Citation Type Rating

AV8R_N8 · September 25th, 2003, 22:20

Hello. I am considering getting a type rating for a Cessna Citation, for the experience, and also to make me more marketable to the airlines. I was looking at the program that ATP has. Its a 4 day program. 1st day is ground, 2nd is ground, sim, & flight. 3rd is ground, sim, & flight. and 4th is a checkride. They send you Training material before you start for you to go over. Being where I am at right now. Commercial Multi-Engine Instrument Pilot, with about 550 hours, and 100 hours multi, will it be pretty difficult to do such a rating without any previous Turbine time? I am pretty determined in aviation, and when it comes to learning something new, I could do it all day and all night. But the thing that concerns me the most is stepping up from a Beechcraft Duchess that cruises at about 140 knots straight to a Cessna Citation which I am assuming has an approach speed somewhere close to 140 knots. Anyone have any comments, tips? Thanks in advance.

Eagle · September 26th, 2003, 05:13

unless you have a job lined up do not waste your money. I have plenty of time in a CE-500 as a FO and I doubt the type rating would be a walk in th park for me. So with about 500 hrs tt you may bite off more than you can chew.

C650CPT · September 27th, 2003, 09:37

AV8R N8
Since you posted this three different times I will answer you three times: Don't do it, Don't do it, Don't do it.
It serves absolutely no purpose at this point in your career, except ego. In fact it would be considered very negatively by experienced and potential employers. If some one was offering you a job today based on you haveing a type, I still would say Don't do it. A professional organization should never require this ( I have the same opionion about south west airlines requireing a 737 type rateing for thier new hires, its BS). The Bible has a proverb about a fool and his money soon being parted, don't be a fool.

TravelinMan · September 27th, 2003, 20:19

I am 100% positive that this thread will soon be moved to the squak box, as it usually does when one brings up the whole SWA type-rating requirement. That SWA requires a type rating is just another way of narrowing the applicants, and cutting overhead. It would be different if they made you pay them directly, and they made money off of you. In which case that would be major BS. And who can blame them for keeping costs down? You may even see other airlines follow suit in light of the current financial situations of most airlines today.

Minuteman · September 27th, 2003, 20:34

I thought it was a deal where if you got the type rating within six months, Southwest would reimburse ya. Do they not do that anymore?

TravelinMan · September 27th, 2003, 20:59

I have never heard of that. Not saying it doesn't exist, or didn't exist. From the way it has been discussed, I would say no.

giants_fan · September 28th, 2003, 19:24

No that story got way twisted!

Southwest never has and never will reimburse for types.

They used to allow you to interview without the type and then gave you six months to get it. That stopped after 9-11.

smokey1 · September 30th, 2003, 20:13

The Southwest first officer I talked to last month in Dallas said that they still have the program where you may interview without the type rating. Would a type-rating in Boeing Business Jet be the same as getting typed in the 737?
Smoke.

giants_fan · September 30th, 2003, 20:26

If they have allowed interviews without a 737 type it is news to me. I would think that would get around pretty fast.

I hope they do. Great place to work.

ready2fly · October 1st, 2003, 13:50

The last time I was on SWA's site - about three months ago give or take - they still required a 737 rating to interview.

Minuteman · October 1st, 2003, 23:19

They must waffle on the requirement. I also now seem to recall 'em, for a period, requiring a type to interview during the even leaner times. But on the southwest.com today:
[ QUOTE ]
A candidate may apply without a B-737 Type Rating. If a candidate interviews and successfully completes the entire selection process, he/she has 6 months from that date to obtain a B-737 Type Rating to be eligible for hire.

[/ QUOTE ]Still doesn't look like they pay for it.

And another note from their site:[ QUOTE ]
Southwest received 243,657 resumes and hired 5,042 new Employees in 2002

[/ QUOTE ]Nothing like a little smack from reality ... I feel sorry for those poor bastards in the other 98%.

N9103M · October 9th, 2003, 22:36

Don't go out and get a type.....

Mabye a contract job will come up every now and then, but most employers want current FSI or Simuflite training. Or a current 8410....

Save the money....

Plus your first jet is a tough experience to get used to, you are going to start planning way before you used to even ponder things in a Dutchess.

viper548 · October 11th, 2003, 16:36

I was at the airport today and saw a guy who owns a Citation 501....I gave him my name and number and told him if he ever needed a type rated co-pilot to give me a call...That's one good reason to get the type rating!!

robair73 · October 20th, 2003, 06:27

But did you ever get the call? . . . what's it worth if it doesn't get you the job.

jtrain609 · October 20th, 2003, 09:24

Arn't 501's able to be single pilot certified? With that, what's the point of having a co-pilot?

ricecakecm · October 20th, 2003, 10:06

[ QUOTE ]
Arn't 501's able to be single pilot certified? With that, what's the point of having a co-pilot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Insurance may require it.

rausda27 · October 20th, 2003, 11:09

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Arn't 501's able to be single pilot certified? With that, what's the point of having a co-pilot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Insurance may require it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Insurance may require it or if the autopilot is inop it is required...

rausda27 · October 20th, 2003, 11:09

Post deleted by rausda27

viper548 · October 20th, 2003, 13:21

I haven't gotten a call from him. I had two chances earlier this year to go as co-pilot. Once a guy needed a type rated co-pilot for 2 weeks. A different guy needed someone for a day. Didn't get to do either because my squadron got activated.
the 501 is single pilot cert. He doesn't NEED a co-pilot if all the equipment works, but it's always a good idea to have an extra set of eyes in the front row. Safety is also another reason. 2 pilots are 4-5 times safer than a single pilot.

viper548 · October 20th, 2003, 13:24

As an instructor, I could also give instruction in his plane. He may need an IPC sometime. BFR's aren't a problem because the annual 61.58 takes care of that.

C650CPT · October 29th, 2003, 13:43

Gentlemen
I am going to have to reverse myself on this issue in light of recent new information, with qualifiers.

Our insurance company just issued us our new policy with a rider requireing that our copilots be school trainined and typed in our C-650. That's BS !!!

We are "negotiating" with them to relax this as it is cost prohibitive and unnecessary.

FAR 61.55 only requires a SIC to have received the following instruction within the previous 12 calendar months:

(1) Become familiar with the following information for the specific type aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested --

(i) Operational procedures applicable to the powerplant, equipment, and systems.

(ii) Performance specifications and limitations.

(iii) Normal, abnormal, and emergency operating procedures.

(iv) Flight manual.

(v) Placards and markings.

and to have completed 3 landings and takeoffs, one single engine.

We can accomplish this in house, and presently use only furloughed airline pilots or Military pilots for SIC duties.

We will get the relieve we seek, but at what price on our premium. One of our arguments is that the airlines fly with a SIC that is not typed, agreed they are well trained and supervised.

As always the insurance companies have alot to say about our operations and often impose more limits on us than the FAR's. So that being said ... getting a type may open a door regardless of experience and background. Its still BS.

September 25th, 2003, 22:20	#1
AV8R_N8 Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: SoCal Posts: 37	Citation Type Rating Hello. I am considering getting a type rating for a Cessna Citation, for the experience, and also to make me more marketable to the airlines. I was looking at the program that ATP has. Its a 4 day program. 1st day is ground, 2nd is ground, sim, & flight. 3rd is ground, sim, & flight. and 4th is a checkride. They send you Training material before you start for you to go over. Being where I am at right now. Commercial Multi-Engine Instrument Pilot, with about 550 hours, and 100 hours multi, will it be pretty difficult to do such a rating without any previous Turbine time? I am pretty determined in aviation, and when it comes to learning something new, I could do it all day and all night. But the thing that concerns me the most is stepping up from a Beechcraft Duchess that cruises at about 140 knots straight to a Cessna Citation which I am assuming has an approach speed somewhere close to 140 knots. Anyone have any comments, tips? Thanks in advance.

September 26th, 2003, 05:13	#2
Eagle Banned Join Date: Oct 2000 Posts: 1,272	Re: Citation Type Rating unless you have a job lined up do not waste your money. I have plenty of time in a CE-500 as a FO and I doubt the type rating would be a walk in th park for me. So with about 500 hrs tt you may bite off more than you can chew.

September 27th, 2003, 09:37	#3
C650CPT Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Home Sweet Home! Posts: 957	Re: Citation Type Rating AV8R N8 Since you posted this three different times I will answer you three times: Don't do it, Don't do it, Don't do it. It serves absolutely no purpose at this point in your career, except ego. In fact it would be considered very negatively by experienced and potential employers. If some one was offering you a job today based on you haveing a type, I still would say Don't do it. A professional organization should never require this ( I have the same opionion about south west airlines requireing a 737 type rateing for thier new hires, its BS). The Bible has a proverb about a fool and his money soon being parted, don't be a fool.

September 27th, 2003, 20:19	#4
TravelinMan Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Troutdale OR Posts: 36	Re: Citation Type Rating I am 100% positive that this thread will soon be moved to the squak box, as it usually does when one brings up the whole SWA type-rating requirement. That SWA requires a type rating is just another way of narrowing the applicants, and cutting overhead. It would be different if they made you pay them directly, and they made money off of you. In which case that would be major BS. And who can blame them for keeping costs down? You may even see other airlines follow suit in light of the current financial situations of most airlines today.

September 27th, 2003, 20:34	#5
Minuteman Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,529 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Citation Type Rating I thought it was a deal where if you got the type rating within six months, Southwest would reimburse ya. Do they not do that anymore?

September 27th, 2003, 20:59	#6
TravelinMan Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Troutdale OR Posts: 36	Re: Citation Type Rating I have never heard of that. Not saying it doesn't exist, or didn't exist. From the way it has been discussed, I would say no.

September 28th, 2003, 19:24	#7
giants_fan Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 85	Re: Citation Type Rating No that story got way twisted! Southwest never has and never will reimburse for types. They used to allow you to interview without the type and then gave you six months to get it. That stopped after 9-11.

September 30th, 2003, 20:13	#8
smokey1 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Houston Posts: 331	Re: Citation Type Rating The Southwest first officer I talked to last month in Dallas said that they still have the program where you may interview without the type rating. Would a type-rating in Boeing Business Jet be the same as getting typed in the 737? Smoke.

September 30th, 2003, 20:26	#9
giants_fan Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 85	Re: Citation Type Rating If they have allowed interviews without a 737 type it is news to me. I would think that would get around pretty fast. I hope they do. Great place to work.

October 1st, 2003, 13:50	#10
ready2fly Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 7,192	Re: Citation Type Rating The last time I was on SWA's site - about three months ago give or take - they still required a 737 rating to interview.

October 1st, 2003, 23:19	#11
Minuteman Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,529 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Citation Type Rating They must waffle on the requirement. I also now seem to recall 'em, for a period, requiring a type to interview during the even leaner times. But on the southwest.com today: [ QUOTE ] A candidate may apply without a B-737 Type Rating. If a candidate interviews and successfully completes the entire selection process, he/she has 6 months from that date to obtain a B-737 Type Rating to be eligible for hire. [/ QUOTE ]Still doesn't look like they pay for it. And another note from their site:[ QUOTE ] Southwest received 243,657 resumes and hired 5,042 new Employees in 2002 [/ QUOTE ]Nothing like a little smack from reality ... I feel sorry for those poor bastards in the other 98%.

October 9th, 2003, 22:36	#12
N9103M Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Belleville, MI Posts: 235	Re: Citation Type Rating Don't go out and get a type..... Mabye a contract job will come up every now and then, but most employers want current FSI or Simuflite training. Or a current 8410.... Save the money.... Plus your first jet is a tough experience to get used to, you are going to start planning way before you used to even ponder things in a Dutchess.

October 11th, 2003, 16:36	#13
viper548 Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 818	Re: Citation Type Rating I was at the airport today and saw a guy who owns a Citation 501....I gave him my name and number and told him if he ever needed a type rated co-pilot to give me a call...That's one good reason to get the type rating!!

October 20th, 2003, 06:27	#14
robair73 Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Chi town Posts: 521	Re: Citation Type Rating But did you ever get the call? . . . what's it worth if it doesn't get you the job.

October 20th, 2003, 09:24	#15
jtrain609 Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Park City, UT Posts: 12,377	Re: Citation Type Rating Arn't 501's able to be single pilot certified? With that, what's the point of having a co-pilot?

October 20th, 2003, 10:06	#16
ricecakecm Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: MO Posts: 234	Re: Citation Type Rating [ QUOTE ] Arn't 501's able to be single pilot certified? With that, what's the point of having a co-pilot? [/ QUOTE ] Insurance may require it.

October 20th, 2003, 11:09	#17
rausda27 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 1,263	Re: Citation Type Rating [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Arn't 501's able to be single pilot certified? With that, what's the point of having a co-pilot? [/ QUOTE ] Insurance may require it. [/ QUOTE ] Insurance may require it or if the autopilot is inop it is required...

October 20th, 2003, 11:09	#18
rausda27 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 1,263	Re: Citation Type Rating DELETED Post deleted by rausda27

October 20th, 2003, 13:21	#19
viper548 Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 818	Re: Citation Type Rating I haven't gotten a call from him. I had two chances earlier this year to go as co-pilot. Once a guy needed a type rated co-pilot for 2 weeks. A different guy needed someone for a day. Didn't get to do either because my squadron got activated. the 501 is single pilot cert. He doesn't NEED a co-pilot if all the equipment works, but it's always a good idea to have an extra set of eyes in the front row. Safety is also another reason. 2 pilots are 4-5 times safer than a single pilot.

October 20th, 2003, 13:24	#20
viper548 Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 818	Re: Citation Type Rating As an instructor, I could also give instruction in his plane. He may need an IPC sometime. BFR's aren't a problem because the annual 61.58 takes care of that.

October 29th, 2003, 13:43	#21
C650CPT Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Home Sweet Home! Posts: 957	Re: Citation Type Rating Gentlemen I am going to have to reverse myself on this issue in light of recent new information, with qualifiers. Our insurance company just issued us our new policy with a rider requireing that our copilots be school trainined and typed in our C-650. That's BS !!! We are "negotiating" with them to relax this as it is cost prohibitive and unnecessary. FAR 61.55 only requires a SIC to have received the following instruction within the previous 12 calendar months: (1) Become familiar with the following information for the specific type aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested -- (i) Operational procedures applicable to the powerplant, equipment, and systems. (ii) Performance specifications and limitations. (iii) Normal, abnormal, and emergency operating procedures. (iv) Flight manual. (v) Placards and markings. and to have completed 3 landings and takeoffs, one single engine. We can accomplish this in house, and presently use only furloughed airline pilots or Military pilots for SIC duties. We will get the relieve we seek, but at what price on our premium. One of our arguments is that the airlines fly with a SIC that is not typed, agreed they are well trained and supervised. As always the insurance companies have alot to say about our operations and often impose more limits on us than the FAR's. So that being said ... getting a type may open a door regardless of experience and background. Its still BS.

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