What to charge?

[mooneyguy]

I'm curious if any one on here fly's for a private individual? I have a guy who has a Mooney and a twin Cessna who has approached me to fly for him. What he would like is to have me on a retainer pay me a rate for 20-30hrs per month (this would be times 2 since there is a business partner who also would like to fly 20/30 per month). Anything over the 20/30 hours would be paid per hour.
The flying would be regional. 200-400 miles. Possible flights into mexico (not very often).
I’m curious how others are paid, and what other "rules" are established. e.g. additional charge for overnights, per diem etc.

Any one with this experience, i would appreciate hearing about it. Thank You

[BillErvin]

Who's got the Popcorn... Sorry Tim couldn't resist

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by BillErvin

Who's got the Popcorn... Sorry Tim couldn't resist

I'll start it off:

Heck, all that free flight time - I'd do it for free!

[KLB]

Heck I'd do it for 5.15 an hour!

Seriously though. I'll ask a buddy of mine who does contract flying what he'd charge. I think I'd try to negotiate 300 dollars a day + expenses (including hotel, food, and transportation).

Where's Citationkid when you need him?

[MFT1Air]

I'm curious what types of responses THIS thread is going to generate.

[mooneyguy]

A serious response would be appreciated....talking to you Bill...just had to stir the pot didn't you...

In all seriousness, I'm sure there are others who work for (or have) a private individual, flying their plane. I'm sure it may not be as lucrative as flying a Lear for a big Corp, but I don’t wanna (wont) sell my soul for a job!

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by mooneyguy

A serious response would be appreciated....talking to you Bill...just had to stir the pot didn't you...

In all seriousness, I'm sure there are others who work for (or have) a private individual, flying their plane. I'm sure it may not be as lucrative as flying a Lear for a big Corp, but I don’t wanna (wont) sell my soul for a job!

Give it a couple of posts and you'll get a diverse viewpoint. You can then pick a plan that affords everyone a "win-win."

[Stone Cold]

If they are wanting you on retainer at all times, I would go for a monthly salary, with per diem for overnights. I don't know what a good monthly rate is for this type of flying, but it should be something worth it to you. If you just do the daily rate, and they slow their flying, then you are hosed for the month(s) they do not fly. If you do decide to do daily rates, though, then make sure it is in your contract for all days to be paid equally (i.e., no 1/2 pay for your "vacation" in Mexico).

Make sure you get whatever your agreement is in writing. DO NOT go on a hand shake and verbal agreement. You will lose in the end. For per diem, average pay is $100/ day while on the road and $125+ for international flights. Negotiate what you can with them, but that seems to be the norm.

Make sure your contract has in it what level of hotels you are expecting to stay in...usually 4 or 5 stars is acceptable. If you know the operation and know they are staying in Motel 6's then of course don't ask for 4-5 star hotels.

I'm sure others will chime in. Good luck and let us know how it goes. Hopefully, this thread doesn't end up like some others on here...

[BillErvin]

Originally Posted by mooneyguy

A serious response would be appreciated....talking to you Bill...just had to stir the pot didn't you...

In all seriousness, I'm sure there are others who work for (or have) a private individual, flying their plane. I'm sure it may not be as lucrative as flying a Lear for a big Corp, but I don’t wanna (wont) sell my soul for a job!

Its a curse man

[CK]

Originally Posted by mooneyguy

I'm curious if any one on here fly's for a private individual? I have a guy who has a Mooney and a twin Cessna who has approached me to fly for him. What he would like is to have me on a retainer pay me a rate for 20-30hrs per month (this would be times 2 since there is a business partner who also would like to fly 20/30 per month). Anything over the 20/30 hours would be paid per hour.
The flying would be regional. 200-400 miles. Possible flights into mexico (not very often).
I’m curious how others are paid, and what other "rules" are established. e.g. additional charge for overnights, per diem etc.

Any one with this experience, i would appreciate hearing about it. Thank You

I would charge $300 per day with a $900 per week cap and a 10 day per month guarentee. This way neither of you get screwed. They don't have to pay $2100 a week if you fly every day, but you get a few dollars every week incase they don't fly. They take care of all expenses. If I am put on a retainer they get priority over any other flying. I would also be willing to take care of managing the aircraft. I would not charge each person seperately. Who ever flies the most pays the most for the month.

Let me know if you have any questions,

Alex.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by Citationkid

I would charge $300 per day with a $900 per week cap and a 10 day per month guarentee. This way neither of you get screwed. They don't have to pay $2100 a week if you fly every day, but you get a few dollars every week incase they don't fly. They take care of all expenses. If I am put on a retainer they get priority over any other flying. I would also be willing to take care of managing the aircraft. I would not charge each person seperately. Who ever flies the most pays the most for the month.

Let me know if you have any questions,

Alex.

I won't cross thread post, but I'll ask you to please explain your rationale if you would about the quote you provided. Personally, I believe you high balled a number. . .but I might not be looking as aspects of your quote that, from your experiences, you could provide explanation.

For example, if we did the math. . .$900 a week GUARANTEED is approximately $40 - $46K a year. Now, for a single engine Mooney or a light twin. . .any and everyone who just finished their commercial ticket would jump on an opportunity like that. . .really! Is that truly realistic for a job like this? Heck, the plane's monthly payment borders around that amount for a Mooney. That's not sound business practice if you ask me. . .but I'm asking you.

Further clarification. . .he did say the most he'd fly would approximate 20/30 hours a month and anything over 30 would be an hourly surcharge. . .so, 30/4 is approximately 8 hrs a week (high ball) (numbers aren't right if you're talking 400nm in a Mooney or a twin). . .which is approximately 2 or 3 flights a week for 3 hours max. That's approximately $600 - $900 a week. We're talking over $100 an hour ball park.

CFIs would give up their day jobs for a gig like this. . .

[CK]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

For example, if we did the math. . .$900 a week GUARANTEED is approximately $40 - $46K a year. Now, for a single engine Mooney or a light twin. . .any and everyone who just finished their commercial ticket would jump on an opportunity like that. . .really! Is that truly realistic for a job like this? Heck, the plane's monthly payment borders around that amount for a Mooney. That's not sound business practice if you ask me. . .but I'm asking you.

$900 a week is the cap or the most he could make in a week. The guarenteed money is 10 days per month, which would be $3000 per month or $36,000 per year, which is not very high. That comes out to $18,000 per year per partner.

Further clarification. . .he did say the most he'd fly would approximate 20/30 hours a month and anything over 30 would be an hourly surcharge. . .so, 30/4 is approximately 8 hrs a week (high ball) (numbers aren't right if you're talking 400nm in a Mooney or a twin). . .which is approximately 2 or 3 flights a week for 3 hours max. That's approximately $600 - $900 a week. We're talking over $100 an hour ball park.

If you are going to charge by the hour you would want to charge by the time away from home, not the flight time. This isn't the airlines. He could do a 100 mile trip, sit for two days and fly home. That would be two hours of pay for two days of work by your logic. That doesn't sound like good business for the pilot does it If he does three flights a week he would probally be looking at about eight hours per day of duty time, which is what his pay would be based off of. At $900 per week and 32 hours of work that is about $28 per hour, which is by no means a lot.


Alex.

[JDE]

I second going for the monthly salary. I'm a salaried employee and I flew, on average, 35 hours/month last year. From the information you posted, it looks like you're looking at 40-60 hours a month, which is a healthy amount of flying. Are they going to put you in charge of managing the airplanes as well? Scheduling maintenance, school, etc? Granted, it's not as extensive on a Mooney and Twin Cessna as it would be a Learjet, but those things still need to be done (although I have no idea if Twin Cessna school is required for insurance). If you go the contract route, be sure to get enough money to cover your insurance and school if the insurance company does indeed require it.

[PoeMan]

Go for the salary with a set number of hours/days then if you go over that, it will be hourly or daily overtime/bonus...

As a Full Time Contractor myself, if you do just the day rate or hourly rate, there WILL be a month when you don't make a dime and it hurts!

IMHO
I'd do a monthly salary for a set number of days then have a rate for each additional day (somewhere in the $200-300 range as they are already paying you but don't screw yourself on a 25 day month, that's a lot of work and you deserve to be paid such)...

The salaray is to manage the plane (maint, hangar, shop for best fuel, etc) and to fly say 10-14 days a month or whatever you figure. Then add the "bonus" pay as an "overtime" if you will.


WHAT EVER YOU DO...
GET IT IN WRITING with BOTH partners! Before any flying!

Make sure expenses are covered; hotels, meals, anything you can think of. Use the "but not limited to" clause in your contract. As long as its related to you flying the plane (or managing the plane) they need to pay for it.

As far as per diem, $100 -$150 seems kind of high for pistons and high even for a lot of Jet operators. $75 can get you a good day's food in most areas of the US, more $ for Mexico. But if its just REGIONAL flying then you can be the judge as to how much you need to eat in your area.

Hope if helps. PM if you have any questions, I'm not on here too much...

- Poe

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by Citationkid

$900 a week is the cap or the most he could make in a week. The guarenteed money is 10 days per month, which would be $3000 per month or $36,000 per year, which is not very high. That comes out to $18,000 per year per partner.




If you are going to charge by the hour you would want to charge by the time away from home, not the flight time. This isn't the airlines. He could do a 100 mile trip, sit for two days and fly home. That would be two hours of pay for two days of work by your logic. That doesn't sound like good business for the pilot does it If he does three flights a week he would probally be looking at about eight hours per day of duty time, which is what his pay would be based off of. At $900 per week and 32 hours of work that is about $28 per hour, which is by no means a lot.


Alex.

OK, so. . .you're saying a "less than" 300 TT commercial pilot with less than 6 months of training - flying a Mooney - about 35 hours a month should start at 36K a year. Interesting.

Needless to say, I'd disagree. I believe he or she is overpaid. I wouldn't say that if say . . .the person to add to simply being a CSEL/CMEL:

1. Is degreed, especially if his degree is either aviation related or can positively impact the owner's business.

2. Has some other specialized training, such as Flight Safety or SIMCOM.

3. Has more diverse flying experience: i.e. - multiple airplanes other than say a Cessna 172 or Duchess, international flights, etc.

4. Signficant instrument time; CFI or CFII.

OK, for me, you're inching closer to $36K. . .again, which is a start.

[Stone Cold]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

OK, so. . .you're saying a "less than" 300 TT commercial pilot with less than 6 months of training - flying a Mooney - about 35 hours a month should start at 36K a year. Interesting.

Needless to say, I'd disagree. I believe he or she is overpaid. I wouldn't say that if say . . .the person to add to simply being a CSEL/CMEL:

1. Is degreed, especially if his degree is either aviation related or can positively impact the owner's business.

2. Has some other specialized training, such as Flight Safety or SIMCOM.

3. Has more diverse flying experience: i.e. - multiple airplanes other than say a Cessna 172 or Duchess, international flights, etc.

4. Signficant instrument time; CFI or CFII.

OK, for me, you're inching closer to $36K. . .again, which is a start.

See, your argument is he's not qualified for the position, not the pay issue itself. For managing 2 airplanes, and being on call the whole month, and being the sole pilot, he should be paid accordingly. Personally, I would not manage 2 airplanes and be on call as the sole pilot forever for $36K. It would have to be quite a bit more.

Since he has a huge learning curve, then yes, he needs to make sure he knows what he is getting in to. To say he should undercut what the services rendered would/should cost due to him being low time, that is doing a disservice to him and everybody following him. I'm trying to avoid all the cliches about undercutting the industry, lowering the bar, etc., but what you are suggesting is based on all your government experience. This is not a lowest bidder operation, or shouldn't be anyways.

[JDE]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

OK, so. . .you're saying a "less than" 300 TT commercial pilot with less than 6 months of training - flying a Mooney - about 35 hours a month should start at 36K a year. Interesting.

Needless to say, I'd disagree. I believe he or she is overpaid. I wouldn't say that if say . . .the person to add to simply being a CSEL/CMEL:

1. Is degreed, especially if his degree is either aviation related or can positively impact the owner's business.

2. Has some other specialized training, such as Flight Safety or SIMCOM.

3. Has more diverse flying experience: i.e. - multiple airplanes other than say a Cessna 172 or Duchess, international flights, etc.

4. Signficant instrument time; CFI or CFII.

OK, for me, you're inching closer to $36K. . .again, which is a start.

With all your experience in the corporate world of aviation, what kind of money should this guy make then? This is exactly what caused the big argument in the other thread. Why should he sell himself short?

Experience is worth a lot, but judgment is worth A LOT more in my opinion. I've flown with guys with 20,000+ hours who have some horrible judgment, and quite frankly it amazes me that they've made it as far as they have without killing themselves. Besides, many Part 91 corporate pilots are hired for their personality, character, and integrity more than they are their flight experience (within reason of course). Go read the latest Professional Pilot Magazine which profiles the Valero Energy flight department. FO hired on at around 1000 hours TT in the G450/550. Do you think they low balled him on pay because of his low time? Highly doubtful.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by Stone Cold

See, your argument is he's not qualified for the position, not the pay issue itself. For managing 2 airplanes, and being on call the whole month, and being the sole pilot, he should be paid accordingly. Personally, I would not manage 2 airplanes and be on call as the sole pilot forever for $36K. It would have to be quite a bit more.

Since he has a huge learning curve, then yes, he needs to make sure he knows what he is getting in to. To say he should undercut what the services rendered would/should cost due to him being low time, that is doing a disservice to him and everybody following him. I'm trying to avoid all the cliches about undercutting the industry, lowering the bar, etc., but what you are suggesting is based on all your government experience. This is not a lowest bidder operation, or shouldn't be anyways.

Well, I'm not saying he's not qualified. I'm saying the number I'm going to offer a potential pilot will depend upon his or her experience, background and scope of operation/activities he or she will perform. I can't say if at 36 hours a month if that's considered full time employment or part time. Honestly, I don't know. Personally, it sounds high. I would enjoy a perspective from someone who would contradict my perception. That way I would better understand the justification for $36K.

He has a Mooney. There's also a light twin. At $36K, I would fly myself. If I were unable, I would ask a potential pilot to justify the pay being requested be it $36K. . .or $19k. That's my perspective.

Oh, and the pilot? More points for having an A&P as well.

[CK]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

OK, so. . .you're saying a "less than" 300 TT commercial pilot with less than 6 months of training - flying a Mooney - about 35 hours a month should start at 36K a year. Interesting.

Yes. $36,000 a year is not a lot of money for a profesional pilot. Like my last post pointed out, it only amounts to about $28 per hour. If they don't want to pay that large of a retainer that's fine, they just don't get priority over other flying. I like JDE's question, what do you think he should get paid?

Alex.

[Stone Cold]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

Well, I'm not saying he's not qualified. I'm saying the number I'm going to offer a potential pilot will depend upon his or her experience, background and scope of operation/activities he or she will perform. I can't say if at 36 hours a month if that's considered full time employment or part time. Honestly, I don't know. Personally, it sounds high. I would enjoy a perspective from someone who would contradict my perception. That way I would better understand the justification for $36K.

He has a Mooney. There's also a light twin. At $36K, I would fly myself. If I were unable, I would ask a potential pilot to justify the pay being requested be it $36K. . .or $19k. That's my perspective.

Oh, and the pilot? More points for having an A&P as well.

That's what you would do if you had these airplanes and needed to go some place. Apparently, they are wanting a full time pilot to fly their airplanes to get them from point A to point B with points C, D and whatever other point they want, in there, safely. That is what I am basing this off of.

I don't care if he flies 2 hours a month or 100, if he is their pilot, then he is considered full time. Period. My last rotation, out of 20 days, I flew 2.5 hours and had 1 overnight. I still received my full pay and everything my contract entitles. Why, since I didn't fly very much should I get paid this? Because I was there for the company and only the company. This is what a full time contract pilot does.

I'm just glad there aren't more owners with your attitude out there. It's hard enough to be paid a decent wage out there.

Oh, and if you want an A&P, go find one. I don't turn wrenches, I fly airplanes. Hats off to those who have both and do both. I know quite a few of them are abused, and don't fly as much as they might want to due to being in the hangar fixing airplanes.

I also like the question asked....what do you think a pilot, managing 2 airplanes (doesn't matter if it's a glider or Learjet, both have inspections, etc., to keep up with), and flying both for 2 different guys, on an on-call basis 24/7, should be paid. Don't think about mentioning TT or anything else, as that is not relevant.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by Citationkid

Yes. $36,000 a year is not a lot of money for a profesional pilot. Like my last post pointed out, it only amounts to about $28 per hour. If they don't want to pay that large of a retainer that's fine, they just don't get priority over other flying. I like JDE's question, what do you think he should get paid?

Alex.

OK, if it comes out to $28 an hour, that makes sense to me. I didn't do the complete math to reach that conclusion. Also, given the fact, for a first timer. . .$28 doesn't sound high to me with a commercial ticket.

[TangoBravo]

$24.000/year = Walmart Assistant Manager.
Lot's of drama- yes, but no buttcrunching minima instrument operations.
+ Benefits

$52.000/year = Manager Service Department in a Car Dealership.
Even more drama- yes, but nothing that endangers or holds responsibility for other peoples lives if the mechanics have not been selected by a criminal.
+ Benefits

Well, I'm not saying he's not qualified. I'm saying the number I'm going to offer a potential pilot will depend upon his or her experience, background and scope of operation/activities he or she will perform. I can't say if at 36 hours a month if that's considered full time employment or part time. Honestly, I don't know. Personally, it sounds high. I would enjoy a perspective from someone who would contradict my perception. That way I would better understand the justification for $36K.

Yes you did. You called the pilot a 300 hour pilot with less than 6 months of training. You do not realize that private and corporate owners have their own motivations for running a Mooney or Twin and that there is no set standard... for all I know they could pay him $120K if they loved him enough. If he in fact had only 300 hours he may not be flying the twin single pilot anyways - last time I checked these airplanes needed insurance too. Unless you have significant time in type thats going to be a fun game to watch @300 TT.

To the OP: keep in mind that there are people with many more hours and much lower motives waiting for a gig like this. Talk to the owners and find out if their first pencil insults you. If it does, let them open it up to the market. I assure you, it will be gone in no time.

If not, pull out your calculator and see where you stand. Heck you learned to be a Commercial Pilot - maybe it's time to take responsibility for your life and find out if you can make a buck on your own. Your life is your business. It's the "MOONEYGUY, Inc." You are the CEO. Act like it.

[cool92092]

MFT1Air to argue this from a business perspective, as you have mentioned you feel it is not sound business practice to high-ball, why do you feel it is a good business practice to low-ball yourself? When a contract gets written up, it is first negotiated. If the pilot asks for $400 per day and the owner feels it is too much he will try to negotiate a lower figure. This at least gives the pilot a higher price to start with and leaves room to shave off dollars in the process of negotiation. If you start off low then you are putting yourself at a disadvantage when it comes contract negotiation time. Why should the contractor (regardless of profession) seek to accomodate the client's interests ahead of his own? Just from a business man's standpoint it makes sense for the person offering services to come in with a high figure and for the person paying for services to come in with a low figure and best case both parties meet half way.

For the OP: sit down and run some various senarios through your head that could occur in which you would get the short end of the stick and make sure your contract stipulates some kind of protection against it. You may also want to consider being over worked. Lets say the owner needs you to fly with him for a three week trip in which you are flying everyday. Maybe there should be a clause that limits your days on without a day of rest. Just something to think about, and good luck with the offer! I'm jealous.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by Stone Cold

That's what you would do if you had these airplanes and needed to go some place. Apparently, they are wanting a full time pilot to fly their airplanes to get them from point A to point B with points C, D and whatever other point they want, in there, safely. That is what I am basing this off of.

I don't care if he flies 2 hours a month or 100, if he is their pilot, then he is considered full time. Period. My last rotation, out of 20 days, I flew 2.5 hours and had 1 overnight. I still received my full pay and everything my contract entitles. Why, since I didn't fly very much should I get paid this? Because I was there for the company and only the company. This is what a full time contract pilot does.

I'm just glad there aren't more owners with your attitude out there. It's hard enough to be paid a decent wage out there.

Oh, and if you want an A&P, go find one. I don't turn wrenches, I fly airplanes. Hats off to those who have both and do both. I know quite a few of them are abused, and don't fly as much as they might want to due to being in the hangar fixing airplanes.

I also like the question asked....what do you think a pilot, managing 2 airplanes (doesn't matter if it's a glider or Learjet, both have inspections, etc., to keep up with), and flying both for 2 different guys, on an on-call basis 24/7, should be paid. Don't think about mentioning TT or anything else, as that is not relevant.

Hey, I'll not argue any of your points. Why? Rationale is superb.

My last rotation, out of 20 days, I flew 2.5 hours and had 1 overnight. I still received my full pay and everything my contract entitles. Why, since I didn't fly very much should I get paid this? Because I was there for the company and only the company. This is what a full time contract pilot does.

Kinda synonymous with fireman, right? I'm there when you need me even when there IS no fire. No argument out of me here.

Oh, and if you want an A&P, go find one. I don't turn wrenches, I fly airplanes. Hats off to those who have both and do both. I know quite a few of them are abused, and don't fly as much as they might want to due to being in the hangar fixing airplanes.

Perhaps, but understand you have pilots who have the potential to be abused as well. . .in any organization. As you said, if I wanted one, I'd go find one. . .which I would seriously consider if the candidates' resumes deem it appropriate to perhaps hire a pilot/A&P. Again, it's potentially cost effective to do so. . .and yes, I'd expect to pay the individual more if he/she brought that added utility to the table.

OK, help me. . .and I'm not trying to be flippant or sarcastic when I say this. You mentioned "managing" an airplane. I'm not one to attempt to compare aircraft, but we're talking about a single engine high performance airplane and a twin (I forget what-twin Cessna?) So, what is it to managing an airplane or two. . .particularly two general aviation aircraft vice say a larger more complex series of aircraft?

[mooneyguy]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

Well, I'm not saying he's not qualified. I'm saying the number I'm going to offer a potential pilot will depend upon his or her experience, background and scope of operation/activities he or she will perform. I can't say if at 36 hours a month if that's considered full time employment or part time. Honestly, I don't know. Personally, it sounds high. I would enjoy a perspective from someone who would contradict my perception. That way I would better understand the justification for $36K.

He has a Mooney. There's also a light twin. At $36K, I would fly myself. If I were unable, I would ask a potential pilot to justify the pay being requested be it $36K. . .or $19k. That's my perspective.
Oh, and the pilot? More points for having an A&P as well.

I guess one can assume you are not the business owner of a multi million dollar company who's time is worth way more then $30 per hour. A lesson I learned a long time ago, don’t do $10 an hour clerical work when you should be out making $300 hour doing business!

Right now this guy is driving himself as much as ten hours one way to do business. While he’s sitting in his car he is not getting much if any business done! Ok, so he owns his own plane, Why spend 2 hours pre-flighting getting the plane ready, then making the flight, then another hour or two post flight when you can make a call walk out to the plane get in a go?

If he can make 4K in a day why should he be at the airport looking at log books, scheduling service, or anything aircraft related. Have you ever owned a plane? I have owned 3. I can assure you If you manage your own plane the service time usually adds up to more then flight time! A guy making just 1 Mil a year makes $3800 per day! if he loses 9.5 work days he just lost $36000

I appreciate all the replies with tips on how to handle this.
My initial thought is to propose a base rate of 3000 per month. This gets them a full time pilot for up to 60 hours flight time (with negotiated hard days off). It also gives them a full time manager. Who will handle all maintenance, and day to day activities plane related.
If the flight time goes over 60 hrs it will be billed out hourly. Overnights if required they will pay for room, and $50 per diem. All expenses airplane related will be paid by the owners!
this is just rough draft, but this is what I am thinking for now...as someone mentioned I know there are a lot of people who would come in behind me and offer themselves for nothing, but personally I will not put on a skirt and go stand on the street corner!

Thanks again for the helpful replies and would appreciate more useful feedback!

p.s. the mooney is not the primary A/C actually it will probably be sold, but I would manage it until it is sold. The twin cessna is/will be the primary aircraft...and no I have not stated what type twin cessna, and wont just yet.