Jet experience/time

[modernicarus]

Since most medium and large corporations fly jets, I am assuming it is important to have jet time in the logbook to even be considered for a position as a corporate pilot.

If I don't want anything to do with the airlines, and flying in the military is not an option, what is the best, fastest and/or most common method to start logging jet time and building jet hours?

Thank you.

[ppragman]

Originally Posted by modernicarus

Since most medium and large corporations fly jets, I am assuming it is important to have jet time in the logbook to even be considered for a position as a corporate pilot.

If I don't want anything to do with the airlines, and flying in the military is not an option, what is the best, fastest and/or most common method to start logging jet time and building jet hours?

Thank you.

Network. I met a guy down south who had 500hrs and went right into the right seat of some kind of citation. Did that for a few years, then into the left seat. Amazing. 2000TT, 500Jet SIC, and 1000Jet PIC. He can basically right his own ticket. I think he got the job after a BFR or something. Its been over a year since I met the guy. Moral of the story. Don't be an ass, and good things will come your way.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by ppragman

2000TT, 500Jet SIC, and 1000Jet PIC. He can basically right his own ticket.

Dang...and it's only 4:30.



-mini

[dc3flyer]

I say there is no right or wrong way to get a corporate job... I haven't been able to land one yet!! (Meaning a true Part 91 corporate job.)

As far as turbine time, if you don't want the airline route, I would suggest CFI till you have 135 mins (or if you have another means to get 1200 in your logbook) then start looking at freight companies. Many freight companies have turbine equipment that you can work your way into (Airnet, Amflight, etc). Freight doesn't have to be your only option though, there are some Part 135 passenger operations that operate piston equipment as well as turbine stuff you could upgrade into.

Networking is never a bad idea. I know several people personally that have landed jobs flying multi pistons with as little as 500 hours for various places Part 91. I also know a couple of guys personally that have landed jobs flying right seat in small or mid sized jets with as little as 1000 hours. They were just in the right place at the right time with the right attitude.

[jerrywhite7]

Be a CFI!!! Build time. . . NETWORK, NETWORK, NETWORK!! Dont be a dusch!!! Be cool!! Corprate folks are looking for guys that are easy to get along with on long trips!! Cause for the most part it is just you can your capt from that day on! So be cool!!! If you have the personality of a rock, it might be hard to land a job!!!

Network, network and then when you are done. .. . network again while not being a dusch!!!

you can also go to the regionals for a year and build some time. No harm in that!

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Originally Posted by jerrywhite7

you can also go to the regionals for a year and build some time. No harm in that!

I'm not disagreeing with you, but beware of being infected with the "121 stink".

A lot of flight department DOs and chief pilots are wary of airline pilots, simply for the fact that the rigors of corporate flying involve a lot more than just punching in at your show time and going to fly the airplane.

Matter of fact, Hawker Beechcraft demo stopped hiring former airline guys. They had too many come through that couldn't hack it on a 1 hour call out, during which time they had to file flight plans, arrange hotels and transportation, get the aircraft pulled out, fuel it, pre-flight it and go. They'd drop $30,000 to type them, and they would either throw in the towel when the going got tough, or they'd go back to their airline when their number got called after a furlough.

On the other hand, the entire Under Armour flight department consists of former airline pilots.

It is a mixed bag when it comes to making the jump from airline to corporate.

[braunpilot]

It seems like more and more corporate pilots that I talk to say they would rather see 135 flying over 121. In fact I talked to one the other day and said that he would rather see someone come from freight flying because that way we know that you can hack it when the weather get tough.

[modernicarus]

Thank you all for your excellent advice. I am planning on being a CFI (at least part-time) and am also looking at buying a Twin Comanche to fly the family around and build multi time for now.

Just so that there is no confusion about the intent of this thread though, my question is not so much a discussion about building time in general, but specifically about building jet time for a professional career as a corporate pilot.

What about buying a small jet like a L29, an Iskra, or a Provost to build jet time? I don’t have any idea how much operating, maintenance, and insurance costs would be. Would that kind of jet time even be useful? Not sure how practical or economical building jet time in something like that would be, but it sure sounds fun.

Would a candidate with a 135 piston background be seriously considered by corporate flight departments? How difficult is it to move into the turbine aircraft at a freight company? Also, if a person is looking at finding pilot employment with a company that that flies jets like a Hawker 800, or a Falcon 900, is time in a turboprop very beneficial or do all/most of these employers just look for turbojet experience?

[Jason]

If you can afford to buy (and operate) an L29 to build time.... it's not worth going into this profession -- you already have way more money than you'll make as a corporate pilot. It wouldn't be economical. Honestly, it's probably not even realistic (from a variety of standpoints).

Don't get tunnel version on a jet..... I've had several corporate jobs flying everything up to a Challenger - the single BEST corporate job I ever had was flying for a company that operated a King Air C90B and a Bonanza. Bigger, "better" airplanes don't always equal better jobs -- especially in the corporate world.

In the corporate world, it's simply not about jet time vs. turboprop time vs. space shuttle time and having 10 million hours and all of that crap - make sure you work hard on building solid basic airmanship skills, network yourself efficiently and effectively (DON'T be a pest!), develop some interests outside of aviation, and in general, as someone said earlier, don't be a d-bag.

If you're dead-set on a jet job or a particular type of jet -- find operators that fly that type of jet and simply ask them what they're looking for and base your next steps on their answer.

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Originally Posted by Jason

Bigger, "better" airplanes don't always equal better jobs -- especially in the corporate world.

The only thing a bigger airplane relates to is the need for a bigger suitcase.

I'll say with no uncertainty that there is no guaranteed way to get a jet job. I got into the right seat of a Lear 55 by pure chance when I was 24 with 1000 hours total time, only 40 of which were in multi engine pistons. I made a connection when I was CFI'ing at the local airport a few years earlier, and I suppose I left a good impression on the captain, because nearly two years later, the opportunity popped up out of the blue and he ended up hiring me. It has only blossomed from there.

On the contrary, others may bust their ass for years trying to land even the cruddiest jet job, flying half ass maintained equipment at odd hours of the night.

Just like some people who find themselves CEO of a successful company, sometimes you just get lucky.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by TFaudree_ERAU

..."121 stink"...

I won't say that "airline stink" isn't real, because it is.......but for those that don't know what it is, it can be summed up in two words.

"Bad attitude"

I've got a furloughed 121er as an FO right now and his attitude is fantastic. He's a little behind the plane at times and a little sloppy (and an awful driver) but he makes up for it in attitude, willingness to learn and not being afraid to speak up when something isn't right no matter who's flying.

"Airline stink" can be overcome pretty easily if you've got a good attitude. That said, just hope that the rest of your "airline" brethren understand that, too...or you won't even get an interview to prove that you've got a good 'tude.

(Attitude + Right Place/Right Time)*Connections = Corp. job 95% of the time.

-mini

[jerrywhite7]

Originally Posted by Jason

If you can afford to buy (and operate) an L29 to build time.... it's not worth going into this profession -- you already have way more money than you'll make as a corporate pilot. It wouldn't be economical. Honestly, it's probably not even realistic (from a variety of standpoints).

Don't get tunnel version on a jet..... I've had several corporate jobs flying everything up to a Challenger - the single BEST corporate job I ever had was flying for a company that operated a King Air C90B and a Bonanza. Bigger, "better" airplanes don't always equal better jobs -- especially in the corporate world.

In the corporate world, it's simply not about jet time vs. turboprop time vs. space shuttle time and having 10 million hours and all of that crap - make sure you work hard on building solid basic airmanship skills, network yourself efficiently and effectively (DON'T be a pest!), develop some interests outside of aviation, and in general, as someone said earlier, don't be a d-bag.

If you're dead-set on a jet job or a particular type of jet -- find operators that fly that type of jet and simply ask them what they're looking for and base your next steps on their answer.

WOW!!! I typed the exact same thing yesterday but I lost my internet connection and it all went away in cyber space some where never to be see of heard of again!!!

SO TRUE, SO TRUE, SO TRUE!!!!!! Did i metion that I agree with jason!!!!??!??!

Dude, if you have those kinds of resources and cash, "lease" your plane to a few company's and hire a Jet Career guy to be your pilot or FO .. . call it done!!!

[Crockrocket94]

Also look into the Right Seat programs at some of the Sim Centers such as SimulFlight or FlightSafety.

Those are great networking oppertunities. I can speak from experience there.

[SIUav8er]

Originally Posted by TFaudree_ERAU

I'm not disagreeing with you, but beware of being infected with the "121 stink".

A lot of flight department DOs and chief pilots are wary of airline pilots, simply for the fact that the rigors of corporate flying involve a lot more than just punching in at your show time and going to fly the airplane.

Matter of fact, Hawker Beechcraft demo stopped hiring former airline guys. They had too many come through that couldn't hack it on a 1 hour call out, during which time they had to file flight plans, arrange hotels and transportation, get the aircraft pulled out, fuel it, pre-flight it and go. They'd drop $30,000 to type them, and they would either throw in the towel when the going got tough, or they'd go back to their airline when their number got called after a furlough.

On the other hand, the entire Under Armour flight department consists of former airline pilots.

It is a mixed bag when it comes to making the jump from airline to corporate.

I agree. It seems that former airline pilots have the reputation of being lazy in the 135/91 world. NOT my opinion, just the general consensus of almost every captain i have talked to and both of my DO's that I worked for.

I have heard numerous stories of furloughed airline pilots leaving as soon as they found another 121 job and/or just didnt like the type of flying that you generally do in charter/corporate (longer trips, smaller airports, inconsistent schedule)

[modernicarus]

I called the Aviation department of the company I work for today and asked what they look for in applicants and how important it is to see jet time in the resume. I was told that they aren't hiring flightcrew members right now and said it will probably be at least another 3-5 years before they do, but the aviation manager was willing to talk with me anyhow.

He said the company's minimum is 3000 hrs total time for a copilot position, but he also guaranteed that you won't get hired with only 3000 hrs TT. Jet time is extremely important (they have two Hawker 800s and a Falcon 900). He also said applicants MUST have at least 200 hrs of jet time to get their resume looked at. Type ratings are okay (SIC or PIC), but a type rating without any time in type is pretty much worthless to him.

I need to figure out a way to stay employed at this company and build enough time to eventually get into our Corporate Aviation department. It complicates things, but my reasoning is that I already have eleven years with this company and I'll be able to retire in 15 years when I reach 55 if I stay here (although I probably won't retire if I'm flying for them).

Right now it looks like I need to find work as a CFI/II/MEI ASAP, and eventually find a relatively local company that flies jets and can/will hire me part time (PIC or SIC with or without a type rating) so that I can keep a full-time job at my current company. Or I can go buy a small jet (as mentioned earlier and log that jet time). That probbly won't be feasible though, so it sounds like networking is going to be an extremely important part of my strategy for success.

Also, I'm sorry for the confusion I caused earlier, but I meant L-29 Delfin not Lear 29. I can probably find a partner to go in on a small jet and split the expenses. That might be an option worth exporing a little bit more, hopefully the operating costs aren't too horrendous.

[jerrywhite7]

what do you think your time frame might be to get "at least 2000 hours"? And working only part-time. It sounds like you have a game plan, I was just wondering what the time frame in your mind might be?

To get this amount of time could take years and years . .. even working full time as a CFI . . . Not to mention expensive.

By the way, what ratings do you have now? Just wondering . .. .

[modernicarus]

Well, this thread has really made me do some thoughtful reflection about my life and I've decided I'm not in a real hurry to get a corporate flight position. Not anymore anyhow. I'm only 40 years old, I have a decent paying job with benefits and a retirement pension. There are a few other companies around me I am going to talk with about flying for part time, but I kinda feel like Peter Gibbons from Office Space. I will try to get something to work out for me, but I'm not going to get upset if I can't find a part time corporate flight job.

Jerry, I am currently an ASEL/AMEL Commercial pilot with an Instrument rating and just over 500 TT. Between flight instructing and flying the family around in a twin comanche that I am going to buy within the next year, it might take me 5 years or so to get 3000 hrs or more.

That seems like a long time, but unless my situation changes, I think I will just go buy a twin comanche and get my CFI/II/MEI. I will network and make new friends, and I will try to build jet time, but only if it is still fun. I am also planning on getting tail-wheel endorsement, seaplane rating, mountain training, A&P licenses, and building a Bearhawk over the next several years. Somehow I am going to fly warbirds within the next 5-10 years and I am also going to get typed in some large radial engine aircraft like a DC-3, or a Connie (how AWESOME would that be!), C-54, C-46 or something along those lines just for fun. I am also thinking about flying the twin comanche to Europe and back someday with my wife. Maybe I'll fly the Bearhawk to Alaska when it is completed too, who knows.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE to fly! Other than my wife and family, it is the only thing I am truly passionate about. I am planning on flying for the rest of my life even if I'm not flying for a living but I'm just going to take it easy for right now and have fun with aviation and not get stressed out over how long it is taking to build time or what the aviation job market looks like. I would like to fly for a living, but after taking a look at what I have, instead of what I don't have, I've realized that I don't have it so bad and I can really have alot of fun with airplanes from where I'm at right now.

[jerrywhite7]

Originally Posted by modernicarus

I would like to fly for a living, but after taking a look at what I have, instead of what I don't have, I've realized that I don't have it so bad and I can really have alot of fun with airplanes from where I'm at right now.

Sounds pretty smart . .but still . go for your dreams. Yes, you can basicly fly all the time and not get paid for it and still being "living the dream"!

Good for you . . . these post are great, because they are much like an aviation jurnal. Keep it all up! Never give up . . . and there is no set way to get into a right seat. . . if you find a way that works for you . .DO IT!

[JusticeAK]

Originally Posted by modernicarus

I am also going to get typed in some large radial engine aircraft like a DC-3, or a Connie (how AWESOME would that be!), C-54, C-46 or something along those lines just for fun. I am also thinking about flying the twin comanche to Europe and back someday with my wife. Maybe I'll fly the Bearhawk to Alaska when it is completed too, who knows.

I know some guys up here in alaska that will set you up with a type rating in their DC-3, Just be prepared to spend a lot of money.

[modernicarus]

That's cool, but it'll be YEARS from now before I do something like that (unless my wife surprises me with a gift). I'm not in a hurry.

I'm just going to relax while taking the time to stop and "smell the daisies", be in the moment, and enjoy one thing at a time. I am slowing my life way down so it doesn't just flash me by like the past 40 years have done.

I have a kid that is a senior in High School this year, it seems like just yesterday he was in 2nd grade with a big toothless grin and a cowboy hat. My 20th wedding anniversary was this past August and we didn't celebrate it because I was too busy. I'm through being that guy.

I know this thread has gone WAY off topic now, I apologize for that. But it has really helped me realize what is really important and what isn't. Maybe one day I will fly for a living, maybe I won't. I WANT to fly for a living, but I don't HAVE to fly for a living. Either way though, I will be flying and it will be on my terms.

[jerrywhite7]

Originally Posted by modernicarus

I have a kid that is a senior in High School this year, it seems like just yesterday he was in 2nd grade with a big toothless grin and a cowboy hat. My 20th wedding anniversary was this past August and we didn't celebrate it because I was too busy. I'm through being that guy.


I WANT to fly for a living, but I don't HAVE to fly for a living. Either way though, I will be flying and it will be on my terms.

Good stuff!!!! That is the stuff that is important in life!!!!! Why give up that stuff for a "job"??