Grass Strips & Jets

[mav2005]

Hello -

I typically just browse this forum, but I came up with a few questions so I figured I would post. I've been interested in corporate jets since I was around five years old and I've always seen/tracked them flying into paved strips at various towns across the US. What corporate aircraft (jets) can land at grass or dirt strips and take off (4000ft strip Sea Level)? At 4000ft of dirt, is the strip mostly limited to Citations and Learjets? Inside of corporate jets, is their a chart or performance plate for grass/dirt strips?

If you increase the strip length to 5000ft, does that 1000ft of dirt make a big impact? With 5000ft of dirt, could you land and take off in a Falcon 900 for example? Will NetJets, Citation Shares, etc fly into grass and dirt strips? Lastly, at 3000ft elevation, does a 5000ft strip of dirt/grass further decrease performance of a jet compared to 5000ft of pavement given the same weather conditions?

Thanks!
Lance

[Stone Cold]

Hey Mav,

I fly Lear 60's and as far as I've seen, there are no numbers for grass strips. We are too heavy and, even if a customer wanted to go to a grass strip, our insurance wouldn't let us.

I don't know about smaller Lears, or the Twin Cessnas (), but I'd venture to say there are no numbers the manufacturer will put out for it, nor will any insurance company allow it. Of course, there are always exceptions, and I'm sure there are one or two cases of it, but for the most part, it doesn't happen.

Welcome aboard!!!

[Fly_Unity]

Originally Posted by mav2005

Hello -

I typically just browse this forum, but I came up with a few questions so I figured I would post. I've been interested in corporate jets since I was around five years old and I've always seen/tracked them flying into paved strips at various towns across the US. What corporate aircraft (jets) can land at grass or dirt strips and take off (4000ft strip Sea Level)? At 4000ft of dirt, is the strip mostly limited to Citations and Learjets? Inside of corporate jets, is their a chart or performance plate for grass/dirt strips?

If you increase the strip length to 5000ft, does that 1000ft of dirt make a big impact? With 5000ft of dirt, could you land and take off in a Falcon 900 for example? Will NetJets, Citation Shares, etc fly into grass and dirt strips? Lastly, at 3000ft elevation, does a 5000ft strip of dirt/grass further decrease performance of a jet compared to 5000ft of pavement given the same weather conditions?

Thanks!
Lance

In Wyoming there are alot of corporate rich guys who have their own jets, I seen them land citations on a 3,500x50 at 4000 msl, One guy has a grass strip at 10,000 feet msl who lands his jet on that once in a while

[JDE]

The Falcon 10 can be landed on unimproved strips (ie - dirt) as long as you the "the kit" installed, which is basically nothing more than a few things like certain covers over the landing lights, and perhaps a tire change.

As far as grass strips are concerned, I would suspect that probably only jets with single wheels would be able to do it. I have no idea if this is the case, only speculation.

The best runway surface is a dry, paved runway, (and I'm not just saying that because of the company I work for). Without having the information right in front of me, (for the Falcon 10 at least) I would guess that the performance on the dirt strip is going to be less than the paved strip. I hope that helps answer your question.

[JDE]

Originally Posted by Fly_Unity

One guy has a grass strip at 10,000 feet msl who lands his jet on that once in a while

Has he ever taken off after he landed it?

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by Fly_Unity

I seen them

I have seen them...

[RynoB]

There are some models of the Citations that can have a kit installed for unimproved runway operations.

[BobDDuck]

I would think the big thing would be FOD screens for the engine inlets. I've seen them for helicopters before so I would guess they make them for fixed wing aircraft too.

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by mav2005

Will NetJets...fly into grass and dirt strips?

No.


******************

There is a "gavel kit" mod that can be installed on straight wing Citations, Including the Excel.

[Pilatapus]

Alaska Airlines used to fly 737s into gravel strips in parts of Alaska. I'm not sure if they still do that or not. They had gravel deflectors on the landing gear as well as other modifications to do this.

[Jason]

There is a 'kit' available for Challengers that allow them to go into unimproved runways. We had 'numbers' for gravel runways.

Jason

[mav2005]

With turbo props, I would think that one could land those on unimproved airstrips. I'm thinking along the lines of a King Air 200 or 90, Pilatus PC-12, Piper Cheyenne, or an Otter. Is there an unimproved/gravel kit for those aircraft as well? Regardless of the aircraft, if you plan on using unimproved airstrips, does this increase your insurance premium?

I was looking at Truth or Consequences airport today in New Mexico and in the nearby area there are several ranches of large size. At the airport, the elevation is 4853ft with an air temp of around 89*F today. Even if you had a 5000ft unimproved strip, at that elevation and temperature, wouldn't just about any twin engine aircraft have trouble taking off?

Thanks for the answers everyone.

[Pilatapus]

Pilatus put out an information leaflet for operating off prpared unpaved surfaces. They published performance charts but caution pilots in another section that different factors will affect peformance figures. PC-12 takeoff ground roll at that elevation and temp would be about 2500 ft. at gross weight no wind or runway slope. It works out to be roughly 2900 ft. for total landing distance over a 50 ft. obstacle, or about 1850 ft. landing roll at gross no wind or slope. Nothing is mentioned about any modifications or kits for gravel ops. I would think that King Airs would have similar performance as the Pilatus and the Otter (Twin or otherwise) would outperform all of them. Don't know too much about any of the Cheyenne series but that 400LS with those massive paddles looks like if you stood it on its tail it would hover away.

To my knowledge the only plane mentioned that would have a gravel kit would be the (Twin) Otter. All of them have one built into their design. Those high wings keep the rocks off the props and dirt out of the engine.

Rocks and gravel etc. dinging up the prop(s) is a big concern when operating on dirt runways. Good technique can help minimize that.

As far as insurance I'm thinking not, especially if you didn't tell your agent what you are going to be doing but that's from someone who has not had to deal with airplane insurance companies.

[Milesar]

Well, how about a 727?

[falconvalley]

I know the Falcon 50 did grass field ops during its initial flight testing. Most insurance companies would not want their customers flying jets into grass strips that are short regularly. Most insurance companies don't like it when their customers' jets are based at airports with sub-5000ft paved runways.

Any Beechcraft turboprop (1900, 99, King Air, etc) would be well suited for unimproved fields. I sat in the right seat as a friend landed a King Air 90 on a 2400 ft grass runway. I definitely wouldn't do that regularly or recommend. I would want a minimum of 3300-3500 ft for grass on a King Air, just for safety. Sure, the airplane can do it, but not by much.

[Bumblebee]

A Citation landed on the dirt at Burning Man last year in the Nevada Desert. In the August Air & Space the designer of the runway said it is a 5000' runway with a 137,000' overrun

8 months later the owner of the jet reports no problems from the dust.