Sad but True

[SJFLYER]

I spent 19K just to get a CFI-A certificate in state of the crap airplanes at DCA. 6k for VFP /IFP and 13K for the CFI-A.

I never busted a stage check or check ride and I only unsated 2 flights. I was the third person to finish the CFI-A course in my class and most of my peers spent several thousand dollars more than I did to finish. The average cost in my class just for the CFI portion (no IFP/VFP) was over 15K.

My favorite part of the course was the in-house check ride for which I was charged over 900 dollars.

DCA was one of the biggest mistakes I have ever made.
The quality of the education is not worth not even a 1/4 of what I paid for it. And the customer service is not existent.

[MDPilot]

Quote from SJFLYER before starting Comair academy last year:
"All the academies do a good job training you to be a cfi but at the end of the day only one school can significantly increase your chances of getting to the regionals 18 months after graduation. And you get a CRJ prep course free to help you cruise during initial training. The worse case scenario is that you don't get hired as a cfi at DCA and then you are in the same boat that you would be at, if you did your cfi course somewhere else. Most academies have a very long waiting list to start instructing."


I would say your worst case scenario just came true, huh? Except you spent over twice as much to get there versus a FBO. Nobody ever listens to the naysayers, everybody always believes the rose colored picture the salesmen paint.

[JAM]

SJFLYER:

Did you interview for a CFI job yet? If so, what was the result?

[mtsu_av8er]

Incredible!! How much will it cost to add your CFI-I there??

[JEP]

Touche (sp?)...

[montanapilot]

But remember folks.

"Trust Us We Have the Connections"
"Being Owned by Delta Means Everything"

Hopefully those considering DCA will listen to and learn from your experience.

[Doug Taylor]

I'd still love to determine exactly who the person that said I was on the "outs" at Delta because of my candor actually was

I've been waiting for the "cease and desist" nastygram in my employee file since last August but it's never come.

[DE727UPS]

Doug. What exactly does "being on the outs" at Delta mean? Not that you are....but I never figured that one out. It made me laugh the first time I heard it.

SJFlyer. I'm curious if after going through all that BS, if you still have a shot at the RJ interview? Don't you have to get hired as a CFI first? In spite of your training experiences, would you still work there as a CFI if you could get the RJ interview?

[montanapilot]

[ QUOTE ]

Doug. What exactly does "being on the outs" at Delta mean? Not that you are....but I never figured that one out. It made me laugh the first time I heard it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well I was at the DCA dog and pony show, up in Seattle. After the big multimedia slideshow about how wonderful the school is and how you need to drop 70,000 in order to "get the competive edge" I was talking to the recruiter guys and the topic of jetcareers came up, they said that Delta is not too happy with Doug's views on us and that they try to tell him to not talk about their school because he is compromising his job because they are a part of Delta. Then they go on to say, "well Doug went to ERAU so long ago that he's just not up on all the new training that is available for pilots today".


This was last summer sometime.

[DE727UPS]

What a crock. Thank God for unions so we don't have to put up with crap like that.

[Tim]

That crap about the company not being happy about Doug and JC sounds like DCA's rep is feeding a big ole line of crap. If that was the case I am sure Delta would be asking me about JC also because as an employee I am critical of the company also as well as about another 40,000 employees. I vistied DCA in 99 and the reception I got there sucked and they kept preaching Delta this and that but I finally told the guy cut the Delta promo I work for them now and tell me about your school. He had a shocked look and really after that he struggled because I screwed up his sales pitch. Just because Delta owns the school doesnt mean you are going to be flying for Delta in the -88 or 737 in a year or 2. Schools get scared when someone has a site that tells the truth about the way things work. That is why JC is great site to get the full truth of what really goes on.

[Doug Taylor]

Actually, I get pretty pissed when that stuff happens.

There are three circumstances that'll make me fly off the handle: Dissing my wife, dissing my momma or threatening my livelihood.

When I heard that someone was insinuating that I'm going to lose my job because my views interfered with a marketing campaign, I almost went to DEFCON-1 and I think I made it abundantly clear that "homey don't play that".

[SJFLYER]

I did not interview with DCA. When I joined DCA I was told in writing that I would get an interview after completing my initial CFI. Halfway through the CFI-A rating DCA decided to change their policy and interview students after the CFI-I.

The main two reasons why I decided not to do my CFI-I and interview were:

1. I did not want to spend 7k on a CFI-I for something that I was able to do for 1K. It is just amazing that DCA charges students over 120 dollars an hour for a PCAD and 35 dollars an hour for classroom lectures that most of the time involve someone reading the gleim.

2. I don't want to be part of an organization whose business plan revolves around squeezing student financially dry and setting them up for financial failure. There is no way in hell that a person can repay an 80K or 100K loan on a FO's salary.

It is sad and depressing to constantly see students been cheated out of their hopes and dreams because they went through the 50 or 60 thousand dollars that they were quoted and they can't afford to go further in debt; and all they have to show for that huge debt is a commercial certificate with no instructor ratings.

Anyway, I just hope that my experience at the academy keeps at least one person from getting financially drained with no real value in return.


SJFLYER
CFI/CFII/MEI

[Tim]

What happened to you at DCA with changing the program is what happened to me at ATA. They went from 141 to 61. Supposedly they gave up there 141 deal, I dont believe you just give it up. Anyway I was at 175 or so hours and getting ready for CSEL when all of a sudden I had to get up to 250. They said they would cover the cost but near the end they wanted to charge me something like $5000 dollars for flight time. I flipped and told them where they could take that idea and shove it. I wound up talking to a lawyer down there and he said they either had to honor there contract or I could go after for breach of contract. After telling Scott Williams that the hole thing got cleared up real fast.

Doug I am like you dont mess with wife or mom or paycheck.

Oh yeah not sure if you have been flying the past 2 days but the weather is ATL has sucked with afternoon TS. Delays have been up to 2.5 hours.

[foztofly]

In the two years I have been at DCA, everything I have always seen and heard about those coming in with previous ratings is that you will qualify to interview only after completing 2 ratings here (unless you have CFI, CFI-I and MEI with 1000TT + other qualifiers I am not sure about but think it is something like 100hrs dual given in multi). As far as the contract being changed on when the interview and Standz flight are completed, yes it was changed. However, for those already at that stage when the change was made effective, you were grandfathered. The change was made to be more fair to those students. SJ, I am not familiar with your particular situation, so I am not commenting directly to you. I am merely stating what I have been told and what I have read. By the way, I am not in admissions or marketing at DCA, I am an instructor at SFB.

[Tim]

I hope they put in writing to the people they were "grandfathering". That is the only way I would trust them. ATA told us one thing and did another and refused to put it in writing saying "trust them" and we see where that got everyone.

[planediveguy]

I am sorry to read this post... DCA has changed the interview in order to make things BETTER for you. During my time we go interviewed after CFI and then went on to get CFII after getting a conditional hire. You still had to go through standz...and that used to be a "Make or Break" flight... not so anymore unless you do something incredibly stupid or create an unsafe situation. If you have a simple "Outside PTS" problem they will get you remedial training and you still get in.

Because the school accepted a lot of people with Commecial Multi ratings, we went though a period of having too many instructor candidates. That lead to a long waiting period for Standz and it was hard to be back into it afer not flying for 4 or 5 months. So it was decided that it was better to interview candidates right after their CFII checkride. Since that is the time when they are at the hight of their proficiency. And that allowed the school to choose the candidates that were better qualified. You can get certified anywhere... but being qualified is a different game... There is an article that summs it up on AOPA Magazine this month... it deals with PTS and ADM...That is what we look for from our instructors... decision making skills.

Now I had to deal first hand with a student that came from a part 141 school in the midwest. They garanteed him a set price... he got what he paid for! He got his instrument ticket without ever shooting an NDB approach neither flying a DME ARC.... I heard that some schools deactivate their ADF receivers and placard them so they don't have to deal with NDBs... That is a discount instument certification! I guess some people wouldn't mind gettin it through the web by flying MFS if it were available.... good luck! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Now you can argue that NDBs will be out of service soon... But they are still around and will be around internationally for while...

[chrisdahut1]

[ QUOTE ]
I am sorry to read this post... DCA has changed the interview in order to make things BETTER for you. During my time we go interviewed after CFI and then went on to get CFII after getting a conditional hire. You still had to go through standz...and that used to be a "Make or Break" flight... not so anymore unless you do something incredibly stupid or create an unsafe situation. If you have a simple "Outside PTS" problem they will get you remedial training and you still get in.

Because the school accepted a lot of people with Commecial Multi ratings, we went though a period of having too many instructor candidates. That lead to a long waiting period for Standz and it was hard to be back into it afer not flying for 4 or 5 months. So it was decided that it was better to interview candidates right after their CFII checkride. Since that is the time when they are at the hight of their proficiency. And that allowed the school to choose the candidates that were better qualified. You can get certified anywhere... but being qualified is a different game... There is an article that summs it up on AOPA Magazine this month... it deals with PTS and ADM...That is what we look for from our instructors... decision making skills.

Now I had to deal first hand with a student that came from a part 141 school in the midwest. They garanteed him a set price... he got what he paid for! He got his instrument ticket without ever shooting an NDB approach neither flying a DME ARC.... I heard that some schools deactivate their ADF receivers and placard them so they don't have to deal with NDBs... That is a discount instument certification! I guess some people wouldn't mind gettin it through the web by flying MFS if it were available.... good luck! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Now you can argue that NDBs will be out of service soon... But they are still around and will be around internationally for while...

[/ QUOTE ]

Might i add, try shooting an ILS approach with a LOM with a missed approach hold at the LOM. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[DE727UPS]

We'll...I don't have a DME or ADF in my IFR trainer. I have a Garmin 430 IFR approach approved GPS. If they want to learn NDB's and arc's, I can teach it in the ground trainer. Otherwise, I could care less if they know it. Knowing that stuff doesn't make a great IFR pilot....tell me how much actual your students get and how many approaches in actual did they get to shoot where they didn't see the runway at the MAP. Now that's instrument flying....

By the way....the FAA must not feel like NDB's and arc's are that big of a deal since they aren't required to get the rating.

[mtsu_av8er]

Man, that NDB crap is getting really old really fast. It's an old technology, and if you aren't going to use it, there's not need to know it.

I've never said "Oh Goodness, this plane doesn't have an ADF - how can I make it to my destination!!".

Discount IFR rating? I say it's milking students to make them learn crap they're not going to use.

In 3 years, I've never flown one NDB approach (due to weather), and I was in an aircraft with a 430. Well, I did one on my CFII checkride. Wait - it was with a 430 too!!

Get the picture?

[DE727UPS]

"In 3 years, I've never flown one NDB approach (due to weather)"

How about.....In a career starting in 1979, I've never flown one NDB approach cause there was nothing else available.

Also, when GPS went into our 727's, the company stopped bothing with training us for NDB approaches, and we lost the certification to do them. What a bummer.....

IFR GPS, though.....that's the future. If your school (DCA?) doesn't have the equipment to train you in GPS approaches, then you are missing out. Maybe you should check out some little part 61 schools that have the equipment....

[Doug Taylor]

I think the worst I've flown is a localizer back course, but no NDB's since 1996.

The simulator, however, is a different story!

[Pirep]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the worst I've flown is a localizer back course, but no NDB's since 1996.

The simulator, however, is a different story!

[/ QUOTE ]

Doug is totally correct. You definitely will shoot plenty in the sim. Good fun!
Can't remember where we were flying the trip to a couple of months ago, but the ILS was out of service and they were using an NDB approach. We got the airport in sight fairly quickly, so we were cleared for the visual instead. I was kind of disappointed, I was looking forward to the NDB approach. I've also talked to a friend recently who had to shoot an NDB on their trip. The point being when you do get to a flying job somewhere, you'd better be able to shoot a simple NDB approach. I'd like to see and hear the Sim instructor or the Captain's face when you tell them "I don't do NDB's"! The words "Next!" springs to mind as they send you packing. Until they are decommisioned and don't exist anymore, then you can pipe up, but if there is a chance you might have to shoot one, I think it would be beneficial if you knew what the heck you are doing. It's not like ADF's and NDB's are rocket science or anything, get the picture? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buck.gif[/img]

[Doug Taylor]

Besides, they're pretty easy in the sim, but would probably scare the bejezus out of me if I had to do one to minimums.

I did a localizer approach (without DME) to bare bones minimums with no approach lights in a driving, windy rainstorm a few months ago and I think I used about two of nine lives that evening.

[chrisdahut1]

[ QUOTE ]

Discount IFR rating? I say it's milking students to make them learn crap they're not going to use.



[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Well, I'm glad my instrument instructor "milked" me teaching something I'd "never use", because I was asked to do some ADF work on my sim eval at my CHQ interview last week! Some people were even asked to do an NDB hold! Never saw that coming [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]