Jet Starter Units

[mjg407]

Do most FBO's carry them? What is the plan if your APU goes Tango Uniform? Anyone know what PSI the output is? Thanks.

[n57flyguy]

From the line service prospective, most full service FBOs should. If your APU is spent, you'll start with the GPU plugged in. Output is up to 28 volts for most aircraft electrical systems. What aircraft would you need a plug in for?

[mjg407]

Originally Posted by n57flyguy

From the line service prospective, most full service FBOs should. If your APU is spent, you'll start with the GPU plugged in. Output is up to 28 volts for most aircraft electrical systems. What aircraft would you need a plug in for?

Electrical won't work on a P-3, needs air, minimum of 30 PSI. Our electrical requires 115 VAC 400 HZ so it's complicated. However we can battery start, just need a JASU.

[Stone Cold]

Originally Posted by mjg407

Do most FBO's carry them? What is the plan if your APU goes Tango Uniform? Anyone know what PSI the output is? Thanks.

I do not know for the bigger airports...they may have them, but I would definitely check it out before you go there as to what their capabilities are.

Smaller airports, you are lucky if they even have a GPU, much less a huffer or whatever you big plane drivers call them.

Originally Posted by n57flyguy

From the line service prospective, most full service FBOs should. If your APU is spent, you'll start with the GPU plugged in. Output is up to 28 volts for most aircraft electrical systems. What aircraft would you need a plug in for?

Read again what he wrote. He is wondering about a "huffer" or "blower" or whatever the term is. Does your FBO carry one? I know they'll have GPU's, but they are only good for smaller jets. According to Bombardier, the Lear 60 has the biggest P&W engines that still use an electrical starter. Bigger than that and they need pneumatic starters.

[mjg407]

Originally Posted by Stone Cold

I do not know for the bigger airports...they may have them, but I would definitely check it out before you go there as to what their capabilities are.

Smaller airports, you are lucky if they even have a GPU, much less a huffer or whatever you big plane drivers call them.

Yeah, that's exactly right. Need a Huffer, blower, etc to start the big T-56s. We currently are SOL if a tanker loses the APU on a P-3, so looking to see if there are alternatives to flying a new one up there if we should lose one.

[minitour]

Just get all of the line guys to blow REALLY hard!

-mini

[n57flyguy]

Originally Posted by mjg407

Electrical won't work on a P-3, needs air, minimum of 30 PSI. Our electrical requires 115 VAC 400 HZ so it's complicated. However we can battery start, just need a JASU.

Haha, I was like a GPU isn't that hard to figure out. Thats why the PSI confused me.

Never knew that about the P-3. That would be a complicated set up to power of a generator. I can see how the battery jump would work however.

Originally Posted by Stone Cold

I do not know for the bigger airports...they may have them, but I would definitely check it out before you go there as to what their capabilities are.

Smaller airports, you are lucky if they even have a GPU, much less a huffer or whatever you big plane drivers call them.

Read again what he wrote. He is wondering about a "huffer" or "blower" or whatever the term is. Does your FBO carry one? I know they'll have GPU's, but they are only good for smaller jets. According to Bombardier, the Lear 60 has the biggest P&W engines that still use an electrical starter. Bigger than that and they need pneumatic starters.

No, our FBO does not carry them. What engines are on the Lear 60? They come in quite a bit, almost always requiring a GPU...but I always figured it was becuase the APU wasn't the best performer.

mjg407, could you explain how the huffer system works and how your pneumatics starts the engines?

Thanks for clearing that up though!

[n57flyguy]

Originally Posted by minitour

Just get all of the line guys to blow REALLY hard!

-mini

We have do that enough

[N519AT]

We have one available to use at my field, however we have to borrow it from one of the airlines.

Many military jets come in requesting a bottle start. I forget how much the cart holds PSI wise, but I'm not sure if it would be enough for all four engines. The thing weighs a ton and for some reason 800-1000 PSI rings a bell...

Can you do a cross bleed start on the aircraft?

[mjg407]

Originally Posted by n57flyguy

mjg407, could you explain how the huffer system works and how your pneumatics starts the engines?

Thanks for clearing that up though!

The air start unit is required (now that I read the manual) a minimum of 90 psi at 32 Pounds Per Square Inch Gauge (psig) pressure. Here's the quick blurb:

Turbine engines have large, heavy rotors that must be accelerated to a high rotational speed in order to provide sufficient air compression for self-sustaining operation. This process takes significantly longer and requires much more energy than starting a reciprocating engine. Smaller turbine engines are usually started by an electric motor, while larger turbine engines are usually started by an air turbine motor. Whether the starter is electrically, pneumatically, or hydraulically powered, however, the amount of energy required is far greater than what could be provided by a storage device (battery or air tank) of reasonable size and weight.

Here's what they typically look like..

[mjg407]

Originally Posted by N519AT

We have one available to use at my field, however we have to borrow it from one of the airlines.

Many military jets come in requesting a bottle start. I forget how much the cart holds PSI wise, but I'm not sure if it would be enough for all four engines. The thing weighs a ton and for some reason 800-1000 PSI rings a bell...

Can you do a cross bleed start on the aircraft?

Yes, just need it for starting one engine. In fact, many times with a bad APU, we will hot load the retardant with two engines shutdown.

[cj4pilot]

Many moons ago I worked at a FBO at Santa Ana/Orange County/John Wayne airport. On the rare occasion that we needed a huffer cart we borrowed from one of the airlines. However I was the only one that they would lend it to, because I had come from the airline side. One time they called me in at 5am after getting off at 1am, because none of the airlines would loan a huffer to the morning supervisor.

The Citation X (the only Citation that uses air starters) requires an absolute minimum of 25psi start duct pressure. In case of inop APU the X can be started with a Huffer Cart, or even a buddy hose. Your company may be able to see if a buddy hose is feasible/available for the P-3 to get a aircraft out of an AOG situation and back in the air. A buddy hose can come from any other aircraft that has an acceptable bleed air supply. The check valve at the ground air inlet for the supplying aircraft needs to be removed/disabled so it can supply air to the receiving aircraft. I believe your company usually dispatches multiple aircraft to one location, only one of them would have to carry the buddy hose in cargo. Then you would have a set of "jumper cables" for your turbine air starter equipped aircraft.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by cj4pilot

Many moons ago I worked at a FBO at Santa Ana/Orange County/John Wayne airport. On the rare occasion that we needed a huffer cart we borrowed from one of the airlines. However I was the only one that they would lend it to, because I had come from the airline side. One time they called me in at 5am after getting off at 1am, because none of the airlines would loan a huffer to the morning supervisor.

The Citation X (the only Citation that uses air starters) requires an absolute minimum of 25psi start duct pressure. In case of inop APU the X can be started with a Huffer Cart, or even a buddy hose. Your company may be able to see if a buddy hose is feasible/available for the P-3 to get a aircraft out of an AOG situation and back in the air. A buddy hose can come from any other aircraft that has an acceptable bleed air supply. The check valve at the ground air inlet for the supplying aircraft needs to be removed/disabled so it can supply air to the receiving aircraft. I believe your company usually dispatches multiple aircraft to one location, only one of them would have to carry the buddy hose in cargo. Then you would have a set of "jumper cables" for your turbine air starter equipped aircraft.

Thats what we use on the UH-60; APU or -86 or buddy hose hookup.

MJG, if you need high pressure air, it'd likely be an AM32A-95 or -60. The -95 huffer provides 150 +/- 5 lbs/min @ 49 +/- 2psia (35 +/- psig). The -60 is a combined air and electrical start cart giving: air: 120 +/- 4 lbs/min (1644 +/- 55 cfm) @ 49 +/- 2psia, and electrical AC: 120/208v, 400 cycle , 3 phase, 75kva, 0.75pf, 4 wire, 120v, 1 phase, 25kva; and electrical DC: 28v, 500amp, 15kw.

[mjg407]

Originally Posted by MikeD

Thats what we use on the UH-60; APU or -86 or buddy hose hookup.

MJG, if you need high pressure air, it'd likely be an AM32A-95 or -60. The -95 huffer provides 150 +/- 5 lbs/min @ 49 +/- 2psia (35 +/- psig). The -60 is a combined air and electrical start cart giving: air: 120 +/- 4 lbs/min (1644 +/- 55 cfm) @ 49 +/- 2psia, and electrical AC: 120/208v, 400 cycle , 3 phase, 75kva, 0.75pf, 4 wire, 120v, 1 phase, 25kva; and electrical DC: 28v, 500amp, 15kw.

The NATOPS lists the acceptable USAF huffers as the AM32-60 or -90. Thanks for the suggestion of the buddy hose, that may work.