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August 31st, 2004, 01:26
| #51 |
| Old Skool  Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 6,578
|  Re: Sad but True
Never done an NDB approach since I've been at UPS, that would be 1990. The ADF's in the 727's have inop stickers and NDB approaches aren't in the ops specs anymore. The 757/767 has ADF receivers and we can do NDB approaches but we do them in LNAV. In LNAV, the FMS gets position input from three IRS's and is also constantly updated by VOR/DME. So, in LNAV, you are flying the NDB final course but the nav system is NOT using the ADF signal. You are supposed to "monitor" the ADF needle for proper indication during the approach as a back up....yeah, like I have time for that..... |
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August 31st, 2004, 12:16
| #52 |
| Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia
Posts: 12,590
| Re: Sad but True
[ QUOTE ] I don't know where you are getting the idea that we don't shoot NDB approaches or don't have ADF's in the plane. I have yet to talk to any other airline pilots that don't have ADF's in their planes. Next time you fly on an airline, have a look at the radio tuning panel. See that freq next to the letters ADF? That tunes in the NDB, now select the ADF with your bearing pointers, Voila! Rocket science at its finest. ILS' do go out of service. It used to happen all the time landing 27R in Sanford. So tell all of those Domestic 727's, 737's, Dc-9's and British charter 747's, 767's, 330's...and such that come into Sanford that they can't shoot those NDB approaches that they were cleared for. It would appear you loathe the basic NDB, but we still use it if we have to. So if we might have to use it, you'd better be able to. Still a good eval no matter how much you disagree. [/ QUOTE ] The above posts are perfect examples of what I'm talking about. So, still a stupid eval no matter how much YOU disagree... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] |
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August 31st, 2004, 12:27
| #53 |
| Junior Member  Join Date: May 2002 Location: Louisville, KY & Florida
Posts: 269
| Re: Sad but True
Hmmm, I see a 500 post thred sometime in the near future....I think we're all just going to have to agree to disagree. Might I just add though, that despite my previous arguments, I still do feel that NDBs suck. And NDB approaches are NOT fun. Especially when it's partial panel (yeah, guess what I got on my IPC yesterday!) |
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August 31st, 2004, 18:02
| #54 |
| Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia
Posts: 12,590
| Re: Sad but True
I feel you, Chris. The fact of the matter is that pilots find it hard to let things go. Alot of pilots that have been flying for 30 years can't let the NDB go. It's a part of their world, and they find it hard to believe that there might be a generation that laughs at the notion of doing such things. I know that there are lots of airports out there with NDB approaches, and that's groovy. However, there are alot of other things that I can lose sleep over. |
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August 31st, 2004, 19:36
| #55 |
| Administrator  Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark
Posts: 6,897
| Re: Sad but True
Lloyd, you're now going to be evaluated on PAR approaches.
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August 31st, 2004, 21:03
| #56 |
| Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia
Posts: 12,590
| Re: Sad but True
[ QUOTE ] Lloyd, you're now going to be evaluated on PAR approaches. [/ QUOTE ] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I was just telling a student yesterday that I wanted to take him up to Ft. Campbell to see if they have PAR capability, and if so if they'd give us one or two. Simply for the cool factor!! I used to do them out at New River, but they stopped letting us for a while.... Happen to have your IFR supplement handy? If so, do they PAR at Fort Campbell? |
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August 31st, 2004, 22:43
| #57 |
| Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark
Posts: 6,897
| Re: Sad but True
KHOP has PAR to RW 23 and ASR to RW 5/23. Pretty big field.
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September 1st, 2004, 00:41
| #58 |
| Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia
Posts: 12,590
| Re: Sad but True
[ QUOTE ] KHOP has PAR to RW 23 and ASR to RW 5/23. Pretty big field. [/ QUOTE ] Well, there we go!! I always thought PARs were pretty fun, and I think that they can show a student just how important a smooth, planned, stable approach is. |
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September 1st, 2004, 14:44
| #59 |
| Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Florida
Posts: 72
| Re: Sad but True
[ QUOTE ] The fact of the matter is that pilots find it hard to let things go. Alot of pilots that have been flying for 30 years can't let the NDB go. It's a part of their world, and they find it hard to believe that there might be a generation that laughs at the notion of doing such things. [/ QUOTE ] LLoyd, LLoyd, LLoyd, - You're killing me! Absolutely killing me. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/insane.gif[/img] Hopefully this is just flame bait [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bandit.gif[/img], but if not- Hard to let what go? I don't know what world you are flying in, but isn't it still part of our (emphasis on "our") aviation world? (Why do I feel like Jeff Spicolie(sp) talking to Mr. Hand "what's wrong with a little feast on our time?") Until they are just "chat in the hangar" in the "remember when..." column, they are still in our world whether we like it or not. If you feel that strongly about it, you should start a grassroots movement petitioning to get a "cease and desist" order from the FAA on the use of ADF's and NDB's because of "cruel and unusual punishment" and the "emotional scarring" that it is leaving on some pilots. Call it how you see it, but as for me and the airline I work for and others, we can and do shoot NDB approaches sometimes (and this is with a modern glass cockpit), ergo it's still part of our world whether you want to accept it or not. I also made sure my students were well informed on the ADF's use and limitations. I would have been totally unprofessional in my duties and responsibilities as an instructor otherwise. If I told them "I'll give you a quick lesson on these but don't worry, you'll never have to use these antiquated relics from years gone by, they are just there for show" and they ended up having to rely on their use at one point in their flying career (for real or in a sim on a checkride)- well, they would be justified in punching me in the face for deriliction of duty as an instructor if they couldn't use it efficiently. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buck.gif[/img] Now having said that, don't think I'm a big fan of the NDB. It's subject to way too many outside influences to be extremely accurate. Is it easy to use, yes. Is it always accurate, no. Some NDB's have a great signals, others are definitely a bit suspect. Would I accept an NDB approach in hilly or mountainous terrain? No way. But since this thread started I've been trying to notice more airports we fly to that have only NDB approaches to certain runways. We just flew into PNS the other day and low and behold 35 doesn't have an ILS. We were cleared for the usual visual, but just for kicks dialed in the freq for the NDB and monitored the inbound course. It was pretty dead on. I'd have no problem accepting that approach if so given. (you pretty much come in over the water anyway, no hills to contend with). I don't know how much evidence you need, but please don't do your students a disservice by giving them a myopic view leading them to believe they are stupid and not ever going to be used. It might bite them in the butt, then it would be your fault. Always teach to expect the unexpected. Let them make up their own minds about the "old man" of navigation. If they are "lucky" enough to never have to use them, holy cow, good for them. But I would never bet on those odds. p.s. - I'll be the first person to sign your petition if it is economically and strategically justified. . |
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September 1st, 2004, 15:44
| #60 |
| Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia
Posts: 12,590
| Re: Sad but True
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The fact of the matter is that pilots find it hard to let things go. Alot of pilots that have been flying for 30 years can't let the NDB go. It's a part of their world, and they find it hard to believe that there might be a generation that laughs at the notion of doing such things. [/ QUOTE ] LLoyd, LLoyd, LLoyd, - You're killing me! Absolutely killing me. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/insane.gif[/img] Hopefully this is just flame bait [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bandit.gif[/img], but if not- [/ QUOTE ] No, it's not flame bait. Like I said before, I know that NDB's are important. I understand that you can still be tested on NDB approaches, and so it's my responsibility to insure that my students are both competent and confident in the use of the ADF. That being said, I also think that it is just as important, if not MORE important, that they be able to navigate and execute approaches using GPS. This is the future! So, I make sure that I teach them NDB's. I teach them that it's important. I teach them that the FAA may want to test them on it. But I don't lose any sleep over it. [ QUOTE ] Hard to let what go? I don't know what world you are flying in, but isn't it still part of our (emphasis on "our") aviation world? [/ QUOTE ] Without a doubt. Like I said, I teach them....but I recognize that it's going to be in the past soon. [ QUOTE ] If you feel that strongly about it, you should start a grassroots movement petitioning to get a "cease and desist" order from the FAA on the use of ADF's and NDB's because of "cruel and unusual punishment" and the "emotional scarring" that it is leaving on some pilots. [/ QUOTE ] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] No, I'm not emotionally scarred by the NDB's. I've never had any problems learning how to use them. And I can teach it just fine. I would have been able to use the four range radios and lighted airways just fine, too! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [ QUOTE ] Call it how you see it, but as for me and the airline I work for and others, we can and do shoot NDB approaches sometimes (and this is with a modern glass cockpit), ergo it's still part of our world whether you want to accept it or not. [/ QUOTE ] No, I accept it. However, I still say it's stupid! I'll do the approach on the test. I still say it's stupid!! [ QUOTE ] I also made sure my students were well informed on the ADF's use and limitations. I would have been totally unprofessional in my duties and responsibilities as an instructor otherwise. If I told them "I'll give you a quick lesson on these but don't worry, you'll never have to use these antiquated relics from years gone by, they are just there for show" and they ended up having to rely on their use at one point in their flying career (for real or in a sim on a checkride)- well, they would be justified in punching me in the face for deriliction of duty as an instructor if they couldn't use it efficiently. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buck.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Agreed. But what if you spent more time on NDB approaches than GPS approaches, and they were on and had to shoot a GPS approach sometime in the future...would they be just as justified in punching you in the face? I've done more GPS approaches than I have NDB approaches. Personally, I think I've been robbed....(not really, but there's some inbalance...). [ QUOTE ] Now having said that, don't think I'm a big fan of the NDB. [/ QUOTE ] You heathen!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] I don't know how much evidence you need, but please don't do your students a disservice by giving them a myopic view leading them to believe they are stupid and not ever going to be used. It might bite them in the butt, then it would be your fault. Let them make up their own minds about the "old man" of navigation. [/ QUOTE ] I don't attempt to do them any disservice. I simply tell them that they need to know these, and that if they ever have to fly a 1970's model 172 (most 172's are this vintage), they may have to shoot one of these appraoches if they decide to frequent airports in eastern North Carolina. (just teasing....) I know they happen. And one day they may have to shoot them. However, they have a much greater chance of shooting GPS, LOC, ILS and VOR approaches. This I do tell them. |
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September 1st, 2004, 21:26
| #61 |
| Agent Smith  | Re: Sad but True
The only problem with decertifying NDB approaches is that some of us might lose our ADF RX's in the airplane, thus lose all ability to listen to "Radio Disney" while bored to death over the eastern seaboard.
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September 1st, 2004, 21:38
| #62 |
| Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia
Posts: 12,590
| Re: Sad but True
[ QUOTE ] The only problem with decertifying NDB approaches is that some of us might lose our ADF RX's in the airplane, thus lose all ability to listen to "Radio Disney" while bored to death over the eastern seaboard. [/ QUOTE ] I was lucky...I got NPR and lots of Jesus music over western NC and eastern TN!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Then I started flying that darn 430-equipped airplane with no ADF....but the audio input made the plane MP3 heaven!!! Nothing like hip-hop and heavy metal at night to keep you awake, and The Beach Boys to calm your nerves in IMC during summer T-storm season!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] |
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September 1st, 2004, 22:00
| #63 |
| Agent Smith | Re: Sad but True
Even funnier, I was flying a localizer approach in a driving, turbluent snow storm up in Marquette, MI, and Squirrel Nut Zippers "The Afterlife" was playing on the ADF. Most surreal approach I'd ever flown! |
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September 1st, 2004, 22:12
| #64 |
| Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia
Posts: 12,590
| Re: Sad but True
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] How many layfolks do you think lurk and read this stuff and freak out?? |
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September 1st, 2004, 23:17
| #65 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 319
| Re: Sad but True
Hi this is for Kristie... Hey Kristie.... no sorry to put it out that way. My friend did not get furloughed due to the failed checkride.... it was the whole TWA and the seniority thing.... I just wanted to make a point that NDBs are still around... and by the way I would sign that petition too! ( Loyd's that is...) Thanks for the lesson though... even though I had that information I appreciate you patience... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/spin2.gif[/img] |
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September 1st, 2004, 23:26
| #66 |
| Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Florida
Posts: 72
| Re: Sad but True
[ QUOTE ] That being said, I also think that it is just as important, if not MORE important, that they be able to navigate and execute approaches using GPS. This is the future! So, I make sure that I teach them NDB's. I teach them that it's important. I teach them that the FAA may want to test them on it. [/ QUOTE ] I couldn't agree with you more that students need to learn GPS also. As a source of navigation, they have to learn the GPS as well as they do the NDB. For ease of use, the Garmin 430's are a joy. GPS nav and approaches are definitely easier and more accurate than NDB's, but I saw students tending to get lulled into complacency with their navigating on cross country flights using the GPS. Is this dangerous with the reliability of todays equipment? Only time will tell. [ QUOTE ] The only problem with decertifying NDB approaches is that some of us might lose our ADF RX's in the airplane, thus lose all ability to listen to "Radio Disney" while bored to death over the eastern seaboard. [/ QUOTE ] Holy Cow Doug, I forgot all about the best radio format on the AM dial. How sickenly "pop" and fake is that radio program? But for some odd reason Disney Radio is like a Siren's song beckoning you to come along and listen. "Come, come, listen to me and my Disney family and cheesy pop music." The scary part is when you catch your Captain singing along. When they start to bust a move in the cockpit, lookout. Not a sight to behold. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buck.gif[/img] Ahh, radio Disney. Good stuff for the bored pilot. I flew with a Captain a few months back that flew cargo in a previous life. He said he would have died without his Radio Disney to keep him company on those long lonely night flights. It seems pilots are the only ones that know about it. Go figure. And speaking of Disney, this thread talk of NDB's and the future is now world of GPS kind of reminds me of the "Carousel of Progress". Probably to old of a ride for alot of the guys on here, the same ones that don't know what an E-ticket is. Ahh progress "Now is the time, now is the best time...Okay starting to ramble have to get ready for my trip and another hurricane. Hopefully have a house to come back to when I get back.Greaaaaat! |
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September 1st, 2004, 23:29
| #67 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 319
| Re: Sad but True
Now I was not expecting such a long discussion on NDBs... I was told that some schools deactivate the ADF's in their airplanes so they don't have to subject their students to NDB intercepting and tracking and NDB appraches and holds... They do that so they can maintain their pass rate and keep their 141 status... And the point was: $1000 CFII or $5000 CFII courses.... in the end they might look like they are the same exact licenses.... but I have to argue that the end product ( the CFII ) is not equal.... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bandit.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bandit.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bandit.gif[/img] |
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September 1st, 2004, 23:35
| #68 |
| Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia
Posts: 12,590
| Re: Sad but True
[ QUOTE ] $1000 CFII or $5000 CFII courses.... in the end they might look like they are the same exact licenses.... but I have to argue that the end product ( the CFII ) is not equal.... [/ QUOTE ] Price isn't the determining factor there...I know a whole lot of CFII's that spent less than $1000 for the ticket and are great. I know others that spent $5000 (or more) and they suck. Cost isn't everything.... |
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September 1st, 2004, 23:36
| #69 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 916
| Re: Sad but True
The other thing that NDB approaches teach, is indirectly how to use an RMI. I was lucky when doing my instrument rating as the FSI Seminoles actually have RMI's, but I would hate to have a student that goes all the way to their first 135/airline job not knowing how to track the needle of an RMI. Even in a glass cockpit using an FMS, I often have a RMI needle up and I am comfortable using it since I know how to do an NDB approach. I also do not understand why there was some discussion about not doing DME arcs because the aircraft only had a GNS430. The GPS works just as good as DME when doing the arc. Maybe I am missing something? |
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September 2nd, 2004, 00:06
| #70 |
| Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia
Posts: 12,590
| Re: Sad but True
[ QUOTE ] It seems pilots are the only ones that know about it. Go figure. [/ QUOTE ] And parents of 8-year old girls.... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] |
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September 2nd, 2004, 00:08
| #71 |
| Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia
Posts: 12,590
| Re: Sad but True
[ QUOTE ] The other thing that NDB approaches teach, is indirectly how to use an RMI. [/ QUOTE ] The head always falls, the tail always rises! If you remember that, and that the tail indicates the radial you're on, the rest is cherry pie!!! |
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September 2nd, 2004, 00:09
| #72 |
| Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark
Posts: 6,897
| Re: Sad but True
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The other thing that NDB approaches teach, is indirectly how to use an RMI. [/ QUOTE ] The head always falls, the tail always rises! [/ QUOTE ] Unless you're in the southern hemisphere. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] ....and if you buy that....... |
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September 2nd, 2004, 00:52
| #73 |
| Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia
Posts: 12,590
| Re: Sad but True
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The other thing that NDB approaches teach, is indirectly how to use an RMI. [/ QUOTE ] The head always falls, the tail always rises! [/ QUOTE ] Unless you're in the southern hemisphere. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] ....and if you buy that....... [/ QUOTE ] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Now, I'm not that stupid.... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] |
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September 2nd, 2004, 03:49
| #74 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Space Shuttle
Posts: 620
| Re: Sad but True
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] It seems pilots are the only ones that know about it. Go figure. [/ QUOTE ] And parents of 8-year old girls.... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] I know about Radio Disney.... I have to listen to it everyday. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/insane.gif[/img] |
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September 2nd, 2004, 23:37
| #75 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 319
| Re: Sad but True
Actually Loyd, I tend to agree that money isn't everything... And there is the fact that the best pilots aren't always the best instructors... and vice versa.... In the same line of thinking we could say that just because you attended an Ivy League school it doesn't mean that you are a better professional....but the odds are against that, and that is why Ivy Leaguers have a better shot right out of the oven... In reality it all depends on the instructor's ability and the student's motivation. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] |
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