

2150 RPM + 2.65 degrees nose up + 3 degrees of nose high trim does not equal the perfect downwind pattern speed. Enough power + enough pitch + enough trim to stabilize the aircraft does however.

[Doug Taylor]

I think the important thing to remember is that flying isn't specifically "procedurally"-based, it's "performance"-based.

Having learned steep turns thru a small part-61 school, and then thru a large part-141 program, and then once again at Skyway and then once again at Delta, there are various ways to teach the specific procedure.

But you only pass the procedure if the results are the same within the FAA parameters.

Is there one way to teach a particular manuever? Absolutely not.

Is there one acceptable result? Absolutely yes.

My best advice would be to initially teach a manuever as per the syllabus you're working with. If the student cant' perform as per your syllabus, he most likely isn't failing, perhaps the syllabus itself is failing, teach it differently. The most important thing I've learned thru almost 8,000 hours of flying is that performance isn't an algebraic equation. It's more of an essay-style answer. You've got to do what it takes to get the performance to match your desired result.

I had an instructor attempt to fail me because I did a flow pattern incorrectly. My response: "Did I miss an item on the after landing checklist?" His: "No, but the flows are done as follows" My response: "That wasn't part of the sylllabus and if I missed an item as part of my flow and missed it while reviewing the checklist, I won't challenge your assessment".

2150 RPM + 2.65 degrees nose up + 3 degrees of nose high trim does not equal the perfect downwind pattern speed. Enough power + enough pitch + enough trim to stabilize the aircraft does however.

[CLR4ILS]

You were fortunate to have had an instructor with that kind of time and experience. That is great. Now, tell me how many other small FBO instructors have that kind of experience. Probably something along the lines of 1 in 1,000 to 5,000. Besides, if all of his twenty thousand hours were done instructing, I am not impressed. Do you think he is any better at teaching pre-private maneuvers or commercial maneuvers at 20,000 than he was at 8,000 hours of dual given? Assuming, it is all dual given of course. We have an instructor with 29,000 hours at FSA. He knows his PTS and FARS but even he will tell you that after several thousand hours of dual given it is all the same. I have trained 61. Two ratings at two different FBO schools. The training was horrible, the planes were buckets, and the instructors knew maybe half of what they should have. Is this every FBO school? No, but a damn good majority of them.

As far as teaching maneuvers a bunch of different ways. Yes, you can go from one maneuver into another without completely cleaning up the airplane (ie. slow flight into stalls etc.). So the setup can vary. As far as performing it, Doug, you hit it on the head when you said we need to perform it to PTS the way the FAA wants to see it. In my 61 experience, all three instructors taught several maneuvers three different ways and Doug hit it on the head again when he said they are more than likely not following a syllabus. Out of the three, only one was teaching it correctly and unfortunatley he was the first one to leave the school.

My big beef with small 61 operations is the lack of structure, syllabus, checklists, and procedures. Doug hit it again, when he said maneuvers are not just "procedural". The maneuver has to start somewhere though or the student will be lost. The procedures that FSA uses to set up the maneuvers are a guideline that will most likely produce the best results. The "performance" on any particular day may change and so may the inputs required to complete the maneuver successfully. The problem with most small operations is they do not provide the procedures for the maneuvers at all. So the instructors are left to teach it whichever way. This ultimatley hurts the student when he bounces from one instructor to another. At FSA and Riddle etc. The procedures for the maneuvers are really straight out of the Airplane Flying Handbook. They are just put in order of operation on "paper" and configured for the particular aircraft they are using (speeds, power settings etc.)....guidelines.

When a 61 operation does not use procedures or checklists, it does not mean you are teaching them to think outside the box, giving them real world "think for yourself" experience. There is a reason FSA, UND, Riddle etc. have a much higher pass rate than the 61 FBO schools, I just explained it. If you do not believe me then contact your local FSDO and have them give you the pass rates for the 141 vs 61 schools. The Scottsdale FSDO told me themselves that they wished everyone trained 141. At least one examiner there. The examiner that told me said, "I can tell you have been through Flight Safety". Nice compliment, I thought... I have some fellow FSA friends doing the Mesa PACE program right now. One of them called me and told me that during his final stage check, the check pilot told him, I can always tell which students came from FSA and ERAU. Gee, more nice compliments on these 141 pilots flying abilities.

Remember, this is my opinion of 61 operations. You do not have to share it with me. I do know alot of instructors at 61 ops that have said, I wish I would have gone to someplace like FSA Riddle etc. And again, I know guys that have spent more than I did at FSA at a 61 school. It ALL depends on the person, what they put into it, and how hard they are willing to work with respect to how much money they will spend.

It's been fun...really

ILS