What to charge?

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by JDE

With all your experience in the corporate world of aviation, what kind of money should this guy make then? This is exactly what caused the big argument in the other thread. Why should he sell himself short?

Jason,

I don't know where you're going here, but let me attempt to understand your perspective.

Firstly, I never said for anyone to sell themselves short. If you infer anything from my posts, it is to get the best you can from any opportunity available, but if it's the only thing out there, and you're struggling to survive, take it. The argument is a job with money even short term is better than no job at all.

Originally Posted by JDE

Experience is worth a lot, but judgment is worth A LOT more in my opinion. I've flown with guys with 20,000+ hours who have some horrible judgment, and quite frankly it amazes me that they've made it as far as they have without killing themselves. Besides, many Part 91 corporate pilots are hired for their personality, character, and integrity more than they are their flight experience (within reason of course). Go read the latest Professional Pilot Magazine which profiles the Valero Energy flight department. FO hired on at around 1000 hours TT in the G450/550. Do you think they low balled him on pay because of his low time? Highly doubtful.

(I'm thinking maybe you're thinking I'm naive or stupid, but let me breath first.)

Your statement, as it relates to experience, as you already know is rhetorical. Hello? Numerous deceased pilots with many hours of flight time are listed in the NTSB final reports having made errors in judgement which contributed to their demise, so I know you're NOT telling me to take experience into consider, are you? It is simply a part of the whole person pilot, right? Oh, yes. . .in your aforementioned comment, you addressed those same positive traits. So, we agree.

Originally Posted by JDE

Go read the latest Professional Pilot Magazine which profiles the Valero Energy flight department.

Are you asking me to compare the flight DEPARTMENT of a major oil corporation to a business owner with two airplanes? OK, I'll bite; no, the oil company paid the FO a very hefty salary with benefits. The numerous FAs, the chief mechanics, the dispatchers are also being paid very well too. I concur with you; they were not low balled. As a matter of fact, they've probably raised the bar for many others. . .which is a good thing.

Are we in agreement there? But let's back to the Mooney. That's closer to earth/reality for me.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by mooneyguy

I guess one can assume you are not the business owner of a multi million dollar company who's time is worth way more then $30 per hour. A lesson I learned a long time ago, don’t do $10 an hour clerical work when you should be out making $300 hour doing business!

Right now this guy is driving himself as much as ten hours one way to do business. While he’s sitting in his car he is not getting much if any business done! Ok, so he owns his own plane, Why spend 2 hours pre-flighting getting the plane ready, then making the flight, then another hour or two post flight when you can make a call walk out to the plane get in a go?

If he can make 4K in a day why should he be at the airport looking at log books, scheduling service, or anything aircraft related. Have you ever owned a plane? I have owned 3. I can assure you If you manage your own plane the service time usually adds up to more then flight time! A guy making just 1 Mil a year makes $3800 per day! if he loses 9.5 work days he just lost $36000

I appreciate all the replies with tips on how to handle this.
My initial thought is to propose a base rate of 3000 per month. This gets them a full time pilot for up to 60 hours flight time (with negotiated hard days off). It also gives them a full time manager. Who will handle all maintenance, and day to day activities plane related.
If the flight time goes over 60 hrs it will be billed out hourly. Overnights if required they will pay for room, and $50 per diem. All expenses airplane related will be paid by the owners!
this is just rough draft, but this is what I am thinking for now...as someone mentioned I know there are a lot of people who would come in behind me and offer themselves for nothing, but personally I will not put on a skirt and go stand on the street corner!

Thanks again for the helpful replies and would appreciate more useful feedback!

p.s. the mooney is not the primary A/C actually it will probably be sold, but I would manage it until it is sold. The twin cessna is/will be the primary aircraft...and no I have not stated what type twin cessna, and wont just yet.

Mooneyguy,

I am not one to argue with you any of your points addressed above. Let me bring it up a notch and be more philosophical and summarize what you just addressed above.

The owner makes $4000 a day; he can hire you for $3000 a month and not have to perform menial aviation related tasks. It's beneath you. Okay. . .

A business owner of a multimillion dollar organization made his millions NOT by cavalierly throwing away or spending money just because they have it; they made their "profits" by providing sound, smart and most importantly analytical business acumen and practices.

You've probably read many a Flying magazine over your aviation career, and you have numerous examples of multimillionares flying themselves, so your financial justification of saving the owner money lacks merit. Perhaps if the multimillion became a corporate jet or whatever. . .okay, having a corporate pilot might be a sound business practice. . . but right now? Maybe. . .or maybe not?

If you're going to justify $3000 a month by saying what you quoted previously, my recommendation is you support that number with something more substantive.

PS - kinda wonder if he has a cook and cleaning lady. . .chauffeur, etc.

[Ian J]

Having read through this thread with interest, I fail to see the problem. You're worth what you can negotiate, plain and simple.

I personally wouldn't consider a contract job for less than 75k/ year.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by Citationkid

Yes. $36,000 a year is not a lot of money for a profesional pilot. Like my last post pointed out, it only amounts to about $28 per hour. If they don't want to pay that large of a retainer that's fine, they just don't get priority over other flying. I like JDE's question, what do you think he should get paid?

Alex.

Alex,

Honestly, I don't know. . .I can't, to be honest, provide you with what I would perceive to be a salary range. Whatever the number is however, I would be curious what considerations and factors went into deciding that dollar amount. That's what, I suppose, everyone is asking now. I understood your number. Made sense. . .still sounded low at $28 an hour given the fact FBO CFIs make $30 and above in many places, but I thought they split that with the aircraft owner. There are other locations at the universities where more can be made.

If I were arguing a position to support what I request, I guess my insight would be a few of the universities that have salaried instructors. I'd start there as my low number and work my way up. Sure, there'd be more factors to consider, but I believe my baseline would start there.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Having read through this thread with interest, I fail to see the problem. You're worth what you can negotiate, plain and simple.

I personally wouldn't consider a contract job for less than 75k/ year.

This, from someone who had a jumpmaster PUSH me out of a reliable functioning machine!

[JDE]

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by JDE

Wait, wait!!! Here's my favorites!!

TOP RATED FAMILY GUY QUOTES!!!!

Peter (after Lois tells him he's childish): "If I'm a child that means you're a pedophile, and I'll be damned if i'm going stand here and take this from a pervert."

AND MY PERSONAL FAVORITE

Auctioner: Our first item is a pair of panties confiscated from a prostitute.
Quagmire: Fifty bucks.
Auctioner: She had nine STDs.
Quagmire: Forty-five bucks.
Auctioner: And when we caught her she wet herself.
Quagmire: Fifty bucks.

OK, I can start being serious now!

[BillErvin]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

This, from someone who had a jumpmaster PUSH me out of a reliable functioning machine!

So your the one

[BillErvin]

Hey Tim for what its worth, I did an average of the 670 conus GSA per diem rates....$50.00 Good guess

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Having read through this thread with interest, I fail to see the problem. You're worth what you can negotiate, plain and simple.
of
I personally wouldn't consider a contract job for less than 75k/ year.

Dang it, Ian - I need to work much harder to be as succinct as possible. Although, my reason for the questions is I am curious what others use as negotiating bargaining techniques/tools to be the effective negotiator. We all know simply asking is not enough.

. . .and as we also know, we can bargain/negotiate ourselves totally out of a job as well. Does that mean the person hired is a lesser qualified pilot because of his or her pay?

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

Dang it, Ian - I need to work much harder to be as succinct as possible. Although, my reason for the questions is I am curious what others use as negotiating bargaining techniques/tools to be the effective negotiator. We all know simply asking is not enough.

. . .and as we also know, we can bargain/negotiate ourselves totally out of a job as well. Does that mean the person hired is a lesser qualified pilot because of his or her pay?

I have no idea... I've never applied to or negotiated for a contract job before. And I'm not sure where I got the 75k figure...


... man, those Jimmies and Cokes were good last night!

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by Ian J

I have no idea... I've never applied to or negotiated for a contract job before. And I'm not sure where I got the 75k figure...


... man, those Jimmies and Cokes were good last night!

Hey, I went to Pappasitos last night for a party in preparation for the next shuttle launch.

It was fajitas, mojitos, margaritas, and micheladas. Life was grand. Hey, are you familiar with Tim Kopra?

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

Hey, I went to Pappasitos last night for a party in preparation for the next shuttle launch.

It was fajitas, mojitos, margaritas, and micheladas. Life was grand. Hey, are you familiar with Tim Kopra?

I know he's an astronaut and that's it really. Why... did you drink with him?

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by Ian J

I know he's an astronaut and that's it really. Why... did you drink with him?

Yep, he's on my training team. I was wondering if he was in Campbell the same time you were. You know you "Rucker boys" bond closely.

http://www.goarmy.com/home/vw/index.jsp

After the intro thing…click on the plus sign in the clouds to get to a commercial that Kopra made for the army.

[Ian J]

Very cool!

I was at Campbell from 2001-2005.

[roundout]

Now here's a thread worth participating in. Sounds like you've got a pretty unique opportunity, so congrats on that, first and foremost.

A couple questions: you say you're on retainer - does that mean you can't seek outside employment when you're not flying for them? If you can't, then obviously your pay here needs to be high enough to live off of. If so, it gets a little more complicated.

I think 300/day with a minimum guarantee of 10-12 days + per diem, all expenses, and benefits would be appropriate. If they don't offer benefits and you can't get them elsewhere, the pay needs to go up. Also, consider days off and QOL (and here's something that MFT and Propilot probably wouldn't expect me to say). You may have to be willing to take a hit in pay if the QOL is very very high. If the trips are mostly day trips with few overnights, you probably won't be able to command as high a rate. I'm currently in this situation myself; I could probably command more on the open market, but usually only have about 20 RONs a year, mostly day trips and benefits. Before anybody asks, no, I do not make 19k a year, quite a bit more. But, in my opinion, you must factor this in.

If you're managing 2 airplanes (or 1 if the Mooney goes), you need more money than 300/day. In that case, I would shoot for a base salary (insert dollar figure here) plus a spiff for every flight hour flown + per diem and expenses. Are you cleaning the aircraft or do they have a detailing service? Again, adjust your rate accordingly.

All said, I suspect this job is probably worth $55k or so. If it's down to one airplane it's probably $50k. Maybe a bit less if the benefits are good. Aim high. Good luck.

[Douglas]

I knew two guys that did this and one flew a Bonanza the other flew a warrior (nicest warrior ever). They both were in the 30,000 range salary, no matter how much they flew.
They were allowed to flight instruct on the side too, but when he wanted to go, they went.

[wanabe]

FWIW, I have a friend who flies and manages a PC12 and C421 for two different owners. He is paid $5500 per month to fly and manage both airplanes. He has a company card to cover all expenses.

This looks like a real good opportunity, good luck.

[Keebler]

For this airplane:

$300 a day regardles flying or sitting away from home on the road.

All expenses while on the road: no limit as long as it's legit and not abused
Make sure you have a company card for the expenses on the road ie.. nothing is reimbursuble it's all put on thier card

20-30 hrs a month means how many trips? I'm estimating 3 hours a trip so that in the ball park of 7 day trips a month.

I think I'd ask for $2000 a month gurantee to be on retainer. 2000/300= 6.6 days a month on the road. If he flys more than that then he pays you 2000 plus your day rate.

That's my initial offer.