Sad but True - Page 2

mtsu_av8er · August 27th, 2004, 15:50

[ QUOTE ]

Really? Well, I'm glad my instrument instructor "milked" me teaching something I'd "never use", because I was asked to do some ADF work on my sim eval at my CHQ interview last week! Some people were even asked to do an NDB hold! Never saw that coming [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, don't get me wrong - there are alot of companies out there prentending that it's 1984!!!

For a company that operates pretty much all jet fleets with nice FMS junk, would you not agree that it was a stupid evaluation?

mtsu_av8er · August 27th, 2004, 15:52

[ QUOTE ]

IFR GPS, though.....that's the future. If your school (DCA?) doesn't have the equipment to train you in GPS approaches, then you are missing out. Maybe you should check out some little part 61 schools that have the equipment....

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the big schools are too busy paying for ads to put GPS in the planes....

chrisdahut1 · August 27th, 2004, 17:52

DCA doesn't do any GPS training in the IR course, but you do plenty in the IFR section of the multi course. By the time you graduate, you are proficient in both NDB and GPS navigation/approaches.

The NDB work in the sim eval required me to shoot a full ILS approach (after I was told that tracon's radar had failed), with the LOM as an initial approach fix. The hold for the missed was also an NDB hold at an LOM. I had to shoot to minimums and then go missed as published. While such a scenario is unlikely while flying in a jet under 121, I wouldn't say it is completely unrealistic.

Wannabe2 · August 27th, 2004, 20:55

mtsu,

i dont think it is a stupid evaluation at all, if i had two candidates to choose from and one could fly everything except an NDB and one could fly everything, all else being equal, i will hire the one who could do it all... the fact that the candidate is that prepared shows me his level of commitment to my company.

foztofly · August 27th, 2004, 23:58

[ QUOTE ]
Most of the big schools are too busy paying for ads to put GPS in the planes....

[/ QUOTE ]
Hummm, wonder why they put new Garmin 430 stacks in all the Piper aircraft we have and got them approved for the 172 fleet too. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

DE727UPS · August 28th, 2004, 00:43

"The hold for the missed was also an NDB hold at an LOM. I had to shoot to minimums and then go missed as published. While such a scenario is unlikely while flying in a jet under 121, I wouldn't say it is completely unrealistic."

How many 121 jets don't have an FMC? With an FMC, to hold at the LOM you push the "hold" button and fill in a few boxes....

mtsu_av8er · August 28th, 2004, 02:42

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most of the big schools are too busy paying for ads to put GPS in the planes....

[/ QUOTE ]
Hummm, wonder why they put new Garmin 430 stacks in all the Piper aircraft we have and got them approved for the 172 fleet too. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant that with sarcasm. i'm sure that many schools have GPS in the aircraft....

Pirep · August 28th, 2004, 13:19

[ QUOTE ]
For a company that operates pretty much all jet fleets with nice FMS junk, would you not agree that it was a stupid evaluation?

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though many airlines have GPS and that great "FMS junk" in their planes, don't assume that they are allowed to shoot GPS approaches with them. I know at Comair and Chautauqua, we aren't allowed to shoot GPS approaches even though our planes are so equipped. Why this is, I am not sure, but I'll find out. So as far as a stupid eval, not so. I guess being a more complete pilot is an important eval though. Can this person expect the unexpected and adapt accordingly? or are they so one dimensional that they crumble when things are different? How many times in aviation have you caught yourself saying "I haven't seen that before" or "I haven't heard that before" or "that's never happened before", especially when going to different parts of the country dealing with different ATC's and airports. Like I said before, until you never see an NDB approach plate anymore, NDB's are decomissioned, and they take that ADF receiver out of your plane, wouldn't it be prudent to be able to correctly use all available resources if the need arises? (and whoever thinks the need won't arise has never had a receiver go inop in flight before) Always have a few extra goodies in your bag of tricks. Being able to use the ADF receiver in your plane is a simple trick and it just might keep you in the "loop" if you can make the simple "sense" of it all. (puns were intended) [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/insane.gif[/img]

SteveC · August 28th, 2004, 13:40

[ QUOTE ]
Being able to use the ADF receiver in your plane is a simple trick and it just might keep you in the "loop" if you can make the simple "sense" of it all. (puns were intended) [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/insane.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Obscure/subtle puns. Gotta love 'em.
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

foztofly · August 28th, 2004, 14:07

Not sure about 121 ops, but aren't you responsible for operational knowledge of all parts of the aircraft? If installed, can't the FAA test you on an NDB hold or approach or intercepting and tracking?? I agree that they are outdated and the last nav aid I would want to use, especially shooting an approach, but I also want to be able to use everything I can in the aircraft to help me out, including an ADF receiver. If nothing else, at least it points out the lightning to me so I can stay away from it [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

SteveC · August 28th, 2004, 14:16

[ QUOTE ]
...but I also want to be able to use everything I can in the aircraft to help me out, including an ADF receiver. If nothing else, at least it points out the lightning to me so I can stay away from it [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't recommend relying too heavily on the lightning detection capabilities, though...
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

planediveguy · August 28th, 2004, 17:01

NDB's are easy and simple to use, once you truly understand it. I agree that it is old technology and I will be happy the day they are all gone. However, like I said .... They are still around...

Being located in "Sunny" Florida, I have had a lot more actual IFR experience with my students than expected...

And DCA does have dual 430 on all the new Seminoles, The piper arrows are being outfitted with them and the 172's will be next...

If you want to do the mimimum necessary to get your certificates, that's your premise...you will become what we call a "PTS" pilot.

In other words... somone that just meets the minimum standards...

Is that the way you want to be trained?

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

planediveguy · August 28th, 2004, 17:07

By the way Doug that last post was directed to all reading this thread.. not directly to you!

I had a friend that "busted" a 767 sim checkride on an NDB apporach.... Why the hell they asked him to shoot an NDB on a 767 I don't know... but it happened... He got furloughed from AA (ex TWA) and is now a 757 Captain for a charter company....

Kristie · August 29th, 2004, 03:11

[ QUOTE ]
I had a friend that "busted" a 767 sim checkride on an NDB apporach.... Why the hell they asked him to shoot an NDB on a 767 I don't know... but it happened... He got furloughed from AA (ex TWA) and is now a 757 Captain for a charter company....

[/ QUOTE ] now, that's an interesting story...are you trying to say that the guy got "furloughed" because of a busted SIM checkride using an approach that normally isn't used for that type of aircraft? hmmmmm... maybe you don't know this yet, but that's just NOT how it works.. if you bust a SIM checkride while in training (cuz all checkrides are done during training), they put you in for more training... and then retest you (even I know that...)

if he got furloughed, then it was most likely due to seniority (with the AA/TWA merger) &/or maybe 9/11.. not a busted SIM checkride.

Furloughed means you have opportunity to come back - later, when the company starts hiring again....

typically, if you do something seriously wrong like continued failed checkrides (meaning more than 1 failed checkride), then your not furloughed - your fired - on the spot. That's why recurrent training is so important.

foztofly · August 29th, 2004, 03:52

He never said that he was furloughed due to that "busted" sim checkride. I think he was giving an example that NDB approaches are still tested at all levels, not just in a C172, and followed up with that individual's credentials.

mtsu_av8er · August 29th, 2004, 16:52

[ QUOTE ]
He never said that he was furloughed due to that "busted" sim checkride. . .

[/ QUOTE ]

I know that's not what he meant, but it sure seemed that way.

mtsu_av8er · August 29th, 2004, 17:09

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For a company that operates pretty much all jet fleets with nice FMS junk, would you not agree that it was a stupid evaluation?

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though many airlines have GPS and that great "FMS junk" in their planes, don't assume that they are allowed to shoot GPS approaches with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody is assuming this at all. There is no need for most airlines to shoot GPS approaches. Why, when an ILS or VOR approach will do?

[ QUOTE ]

So as far as a stupid eval, not so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still say yes, it is. If a company isn't allowed to shoot NDB approaches, and the aircraft aren't equipped with ADF's (this all depends on the company/aircraft), why evaluate a person's ability to shoot an NDB approach? That's like testing a flight attendant on landing skills. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

[ QUOTE ]

I guess being a more complete pilot is an important eval though. Can this person expect the unexpected and adapt accordingly? or are they so one dimensional that they crumble when things are different?

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is the logic behind having an applicant execute an approach that the company NEVER doesn, well...the company needs to do some thinking.

[ QUOTE ]
How many times in aviation have you caught yourself saying "I haven't seen that before" or "I haven't heard that before" or "that's never happened before", especially when going to different parts of the country dealing with different ATC's and airports.

[/ QUOTE ]

Happens to all of us.

[ QUOTE ]

Like I said before, until you never see an NDB approach plate anymore, NDB's are decomissioned, and they take that ADF receiver out of your plane, wouldn't it be prudent to be able to correctly use all available resources if the need arises?

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, 100%. However, how many airlines allow their crews to execute NDB approaches? Not many, I'd bet.

[ QUOTE ]

(and whoever thinks the need won't arise has never had a receiver go inop in flight before) Always have a few extra goodies in your bag of tricks. Being able to use the ADF receiver in your plane is a simple trick and it just might keep you in the "loop" if you can make the simple "sense" of it all. (puns were intended) [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/insane.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, agreed. And I can use the ADF. I can shoot an NDB approach. If I'm training a student in a plane with an ADF, (s)he'll learn to do the same.

I will, however, spend more time teaching GPS than NDB. Period. It's going away, and it's becoming a very esoteric skill.

chrisdahut1 · August 29th, 2004, 22:12

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For a company that operates pretty much all jet fleets with nice FMS junk, would you not agree that it was a stupid evaluation?

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though many airlines have GPS and that great "FMS junk" in their planes, don't assume that they are allowed to shoot GPS approaches with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody is assuming this at all. There is no need for most airlines to shoot GPS approaches. Why, when an ILS or VOR approach will do?

[ QUOTE ]

So as far as a stupid eval, not so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still say yes, it is. If a company isn't allowed to shoot NDB approaches, and the aircraft aren't equipped with ADF's (this all depends on the company/aircraft), why evaluate a person's ability to shoot an NDB approach? That's like testing a flight attendant on landing skills. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I guess I wasn't clear the first or second time. I was shooting an ILS APPROACH that required the use of an NDB as a secondary navigation aid. I didn't have to shoot an NDB approach, but that sure didn't mean I didn't need to use the ADF!

mtsu_av8er · August 30th, 2004, 01:32

Well, Hell, Chris, that's a whole different glass of whiskey!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Pirep · August 30th, 2004, 02:09

[ QUOTE ]
I still say yes, it is. If a company isn't allowed to shoot NDB approaches, and the aircraft aren't equipped with ADF's (this all depends on the company/aircraft), why evaluate a person's ability to shoot an NDB approach? That's like testing a flight attendant on landing skills. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know where you are getting the idea that we don't shoot NDB approaches or don't have ADF's in the plane. I have yet to talk to any other airline pilots that don't have ADF's in their planes. Next time you fly on an airline, have a look at the radio tuning panel. See that freq next to the letters ADF? That tunes in the NDB, now select the ADF with your bearing pointers, Voila! Rocket science at its finest. ILS' do go out of service. It used to happen all the time landing 27R in Sanford. So tell all of those Domestic 727's, 737's, Dc-9's and British charter 747's, 767's, 330's...and such that come into Sanford that they can't shoot those NDB approaches that they were cleared for. It would appear you loathe the basic NDB, but we still use it if we have to. So if we might have to use it, you'd better be able to. Still a good eval no matter how much you disagree.

[ QUOTE ]
If this is the logic behind having an applicant execute an approach that the company NEVER doesn, well...the company needs to do some thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess what? CHQ flies into Key West. Guess what KEYW doesn't have? You're right! No ILS. Guess what approach they do have to shoot in there? Holy cow! it's an NDB-A approach!

Don't mean to dog you here, but once again, airlines do still have to shoot them. My dad had to all the time going into Central and South America in the 757/767. He didn't like it, but they did.

[ QUOTE ]
That's like testing a flight attendant on landing skills. Stupid, stupid, stupid

[/ QUOTE ]
Haven't you ever landed a flight attendant before? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] But you are right on that one- stupid, stupid, stupid. They bounce. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Kristie · August 30th, 2004, 02:46

I know he never said that.. but that's what was implied in his msg...that's why i asked instead of assuming that he "meant" it that way.

JAM · August 30th, 2004, 12:13

Shot an NDB in actual to about 200' above MDA a couple of months ago in the CRJ. The ILS and VOR approach to the airport were out. Worked great (the CRJ's ADF works a little better than the ones at DCA :-), and I am sure the passengers appreciated getting to their destination.

I guess I am in the minority, though, having less than 1000 line hours and an real NDB approach under my belt. I have also shot LOC, LOC-BC, VORs, and DME arcs. Fundamental navigation skill (ala NDB and VOR tracking) comes in real handy when the magic box decides it has reached its duty limitations. Almost all of us flying FMS/C aircraft have had days without the help of the computer.

mtsu_av8er · August 30th, 2004, 14:53

Well, we could always get rid of those crappy FMS's and all get good on NDB approaches!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Doug, which airports do you get to shoot NDB approaches at? Don, DE727 - does UPS shoot any NDB approaches? Mr. Tenney, did Midway do NDB approaches?

I'm just wondering.....

Doug Taylor · August 30th, 2004, 19:05

[ QUOTE ]
Doug, which airports do you get to shoot NDB approaches at?

[/ QUOTE ]

None. And I haven't shot one on the line since becoming an airline pilot in 1996 (~8.5 years?) Most captains I know wouldn't accept one unless it was already VFR in the domestic U.S..

I'd better read the entirety of the thread to make sure I didn't step on anyone's toes by answering... But I saw "Doug" and the "You've got MAIL!" went off in my head.

Carry on!

mtsu_av8er · August 31st, 2004, 00:07

[ QUOTE ]
I'd better read the entirety of the thread to make sure I didn't step on anyone's toes by answering... But I saw "Doug" and the "You've got MAIL!" went off in my head.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

No toe stepping here.

August 27th, 2004, 15:50	#26
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,590	Re: Sad but True [ QUOTE ] Really? Well, I'm glad my instrument instructor "milked" me teaching something I'd "never use", because I was asked to do some ADF work on my sim eval at my CHQ interview last week! Some people were even asked to do an NDB hold! Never saw that coming [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Oh, don't get me wrong - there are alot of companies out there prentending that it's 1984!!! For a company that operates pretty much all jet fleets with nice FMS junk, would you not agree that it was a stupid evaluation?

August 27th, 2004, 15:52	#27
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,590	Re: Sad but True [ QUOTE ] IFR GPS, though.....that's the future. If your school (DCA?) doesn't have the equipment to train you in GPS approaches, then you are missing out. Maybe you should check out some little part 61 schools that have the equipment.... [/ QUOTE ] Most of the big schools are too busy paying for ads to put GPS in the planes....

August 27th, 2004, 17:52	#28
chrisdahut1 Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Louisville, KY & Florida Posts: 269	Re: Sad but True DCA doesn't do any GPS training in the IR course, but you do plenty in the IFR section of the multi course. By the time you graduate, you are proficient in both NDB and GPS navigation/approaches. The NDB work in the sim eval required me to shoot a full ILS approach (after I was told that tracon's radar had failed), with the LOM as an initial approach fix. The hold for the missed was also an NDB hold at an LOM. I had to shoot to minimums and then go missed as published. While such a scenario is unlikely while flying in a jet under 121, I wouldn't say it is completely unrealistic.

August 27th, 2004, 20:55	#29
Wannabe2 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 224	Re: Sad but True mtsu, i dont think it is a stupid evaluation at all, if i had two candidates to choose from and one could fly everything except an NDB and one could fly everything, all else being equal, i will hire the one who could do it all... the fact that the candidate is that prepared shows me his level of commitment to my company.

August 27th, 2004, 23:58	#30
foztofly Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Sanford, FL Posts: 91	Re: Sad but True [ QUOTE ] Most of the big schools are too busy paying for ads to put GPS in the planes.... [/ QUOTE ] Hummm, wonder why they put new Garmin 430 stacks in all the Piper aircraft we have and got them approved for the 172 fleet too. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

August 28th, 2004, 00:43	#31
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,578	Re: Sad but True "The hold for the missed was also an NDB hold at an LOM. I had to shoot to minimums and then go missed as published. While such a scenario is unlikely while flying in a jet under 121, I wouldn't say it is completely unrealistic." How many 121 jets don't have an FMC? With an FMC, to hold at the LOM you push the "hold" button and fill in a few boxes....

August 28th, 2004, 02:42	#32
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,590	Re: Sad but True [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Most of the big schools are too busy paying for ads to put GPS in the planes.... [/ QUOTE ] Hummm, wonder why they put new Garmin 430 stacks in all the Piper aircraft we have and got them approved for the 172 fleet too. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] I meant that with sarcasm. i'm sure that many schools have GPS in the aircraft....

August 28th, 2004, 13:19	#33
Pirep Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 72	Re: Sad but True [ QUOTE ] For a company that operates pretty much all jet fleets with nice FMS junk, would you not agree that it was a stupid evaluation? [/ QUOTE ] Even though many airlines have GPS and that great "FMS junk" in their planes, don't assume that they are allowed to shoot GPS approaches with them. I know at Comair and Chautauqua, we aren't allowed to shoot GPS approaches even though our planes are so equipped. Why this is, I am not sure, but I'll find out. So as far as a stupid eval, not so. I guess being a more complete pilot is an important eval though. Can this person expect the unexpected and adapt accordingly? or are they so one dimensional that they crumble when things are different? How many times in aviation have you caught yourself saying "I haven't seen that before" or "I haven't heard that before" or "that's never happened before", especially when going to different parts of the country dealing with different ATC's and airports. Like I said before, until you never see an NDB approach plate anymore, NDB's are decomissioned, and they take that ADF receiver out of your plane, wouldn't it be prudent to be able to correctly use all available resources if the need arises? (and whoever thinks the need won't arise has never had a receiver go inop in flight before) Always have a few extra goodies in your bag of tricks. Being able to use the ADF receiver in your plane is a simple trick and it just might keep you in the "loop" if you can make the simple "sense" of it all. (puns were intended) [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/insane.gif[/img]

August 28th, 2004, 13:40	#34
SteveC Modulator Join Date: May 2003 Location: GRR Posts: 8,788	Re: Sad but True [ QUOTE ] Being able to use the ADF receiver in your plane is a simple trick and it just might keep you in the "loop" if you can make the simple "sense" of it all. (puns were intended) [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/insane.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Obscure/subtle puns. Gotta love 'em. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

August 28th, 2004, 14:07	#35
foztofly Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Sanford, FL Posts: 91	Re: Sad but True Not sure about 121 ops, but aren't you responsible for operational knowledge of all parts of the aircraft? If installed, can't the FAA test you on an NDB hold or approach or intercepting and tracking?? I agree that they are outdated and the last nav aid I would want to use, especially shooting an approach, but I also want to be able to use everything I can in the aircraft to help me out, including an ADF receiver. If nothing else, at least it points out the lightning to me so I can stay away from it [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

August 28th, 2004, 14:16	#36
SteveC Modulator Join Date: May 2003 Location: GRR Posts: 8,788	Re: Sad but True [ QUOTE ] ...but I also want to be able to use everything I can in the aircraft to help me out, including an ADF receiver. If nothing else, at least it points out the lightning to me so I can stay away from it [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] I wouldn't recommend relying too heavily on the lightning detection capabilities, though... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

August 28th, 2004, 17:01	#37
planediveguy Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 319	Re: Sad but True NDB's are easy and simple to use, once you truly understand it. I agree that it is old technology and I will be happy the day they are all gone. However, like I said .... They are still around... Being located in "Sunny" Florida, I have had a lot more actual IFR experience with my students than expected... And DCA does have dual 430 on all the new Seminoles, The piper arrows are being outfitted with them and the 172's will be next... If you want to do the mimimum necessary to get your certificates, that's your premise...you will become what we call a "PTS" pilot. In other words... somone that just meets the minimum standards... Is that the way you want to be trained? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

August 28th, 2004, 17:07	#38
planediveguy Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 319	Re: Sad but True By the way Doug that last post was directed to all reading this thread.. not directly to you! I had a friend that "busted" a 767 sim checkride on an NDB apporach.... Why the hell they asked him to shoot an NDB on a 767 I don't know... but it happened... He got furloughed from AA (ex TWA) and is now a 757 Captain for a charter company....

August 29th, 2004, 03:11	#39
Kristie Big Chief's Woman Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Scottsdale, Arizona Posts: 19,292 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Sad but True [ QUOTE ] I had a friend that "busted" a 767 sim checkride on an NDB apporach.... Why the hell they asked him to shoot an NDB on a 767 I don't know... but it happened... He got furloughed from AA (ex TWA) and is now a 757 Captain for a charter company.... [/ QUOTE ] now, that's an interesting story...are you trying to say that the guy got "furloughed" because of a busted SIM checkride using an approach that normally isn't used for that type of aircraft? hmmmmm... maybe you don't know this yet, but that's just NOT how it works.. if you bust a SIM checkride while in training (cuz all checkrides are done during training), they put you in for more training... and then retest you (even I know that...) if he got furloughed, then it was most likely due to seniority (with the AA/TWA merger) &/or maybe 9/11.. not a busted SIM checkride. Furloughed means you have opportunity to come back - later, when the company starts hiring again.... typically, if you do something seriously wrong like continued failed checkrides (meaning more than 1 failed checkride), then your not furloughed - your fired - on the spot. That's why recurrent training is so important.

August 29th, 2004, 03:52	#40
foztofly Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Sanford, FL Posts: 91	Re: Sad but True He never said that he was furloughed due to that "busted" sim checkride. I think he was giving an example that NDB approaches are still tested at all levels, not just in a C172, and followed up with that individual's credentials.

August 29th, 2004, 16:52	#41
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,590	Re: Sad but True [ QUOTE ] He never said that he was furloughed due to that "busted" sim checkride. . . [/ QUOTE ] I know that's not what he meant, but it sure seemed that way.

August 29th, 2004, 17:09	#42
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,590	Re: Sad but True [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] For a company that operates pretty much all jet fleets with nice FMS junk, would you not agree that it was a stupid evaluation? [/ QUOTE ] Even though many airlines have GPS and that great "FMS junk" in their planes, don't assume that they are allowed to shoot GPS approaches with them. [/ QUOTE ] Nobody is assuming this at all. There is no need for most airlines to shoot GPS approaches. Why, when an ILS or VOR approach will do? [ QUOTE ] So as far as a stupid eval, not so. [/ QUOTE ] I still say yes, it is. If a company isn't allowed to shoot NDB approaches, and the aircraft aren't equipped with ADF's (this all depends on the company/aircraft), why evaluate a person's ability to shoot an NDB approach? That's like testing a flight attendant on landing skills. Stupid, stupid, stupid. [ QUOTE ] I guess being a more complete pilot is an important eval though. Can this person expect the unexpected and adapt accordingly? or are they so one dimensional that they crumble when things are different? [/ QUOTE ] If this is the logic behind having an applicant execute an approach that the company NEVER doesn, well...the company needs to do some thinking. [ QUOTE ] How many times in aviation have you caught yourself saying "I haven't seen that before" or "I haven't heard that before" or "that's never happened before", especially when going to different parts of the country dealing with different ATC's and airports. [/ QUOTE ] Happens to all of us. [ QUOTE ] Like I said before, until you never see an NDB approach plate anymore, NDB's are decomissioned, and they take that ADF receiver out of your plane, wouldn't it be prudent to be able to correctly use all available resources if the need arises? [/ QUOTE ] Agreed, 100%. However, how many airlines allow their crews to execute NDB approaches? Not many, I'd bet. [ QUOTE ] (and whoever thinks the need won't arise has never had a receiver go inop in flight before) Always have a few extra goodies in your bag of tricks. Being able to use the ADF receiver in your plane is a simple trick and it just might keep you in the "loop" if you can make the simple "sense" of it all. (puns were intended) [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/insane.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Again, agreed. And I can use the ADF. I can shoot an NDB approach. If I'm training a student in a plane with an ADF, (s)he'll learn to do the same. I will, however, spend more time teaching GPS than NDB. Period. It's going away, and it's becoming a very esoteric skill.

August 29th, 2004, 22:12	#43
chrisdahut1 Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Louisville, KY & Florida Posts: 269	Re: Sad but True [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] For a company that operates pretty much all jet fleets with nice FMS junk, would you not agree that it was a stupid evaluation? [/ QUOTE ] Even though many airlines have GPS and that great "FMS junk" in their planes, don't assume that they are allowed to shoot GPS approaches with them. [/ QUOTE ] Nobody is assuming this at all. There is no need for most airlines to shoot GPS approaches. Why, when an ILS or VOR approach will do? [ QUOTE ] So as far as a stupid eval, not so. [/ QUOTE ] I still say yes, it is. If a company isn't allowed to shoot NDB approaches, and the aircraft aren't equipped with ADF's (this all depends on the company/aircraft), why evaluate a person's ability to shoot an NDB approach? That's like testing a flight attendant on landing skills. Stupid, stupid, stupid. [/ QUOTE ] OK, I guess I wasn't clear the first or second time. I was shooting an ILS APPROACH that required the use of an NDB as a secondary navigation aid. I didn't have to shoot an NDB approach, but that sure didn't mean I didn't need to use the ADF!

August 30th, 2004, 01:32	#44
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,590	Re: Sad but True Well, Hell, Chris, that's a whole different glass of whiskey!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

August 30th, 2004, 02:09	#45
Pirep Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 72	Re: Sad but True [ QUOTE ] I still say yes, it is. If a company isn't allowed to shoot NDB approaches, and the aircraft aren't equipped with ADF's (this all depends on the company/aircraft), why evaluate a person's ability to shoot an NDB approach? That's like testing a flight attendant on landing skills. Stupid, stupid, stupid. [/ QUOTE ] I don't know where you are getting the idea that we don't shoot NDB approaches or don't have ADF's in the plane. I have yet to talk to any other airline pilots that don't have ADF's in their planes. Next time you fly on an airline, have a look at the radio tuning panel. See that freq next to the letters ADF? That tunes in the NDB, now select the ADF with your bearing pointers, Voila! Rocket science at its finest. ILS' do go out of service. It used to happen all the time landing 27R in Sanford. So tell all of those Domestic 727's, 737's, Dc-9's and British charter 747's, 767's, 330's...and such that come into Sanford that they can't shoot those NDB approaches that they were cleared for. It would appear you loathe the basic NDB, but we still use it if we have to. So if we might have to use it, you'd better be able to. Still a good eval no matter how much you disagree. [ QUOTE ] If this is the logic behind having an applicant execute an approach that the company NEVER doesn, well...the company needs to do some thinking. [/ QUOTE ] Guess what? CHQ flies into Key West. Guess what KEYW doesn't have? You're right! No ILS. Guess what approach they do have to shoot in there? Holy cow! it's an NDB-A approach! Don't mean to dog you here, but once again, airlines do still have to shoot them. My dad had to all the time going into Central and South America in the 757/767. He didn't like it, but they did. [ QUOTE ] That's like testing a flight attendant on landing skills. Stupid, stupid, stupid [/ QUOTE ] Haven't you ever landed a flight attendant before? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] But you are right on that one- stupid, stupid, stupid. They bounce. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

August 30th, 2004, 02:46	#46
Kristie Big Chief's Woman Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Scottsdale, Arizona Posts: 19,292 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Sad but True I know he never said that.. but that's what was implied in his msg...that's why i asked instead of assuming that he "meant" it that way.

August 30th, 2004, 12:13	#47
JAM Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 246	Re: Sad but True Shot an NDB in actual to about 200' above MDA a couple of months ago in the CRJ. The ILS and VOR approach to the airport were out. Worked great (the CRJ's ADF works a little better than the ones at DCA :-), and I am sure the passengers appreciated getting to their destination. I guess I am in the minority, though, having less than 1000 line hours and an real NDB approach under my belt. I have also shot LOC, LOC-BC, VORs, and DME arcs. Fundamental navigation skill (ala NDB and VOR tracking) comes in real handy when the magic box decides it has reached its duty limitations. Almost all of us flying FMS/C aircraft have had days without the help of the computer.

August 30th, 2004, 14:53	#48
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,590	Re: Sad but True Well, we could always get rid of those crappy FMS's and all get good on NDB approaches!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] Doug, which airports do you get to shoot NDB approaches at? Don, DE727 - does UPS shoot any NDB approaches? Mr. Tenney, did Midway do NDB approaches? I'm just wondering.....

August 30th, 2004, 19:05	#49
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,926 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Sad but True [ QUOTE ] Doug, which airports do you get to shoot NDB approaches at? [/ QUOTE ] None. And I haven't shot one on the line since becoming an airline pilot in 1996 (~8.5 years?) Most captains I know wouldn't accept one unless it was already VFR in the domestic U.S.. I'd better read the entirety of the thread to make sure I didn't step on anyone's toes by answering... But I saw "Doug" and the "You've got MAIL!" went off in my head. Carry on!

August 31st, 2004, 00:07	#50
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,590	Re: Sad but True [ QUOTE ] I'd better read the entirety of the thread to make sure I didn't step on anyone's toes by answering... But I saw "Doug" and the "You've got MAIL!" went off in my head. [/ QUOTE ] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] No toe stepping here.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode