Career Path for Corporate?

Asta · January 28th, 2007, 12:28

Hello Friends,

I have a PPL with 100 hours and am looking to change careers. I am 43 and previously worked as a prosecutor. My intention is to train this year and follow a course that will lead to a corporate prop/jet department in the NYC area, or possibly charter or fractional. I can swing the money and am willing to pay my dues at a regional or as a CFI if necessary, but I need to know the best route to take. And also: is this possible, given my circumstances?

I've been considering ATP or Flight Safety. The later is closer (their Trenton, NJ facility is near NYC) but FSA seems to have a better path to corporate aviation through its business jet direct program. I have a wife and family that are not portable, so Florida might be an imposition on them if I were to disappear for a year.

Appreciate any thoughts/views.

SteveC · January 28th, 2007, 14:43

It's certainly possible to make the switch. Corporate/fractional is a good choice for those of us with a little gray hair, because many operators like the maturity aspect.

(One disclaimer: the title "corporate" can cover a huge specturm of operations. I'm going to primarily talk about the nicer corporate flight departments that pay well and have good quality of life. Corporate could also mean a single pilot flying someone's Cirrus, but I don't consider that to be an end goal type job for purposes of our discussion.)

The *best* road is really tough to give advice about. There are many ways to get here, and all have pluses and minuses. The most important requirement about landing a good corporate gig is knowing people. Networking is king. You need to have someone (that knows you, likes you, and is willing to put their name on the line for you) be the person that says "I know someone" when a chief pilot somewhere has an opening and asks his guys "who do you know...".

The next part of the equation is having the hours and experience to fill the position. It is not at all unusual to see starting corporate turboprop or light jets requiring 1500 to 2500 hours. These are the first stage corporate jobs that will position you for the final end-goal operation. The really good jobs will require 3,500 to 5,000 hours as a minimum. A few guys will get lucky and get hired to ride right seat in an entry level job with 500-700 hours, but I sure wouldn't count on it.

What's the best way to get the hours and experience? I've seen guys go either charter or freight or regional to get to corporate. All of those routes take a minimum number of hours to get started, though, and Instructing is by far the most common route to getting those initial hours and experience. (There are some other options, but for the sake of this discussion we'll stick with CFI'ing.) Instructing can be a good opportunity to begin networking if you can position yourself somewhere that gets you a lot of exposure to the charter and corporate guys on the airport in the area that you want to live and work. A larger FBO at an airport with lots of light jet traffic would be ideal. You'll quickly develop contacts, and you might be surprised how quickly a door will open somewhere. Might only be a chance to ride right seat once a month in a King Air, but it is still a foot in the door. One problem with instructing at an FBO is that some are not as busy as others and it may take a while to get a decent amount of hours built up. I really like the idea of doing your initial training at a local FBO (maybe instrument, multi-engine and commercial), then deciding whether to continue doing your Instructor training with them if they are set up to handle it, or moving on to a bigger place to finish up. It is possible to do your training at an FBO at a fast pace and much cheaper than an academy, but it takes planning, dedication, and a willing instructor.

For the next step in experience building you will be looking at one of the three routes I listed above. Charter has an advantage in that you have a lot of opportunities to meet corporate pilots since you are spending tons of time in FBO's with them. You will get a lot of experience in the kinds of flying, and especially the other skills that are needed in corporate ops such as being very flexible with changing itineraries, keeping the plane clean, handling catering, flight planning, getting the coffee and papers, and a huge commitent to attention to detail. The down side can be that you don't get as many flying hours (500 per year is a pretty good clip for pax charter flying) so it might take a little longer to get to the next stage.

Freight is probably the best exposure to all-weather flying, building instrument skills, and PIC decision making of any kind of flying and everyone knows it. Downside is that it can be tougher to network since you are often on a different schedule (night versus day) than the corporate guys. There are also a few people that think that freight guys have a *cowboy* mentality that may not fit well with corporate flight cultures. It is a misconception, but still could be a factor.

Regional flying is probably the quickest way to build up total time and get turbine experience. Regional guys might fly 900-1,000 hours a year, so less than two years would give you enough time to qualify for a decent corporate job rather than 3 to 4 years in charter and entry level corporate. You can usually get started flying at a regional much sooner (600 to 1000 hours total time) than flying freight or charter (1200 hours minimum for IFR part 135). The problem here is two-fold though. First is that you will be so busy flying the line and trying to make ends meet that you won't have much opportunity to make the acquaintances you need for the corporate step. All of your time at the airport is spent in the passenger terminal instead of across the field at the FBO's. The second problem is that regional flying is different than corporate flying in regards to the duties involved, and sometimes airline guys don't take well to all the extraneous duties and people skills that are involved in flying corporate. Because of this a few corporate operators tend to steer away from regional guys. Again, mostly a misconception but one that some people might have to deal with.

The FSA program where you spend time in the right seat in sim sessions could be a good way (make that a great way) to network with corporate guys, but I see a couple of negatives that you should keep in mind for your situation. First, the guys that you sim with will be from all over the country, not just the NYC area. Those contacts won't do you much good if you want to stay local. The second problem is that the sim flying can be sporadic, and is not actual *flight* time so it doesn't add to that all important Total (flight) Time column in the logbook. If you could combine some local instructing with filling in as a right seater at a local Flight Safety, you might have a good combination. Not sure how easy it is to pull that combination together, and what things you would need to take into consideration to make it work, but I suppose it could be a viable option.

Fractional operations, as opposed to corporate, might give you a few more options. Listed minimums are around 2500 hours (although probably 3500+ might be more typical), and a recommendation from an inside pilot is a big plus for getting to the interview stage. Going to fractional from regional is probably slightly easier than to corporate, so a good fast track might be CFI/regional/fractional(/then on to corporate if you want to). Living in NYC area gives you another good reason to consider fractional, and that is that most of the fractional operators have bases/gateways in New York.

Lots of pluses and minuses to consider, and none of this information should be considered an absolute. For almost everything that I have said above there are exceptions. My best advice is to ask questions and do a lot of "what-if" thinking.

Good luck.

Oh, and the most important bit of advice I can give you is to just enjoy the journey. Have fun every day, enjoy the kind of flying that you are doing right then and there, and don't fixate so much on the end goal that you miss the best parts of why we do this job.

n57flyguy · January 28th, 2007, 15:02

Awsome post Steve.

Asta · January 28th, 2007, 19:28

Steve --

I second FlyGuy: great post, and thanks for the really solid advice. Certainly helps to get the inside scoop, as I'm an outsider to all this. You confirmed my belief that luck and hard work are probably required in equal measure here. The flight school website hype, of course, makes it all sound so easy: "From Zero Time to Astronaut in Three Weeks . . . !" Instinctively I knew the road was going to be a little harder.

My thinking is that I'm too old (no gray yet!) to start a traditional airline career. I'm never going to pilot a 757 with so many younger, hungry pilots already on the ladder. On the other hand I'm smart, hard-working, love to fly, don't expect a million bucks, and am willing to put in the time and money to find a decent aviation job that allows me to stay where I am. Corporate/charter/frax appeals to me as it seems less rigid than airline flying -- not to mention I love bizjets.

Corny as this may sound, my main concern is to be the best pilot I can be. After I got my PPL, I gave up flying for a while mainly because I knew that with work/family commitments, I was never going to get enough hours to feel comfortable putting my kids in the back seat of a rental C172. So, if I'm going to do this, I want to do more than just collect tickets to hang on my wall.

Therefore, to get started, what's the "best" school? By "best" I mean "best for someone in my position"? I've narrowed it to ATP-Trenton or Flight Safety. On the one hand ATP is cheaper, closer, gives more multi-time, is a great entree to the regionals, and offers an airline transition program that allows you to build more time (in lieu of teaching), tho for another $22K.

On the other hand FSA has a better (deservedly?) reputation and has a Business Jet Direct program that allows you to focus on bizjets and to teach at one of their bizjet training facilities, two of which are in the NY area. I guess FSA would take longer and with the program I would be away from home for several months more; this might not be acceptable to my wife (or to me!) However, if it is the "best" route, I will give it serious consideration.

If you're saying the the best route is to go regional right off the bat, then ATP might be the choice as it seems well situated to getting its graduates interviews and jobs in regional airlines that serve my part of the country. (I hope I could get job with a carrier having a hub that would allow me to continue to live at home, at least a few days a week!)

If, however, it is desireable to get an "in" with those who fly for corporate departments, then FSA might be the way to go, inasmuch as their program seems directed at just that.

Decisions, decisions. One of the biggets points of contention on this forum is which school is best?/which is the best route to take to an aviation career? Everyone seems to have a different answer, and I suppose they are all right in their own way.

My gut tells me to stick with first principles: learn the craft and pay your dues. I suppose at the end of the day either ATP or FSA would be a good choice, but I do want to avoid dropping a load of money, spending months away from home, and then finding I have no prospects for employment or that the only jobs open to me are those that require I move across the country. I'm sure I would profit from the experience and become a better pilot, but I do want to know that I'm getting on a career path that is workable with my situation and desires.

Thanks a million for the help. Really appreciate it.

West270 · January 28th, 2007, 20:33

Steve,

You have some great advice there. Thank you. You have helped me more than you ever know.

West

SteveC · January 28th, 2007, 21:13

Hopefully some of the other corporate guys will chime in here as they get a chance to check in. Many of them are not as frequent visitors so it may take a day or three, but they'll have some good things to add and will probably bring a little different perspective then I do. We've got some good fractional representation on this site also.

Hmmm....best school. I don't have a clue what would be best for you, but if I were in your shoes I would think very seriously about doing as much of my training as I could in the geographic area that I want to end up working. I would spend a month touring all of the FBO's that do flight training in that area and evaluate them. Compare what they have available for training aircraft; how many instructors are working there; how busy are they; what are their rates; how many students; are they connected or co-located with some charter or corporate operations; are there other charter or corporate operators on the field; what is the quality of the facilities and aircraft; what does their maintenance department look like...as many different aspects as I can think of. I would spend some time thinking about the pros and cons of each, keeping in mind that there are no absolutes (for example, sometimes fewer instructors is better than too many if there is not enough work for all of them, versus not having an instructor available when I need one)) Then I would go back to the leading candidates and have a meeting with their head of training and talk about my goals and how they could help me meet them. I would outline to them that I want a fast paced program with an equivalent timetable to an ATP or FSA, but I want it at the local FBO rates. I would want them to talk very candidly about their capabilities to take me through all of the ratings, and if they can't (for example they might not have a multi-engine trainer, or be set up to train CFI candidates) I would maybe think about one of the larger schools for those few last ratings. I would spend some time to lay out a very clear plan of attack to cover all the bases, with approximate timetables and cost estimates (remember that their estimates will almost invariably be on the low side) and I would rely on resources like the good people here at JetCareers to help me make the plan and cover all the bases.

I would approach it that way because I think that I could:
1. Save a boatload of money.
2. Stay with my family.
3. Make important contacts in the local charter/corporate community while training.
4. Have a good chance of getting hired as an instructor at the completion of my training.

Now you, on the other hand, may very well want to go to ATP or FSI for all of your ratings. I think that there may be some benefits to doing so, such as: removing all of your daily life distractions while you do your training; work with a well established syllabus rather than having to plan one of your own with your instructor; getting better flyable weather if you train in a different climate; possibly complete the training faster than at an FBO (although that is debatable); or maybe for some other reasons.

You have some options that I didn't have, considering that you have an ATP location nearby, and that getting on with FSI might be possible in your local area as well. I'm really not familiar enough with ATP's program to give an opinion one way or the other. There are plenty of guys here that speak highly of them (Captain_Bob comes to mind - I've met him, I like him, and I trust his opinion), while there are others that point out some potential downfalls to their high-paced programs. There were one or two guys here that did the right seat program at Flight Safety and could chime in on their thoughts about it as well. I don't know if that is the same thing that you are talking about though. I will say that I did an initial type rating at Flight Safety and I think that they are a good outfit.

Everybody's circumstances are different, thus there is no *best* way. I think you're on the right track by asking questions and not just blindly following the marketing hype out there. Due diligence.

Quote:

You confirmed my belief that luck and hard work are probably required in equal measure here.

There is an old saying about "hard work creates good luck", or something similar to that. It's true in aviation as much as anywhere else.

One last caveat. Don't take what I say as gospel. I'm giving you the scoop as I see it from my little vantage point over here, you need to temper what I say with things that you hear from others as well...

stuckingfk · January 28th, 2007, 21:27

Steve gave some great advice. I'd never have the patience to type that much.

I've had two corporate positions now in the past 16 moths so I'll share some of my advice.

There's so many things you can do to get into corporate side it can be frustrating. I wish there were a "printed guide" stating what exactly needs to be done to become a corporate pilot, but there isn't.

Here's my opinion (and just that) on what you should do:

-Get your training done locally.
-Spend as little as possible
-Get your CFI, CFII, and MEI
-Make sure you get a job flying a twin
-Get a 1000 hours of multi PIC
-Do this as quick as you can while enjoying yourself along the way
-Don't go to Flight Safety (their program, while a good one, isn't worth it till you have at least 1000 hours total time. Flight Safety requires that amount of total time to get typed).
-If you want to do Fractional, go to a regional and build your time quickly.
-Network, Network, Network

Good luck, and if you have any questions please ask.

TexasFlyer · January 29th, 2007, 04:13

Steve, kudos to you on a great post. As a professional aviation recruiter for several national flight departments and FBOs, your post is exactly as I would have told it.

Asta · January 29th, 2007, 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexasFlyer

Steve, kudos to you on a great post. As a professional aviation recruiter for several national flight departments and FBOs, your post is exactly as I would have told it.

Texas -- As a recruiter, what's your take on my chances to get something going here? Assuming I do well in the training and get the required certifications, time, and recommendations, do you think my age (43) and switch in careers (from law) would be an impediment? I'm curious how human resource folks at the regionals and in the corporate/frax departments might view my application.

NJA_Capt · January 29th, 2007, 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asta

I'm curious how human resource folks at the regionals and in the corporate/frax departments might view my application.

It won't be an issue with NetJets as long as you meet the minimums (preferably more than mins). There are several pilots at NetJets who are former doctors and lawyers.

West270 · January 29th, 2007, 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

It won't be an issue with NetJets as long as you meet the minimums (preferably more than mins). There are several pilots at NetJets who are former doctors and lawyers.

NJA Capt, Thanks for that info. I once worked at Signature IAD and several of your co-workers gave me alot of good advice.

I'm a recent FSA graduate and if I had to do it all over again, I would go to a local FBO for 1/2 the price. Don't get me wrong FSA is a good school but, I saw alot of room for improvement.

dieselman1220 · January 29th, 2007, 13:28

There is some awesome advice here, and I second that networking is the key. Also coming up through the ranks i was always told that aviation is a small world you will never know who you will see again so dont ever burn a bridge any where. Its not till I have started spending alot of time at FBOs that I have come to see all this it really is true.

surreal1221 · January 29th, 2007, 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by n57flyguy

Awsome post Steve.

Dang amazing. Thanks for it Steve.

ananoman · January 29th, 2007, 21:23

FSA is a good school, but I am not sure it would work in your situation. If you are willing to live in FL for a while, it may be an option. If you try to do this, I would do most of your ratings, including commercial single engine locally. Then you could go to FSA and do your commercial multi add on and your CFI.

It would then be easier to get hired at FSA as an instructor (the sim part of the interview is in a Frasca and you use their proceedures for the Seminole). If you are an instructor you will probably spend another year down there building time. They probably still have their instructors sign a contract to instruct for 800 hours. Right now they are probably pretty busy so this won't take as long as you would think. As a bonus, they also will pay for your CFII and MEI if they hire you.

After all of this you will be ready for one of their internships, if you are interested. Each center is different, but if you pick the right one, you will stay pretty busy. After you are there a year, you are supposed to get a type rating. Every center is different however, you may get typed right away or even get more than one rating. Since NY is where their corporate offices are, you will probably have to wait a year.

Some have left FSA for the internships after getting their CFI ratings, but with only a few hundred hours, they won't type you. So, you will still have to instruct to get that total time up. This may be an option to get you home quicker though.

As Steve has said, low time and Corporate don't mix well in the same sentence. Even with an ATP and a type rating, you probably won't get hired by a corporate flight department. It is more likely you will get picked up by a charter company. Hours, pay and QOL can vary widely. Some really abuse their pilots and pay crap. Others are pretty good places to work.

I did the internship and am currently flying charter. I like my job and I am paid well. I work two weeks on and then get one week off. We don't do late night call outs (if the phone doesn't ring, I can start drinking at 1800 hrs) and usually adhere to the 14 hr duty day. We can fly home empty after we have timed out, but are not expected or encouraged to. It is our option. Even during my two weeks on, I don't fly everyday. So, I get a lot of free time. One disadvantage is I only fly about 400 hrs a year.

There are corporate jobs out there where the pilots make a lot of money and fly all over the world, but it takes a while to get there. And, there are some disadvantages. Some flight departents do the same flights over and over to the same factories/business locations. If you go international you may be gone for weeks at a time. Also, some suprisingly large corporations have A-hole chief pilots and a pretty unhappy pilot group. But, by the time you get to that point, you will probably have networked enough to know where these are.

Since you probably want to stay as close to your family as possible, you may want to go to ATP and then get on with a regional with a domicile in NY. Then you could try to get on with Net Jets or another fractional. After you are there, you may decide to stay. They have it pretty good after their last contract. If not, you will be flying corporate type aircraft and will have the skills that a flight department will be looking for. NY and Delaware both have quite a few flight departments you can hound after you get the experience.

Asta · January 30th, 2007, 21:02

Great advice everybody. Great forum. Thanks.

LoadMasterC141 · January 30th, 2007, 21:40

Wow Steve. You are the man as usual! The world needs more helpful people like yourself. Cheers.

TexasFlyer · January 31st, 2007, 02:10

Asta, age will not be a factor for you on the Charter 135 side to start. If might even work in your favor if you demonstrate great customer service and networking skills. Then keep on networking since if you speak with the right people you may eventually land a great Part 91 Corporate gig.

Best of luck to you! I'm going down the same path to try to land a good corproate pilot gig and will start working toward this at the age of 34. And with all I know about how to get there as a recruiter myself, I'm still confused! There may be a best way to land the airline gig (CFI to Regional to Major), but there is no direct or best path to corporate.

SuperStarFlyer · January 31st, 2007, 21:54

This is probably one of the best threads I have read since being on JC. Thanks guys for telling it how it is. Great advice!

flyTotheSky · February 1st, 2007, 11:01

I too would like to go corporate one day. Right now I'm a 400 hr CFI, junior in college so I have a ways to go.....

All my buddies want to join the regional rat race but I feel like if I do that, it will lesson my opportunities down the road to get on with a Fortune 500 department. I feel like they see "airline" on the resume and it immediately gets black-listed. Is this the case still? Or is it pretty much knowing the right people?

I know people make jumps from the regionals to the fracs but it must be pretty tough to make the jump from regional to a part 91 department.

I know some people on here fly for the fractionals. How do you all like it? NetJets seems like a great company and they are still growing. I saw they just placed an order for a bunch of Hawkers.

How do the fracs compare to a part 91 department? The 7 day on/7 day off thing doesn't sound that bad....?

Well in the end, it seems like the easiest way to fly a biz jet is to run to the regionals, build the time, and send the resume out to the fracs...

I just wish there was a better way because I'm not willing to sell my soul to fly an RJ...

NJA_Capt · February 1st, 2007, 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyTotheSky

I know some people on here fly for the fractionals. How do you all like it? NetJets seems like a great company and they are still growing. I saw they just placed an order for a bunch of Hawkers.

I have been with NetJets for 9 years and I love it. I do not plan on leaving. Major airline flying is not appealing to me at all. Sure I would like to fly a "big" airplane, but I don't want to fly one between the same 6 cities for the next 20+ years, bolted behind a bulletproof door and eating terminal food all week. (No offense to the guys that find that appealing

) I always thought the "dream job" would be to fly an airliner with "corporate" interior........now I have the chance.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0721061/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0777334/M/

This thing has so much paint missing it needs a new W/B.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0809152/M/

The last I heard, we had ordered over 1200 aircraft. There are 600+ in the fleet currently (worldwide).

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyTotheSky

How do the fracs compare to a part 91 department? The 7 day on/7 day off thing doesn't sound that bad....?

The corp guys are usually the first to say they are different animals. And they are. There are good 91 department and bad 91 departments. With over 13000 business jets registered worldwide and only 500 "fortune 500" flight departments, you don't have to be a math major to know the odds of getting on with one of them is like getting hit by lightning. Unless the you happen to live next door to their chief pilot

The 7/7 schedule isn't that bad. I have two small kids and have not had trouble making time for family events. The week at home more than makes up for being gone.

One big difference between 91 and NJA is the labor contract and work rules. Max 14 hours of duty and min 10 hours of rest. There is also a very strong safety culture and the option of calling "fatigued" at any time. If we say the trip is not safe, it doesn't leave.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyTotheSky

Well in the end, it seems like the easiest way to fly a biz jet is to run to the regionals, build the time, and send the resume out to the fracs...

Not really. Most CFIs see corp pilots daily and have the option to build a rapport with them, something that is impossible from Concourse E. I got my first contacts and trips while I was a CFI and flying freight/charter. I started meeting EJA (now NJA) pilots while flying charter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyTotheSky

I just wish there was a better way because I'm not willing to sell my soul to fly an RJ...

Am I ever glad to hear that. You get the JC gold star for the day!

flyTotheSky · February 1st, 2007, 18:36

NJA_Capt,

Thanks for taking the time to answer some of my questions.

In your opnion what would be the best route at my point in my career (21 yr old CFI) to get a job eventually at NetJets. I'm 21 years old and still have another year of college left, which I'm not complaining about

. What sort of time does the HR dept. like to see, if there is any preference? I imagine you get a lot of guys jumping ship from the regionals... Probably a fair mix of 135, mil, and retired 121 folk?

Is there a better route to take?

Another question...

You mentioned that QOL is pretty good. With the 7/7 schedule, is it possible to trade/drop trips if need be. How about vacation and holidays? Do you have to be pretty senior in the company to get a fair amount of these days off? Any travel benefits?

Thanks again

NJA_Capt · February 1st, 2007, 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyTotheSky

In your opinion what would be the best route at my point in my career (21 yr old CFI) to get a job eventually at NetJets.

The traditional route aside from military works pretty well. CFI, charter and or freight. Make sure to develop some “customer oriented” skills somewhere, whether while flying or another job on the side. HR likes to see that you will interact well with owners.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyTotheSky

What sort of time does the HR dept. like to see, if there is any preference? I imagine you get a lot of guys jumping ship from the regionals. Probably a fair mix of 135, mil, and retired 121 folk?

All that you have mentioned are coming, including major airline retirees. As long as you meet the minimums you are considered with everyone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyTotheSky

With the 7/7 schedule, is it possible to trade/drop trips if need be.

We do not have trip dropping, trading, or junior manning. There is a provision in the current contract to swap vacations with someone with your position/fleet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyTotheSky

How about vacation and holidays? Do you have to be pretty senior in the company to get a fair amount of these days off? Any travel benefits?

1-4 years 2 weeks
5-9 years 3 weeks
10+ 4 weeks

We bid our vacation a year in advance. We also have a program that projects each schedule for 10 years and allows us to bid around holidays if seniority allows. Last year I worked 2 holidays this year 4.

All travel benefits are through points accrual with all the airlines and hotels. Most all of the pilots are Silver or Gold on two or more airlines and accrue several free tickets per year. The same goes for the Hotel points. All NJA pilots are Diamond Hilton card members and can stay free anywhere in the world (6 days = 175,000 points) We don’t worry about space available or buddy passes, we ride on space positive tickets both at work and on vacation.

flyTotheSky · February 1st, 2007, 22:34

Great info Cap!

You mentioned getting positive space travel benefits when you are traveling to work. Do a lot of guys there commute or live in base. Does the commute really eat into your days off? Let's say you live in Chicago for example. I know NetJets doesn't have a pilot domicile there...but do they even allow commuters?

NJA_Capt · February 1st, 2007, 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyTotheSky

Do a lot of guys there commute or live in base. Does the commute really eat into your days off? Let's say you live in Chicago for example. I know NetJets doesn't have a pilot domicile there...but do they even allow commuters?

Yes you can commute and yes it eats into your time off. Many guys live in the domiciles and many choose to commute. But keep in mind that we do not have scheduled routes and have no way to jumpseat/non-rev in. If you choose to do it, it is on your time and your dime.

The company pays for all tickets and travel arrangements to get you from the domicile to the plane. They do NOT pay to get you to your domicile for work.

Texasspilot · February 1st, 2007, 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

Yes you can commute and yes it eats into your time off. Many guys live in the domiciles and many choose to commute. But keep in mind that we do not have scheduled routes and have no way to jumpseat/non-rev in. If you choose to do it, it is on your time and your dime.

The company pays for all tickets and travel arrangements to get you from the domicile to the plane. They do NOT pay to get you to your domicile for work.

You mean NJA doesn't pay to get from your home to your domicile correct?

I.E. live in Austin but DFW domicile. Its your responsibility to be in domicile the day your 7 start and they pay to airline you out of DFW to the airplane.

I've also been told the company will airline you to wherever you wan't on your 7th day up to the cost of the ticket back to the domicile. Have you heard the same thing NJA_capt?

January 28th, 2007, 12:28	#1
Asta Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 134	Career Path for Corporate? Hello Friends, I have a PPL with 100 hours and am looking to change careers. I am 43 and previously worked as a prosecutor. My intention is to train this year and follow a course that will lead to a corporate prop/jet department in the NYC area, or possibly charter or fractional. I can swing the money and am willing to pay my dues at a regional or as a CFI if necessary, but I need to know the best route to take. And also: is this possible, given my circumstances? I've been considering ATP or Flight Safety. The later is closer (their Trenton, NJ facility is near NYC) but FSA seems to have a better path to corporate aviation through its business jet direct program. I have a wife and family that are not portable, so Florida might be an imposition on them if I were to disappear for a year. Appreciate any thoughts/views.

January 28th, 2007, 14:43	#2
SteveC Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: GRR Posts: 8,435	Re: Career Path for Corporate? It's certainly possible to make the switch. Corporate/fractional is a good choice for those of us with a little gray hair, because many operators like the maturity aspect. (One disclaimer: the title "corporate" can cover a huge specturm of operations. I'm going to primarily talk about the nicer corporate flight departments that pay well and have good quality of life. Corporate could also mean a single pilot flying someone's Cirrus, but I don't consider that to be an end goal type job for purposes of our discussion.) The best road is really tough to give advice about. There are many ways to get here, and all have pluses and minuses. The most important requirement about landing a good corporate gig is knowing people. Networking is king. You need to have someone (that knows you, likes you, and is willing to put their name on the line for you) be the person that says "I know someone" when a chief pilot somewhere has an opening and asks his guys "who do you know...". The next part of the equation is having the hours and experience to fill the position. It is not at all unusual to see starting corporate turboprop or light jets requiring 1500 to 2500 hours. These are the first stage corporate jobs that will position you for the final end-goal operation. The really good jobs will require 3,500 to 5,000 hours as a minimum. A few guys will get lucky and get hired to ride right seat in an entry level job with 500-700 hours, but I sure wouldn't count on it. What's the best way to get the hours and experience? I've seen guys go either charter or freight or regional to get to corporate. All of those routes take a minimum number of hours to get started, though, and Instructing is by far the most common route to getting those initial hours and experience. (There are some other options, but for the sake of this discussion we'll stick with CFI'ing.) Instructing can be a good opportunity to begin networking if you can position yourself somewhere that gets you a lot of exposure to the charter and corporate guys on the airport in the area that you want to live and work. A larger FBO at an airport with lots of light jet traffic would be ideal. You'll quickly develop contacts, and you might be surprised how quickly a door will open somewhere. Might only be a chance to ride right seat once a month in a King Air, but it is still a foot in the door. One problem with instructing at an FBO is that some are not as busy as others and it may take a while to get a decent amount of hours built up. I really like the idea of doing your initial training at a local FBO (maybe instrument, multi-engine and commercial), then deciding whether to continue doing your Instructor training with them if they are set up to handle it, or moving on to a bigger place to finish up. It is possible to do your training at an FBO at a fast pace and much cheaper than an academy, but it takes planning, dedication, and a willing instructor. For the next step in experience building you will be looking at one of the three routes I listed above. Charter has an advantage in that you have a lot of opportunities to meet corporate pilots since you are spending tons of time in FBO's with them. You will get a lot of experience in the kinds of flying, and especially the other skills that are needed in corporate ops such as being very flexible with changing itineraries, keeping the plane clean, handling catering, flight planning, getting the coffee and papers, and a huge commitent to attention to detail. The down side can be that you don't get as many flying hours (500 per year is a pretty good clip for pax charter flying) so it might take a little longer to get to the next stage. Freight is probably the best exposure to all-weather flying, building instrument skills, and PIC decision making of any kind of flying and everyone knows it. Downside is that it can be tougher to network since you are often on a different schedule (night versus day) than the corporate guys. There are also a few people that think that freight guys have a cowboy mentality that may not fit well with corporate flight cultures. It is a misconception, but still could be a factor. Regional flying is probably the quickest way to build up total time and get turbine experience. Regional guys might fly 900-1,000 hours a year, so less than two years would give you enough time to qualify for a decent corporate job rather than 3 to 4 years in charter and entry level corporate. You can usually get started flying at a regional much sooner (600 to 1000 hours total time) than flying freight or charter (1200 hours minimum for IFR part 135). The problem here is two-fold though. First is that you will be so busy flying the line and trying to make ends meet that you won't have much opportunity to make the acquaintances you need for the corporate step. All of your time at the airport is spent in the passenger terminal instead of across the field at the FBO's. The second problem is that regional flying is different than corporate flying in regards to the duties involved, and sometimes airline guys don't take well to all the extraneous duties and people skills that are involved in flying corporate. Because of this a few corporate operators tend to steer away from regional guys. Again, mostly a misconception but one that some people might have to deal with. The FSA program where you spend time in the right seat in sim sessions could be a good way (make that a great way) to network with corporate guys, but I see a couple of negatives that you should keep in mind for your situation. First, the guys that you sim with will be from all over the country, not just the NYC area. Those contacts won't do you much good if you want to stay local. The second problem is that the sim flying can be sporadic, and is not actual flight time so it doesn't add to that all important Total (flight) Time column in the logbook. If you could combine some local instructing with filling in as a right seater at a local Flight Safety, you might have a good combination. Not sure how easy it is to pull that combination together, and what things you would need to take into consideration to make it work, but I suppose it could be a viable option. Fractional operations, as opposed to corporate, might give you a few more options. Listed minimums are around 2500 hours (although probably 3500+ might be more typical), and a recommendation from an inside pilot is a big plus for getting to the interview stage. Going to fractional from regional is probably slightly easier than to corporate, so a good fast track might be CFI/regional/fractional(/then on to corporate if you want to). Living in NYC area gives you another good reason to consider fractional, and that is that most of the fractional operators have bases/gateways in New York. Lots of pluses and minuses to consider, and none of this information should be considered an absolute. For almost everything that I have said above there are exceptions. My best advice is to ask questions and do a lot of "what-if" thinking. Good luck. Oh, and the most important bit of advice I can give you is to just enjoy the journey. Have fun every day, enjoy the kind of flying that you are doing right then and there, and don't fixate so much on the end goal that you miss the best parts of why we do this job. __________________ . Life is painful. Suffering is optional. Last edited by SteveC; January 28th, 2007 at 15:15.

January 28th, 2007, 15:02	#3
n57flyguy Old Skool Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 3,724	Re: Career Path for Corporate? Awsome post Steve. __________________ -Paul It ain't always 65 and sunny

January 28th, 2007, 19:28	#4
Asta Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 134	Re: Career Path for Corporate? Steve -- I second FlyGuy: great post, and thanks for the really solid advice. Certainly helps to get the inside scoop, as I'm an outsider to all this. You confirmed my belief that luck and hard work are probably required in equal measure here. The flight school website hype, of course, makes it all sound so easy: "From Zero Time to Astronaut in Three Weeks . . . !" Instinctively I knew the road was going to be a little harder. My thinking is that I'm too old (no gray yet!) to start a traditional airline career. I'm never going to pilot a 757 with so many younger, hungry pilots already on the ladder. On the other hand I'm smart, hard-working, love to fly, don't expect a million bucks, and am willing to put in the time and money to find a decent aviation job that allows me to stay where I am. Corporate/charter/frax appeals to me as it seems less rigid than airline flying -- not to mention I love bizjets. Corny as this may sound, my main concern is to be the best pilot I can be. After I got my PPL, I gave up flying for a while mainly because I knew that with work/family commitments, I was never going to get enough hours to feel comfortable putting my kids in the back seat of a rental C172. So, if I'm going to do this, I want to do more than just collect tickets to hang on my wall. Therefore, to get started, what's the "best" school? By "best" I mean "best for someone in my position"? I've narrowed it to ATP-Trenton or Flight Safety. On the one hand ATP is cheaper, closer, gives more multi-time, is a great entree to the regionals, and offers an airline transition program that allows you to build more time (in lieu of teaching), tho for another $22K. On the other hand FSA has a better (deservedly?) reputation and has a Business Jet Direct program that allows you to focus on bizjets and to teach at one of their bizjet training facilities, two of which are in the NY area. I guess FSA would take longer and with the program I would be away from home for several months more; this might not be acceptable to my wife (or to me!) However, if it is the "best" route, I will give it serious consideration. If you're saying the the best route is to go regional right off the bat, then ATP might be the choice as it seems well situated to getting its graduates interviews and jobs in regional airlines that serve my part of the country. (I hope I could get job with a carrier having a hub that would allow me to continue to live at home, at least a few days a week!) If, however, it is desireable to get an "in" with those who fly for corporate departments, then FSA might be the way to go, inasmuch as their program seems directed at just that. Decisions, decisions. One of the biggets points of contention on this forum is which school is best?/which is the best route to take to an aviation career? Everyone seems to have a different answer, and I suppose they are all right in their own way. My gut tells me to stick with first principles: learn the craft and pay your dues. I suppose at the end of the day either ATP or FSA would be a good choice, but I do want to avoid dropping a load of money, spending months away from home, and then finding I have no prospects for employment or that the only jobs open to me are those that require I move across the country. I'm sure I would profit from the experience and become a better pilot, but I do want to know that I'm getting on a career path that is workable with my situation and desires. Thanks a million for the help. Really appreciate it.

January 28th, 2007, 20:33	#5
West270 Newbie Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 22	Re: Career Path for Corporate? Steve, You have some great advice there. Thank you. You have helped me more than you ever know. West

January 28th, 2007, 21:27	#7
stuckingfk Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: El Forko Grande Posts: 2,574	Re: Career Path for Corporate? Steve gave some great advice. I'd never have the patience to type that much. I've had two corporate positions now in the past 16 moths so I'll share some of my advice. There's so many things you can do to get into corporate side it can be frustrating. I wish there were a "printed guide" stating what exactly needs to be done to become a corporate pilot, but there isn't. Here's my opinion (and just that) on what you should do: -Get your training done locally. -Spend as little as possible -Get your CFI, CFII, and MEI -Make sure you get a job flying a twin -Get a 1000 hours of multi PIC -Do this as quick as you can while enjoying yourself along the way -Don't go to Flight Safety (their program, while a good one, isn't worth it till you have at least 1000 hours total time. Flight Safety requires that amount of total time to get typed). -If you want to do Fractional, go to a regional and build your time quickly. -Network, Network, Network Good luck, and if you have any questions please ask.

January 29th, 2007, 04:13	#8
TexasFlyer Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 370	Re: Career Path for Corporate? Steve, kudos to you on a great post. As a professional aviation recruiter for several national flight departments and FBOs, your post is exactly as I would have told it.

January 29th, 2007, 13:28	#12
dieselman1220 Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 56	Re: Career Path for Corporate? There is some awesome advice here, and I second that networking is the key. Also coming up through the ranks i was always told that aviation is a small world you will never know who you will see again so dont ever burn a bridge any where. Its not till I have started spending alot of time at FBOs that I have come to see all this it really is true.

January 29th, 2007, 21:23	#14
ananoman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 916	Re: Career Path for Corporate? FSA is a good school, but I am not sure it would work in your situation. If you are willing to live in FL for a while, it may be an option. If you try to do this, I would do most of your ratings, including commercial single engine locally. Then you could go to FSA and do your commercial multi add on and your CFI. It would then be easier to get hired at FSA as an instructor (the sim part of the interview is in a Frasca and you use their proceedures for the Seminole). If you are an instructor you will probably spend another year down there building time. They probably still have their instructors sign a contract to instruct for 800 hours. Right now they are probably pretty busy so this won't take as long as you would think. As a bonus, they also will pay for your CFII and MEI if they hire you. After all of this you will be ready for one of their internships, if you are interested. Each center is different, but if you pick the right one, you will stay pretty busy. After you are there a year, you are supposed to get a type rating. Every center is different however, you may get typed right away or even get more than one rating. Since NY is where their corporate offices are, you will probably have to wait a year. Some have left FSA for the internships after getting their CFI ratings, but with only a few hundred hours, they won't type you. So, you will still have to instruct to get that total time up. This may be an option to get you home quicker though. As Steve has said, low time and Corporate don't mix well in the same sentence. Even with an ATP and a type rating, you probably won't get hired by a corporate flight department. It is more likely you will get picked up by a charter company. Hours, pay and QOL can vary widely. Some really abuse their pilots and pay crap. Others are pretty good places to work. I did the internship and am currently flying charter. I like my job and I am paid well. I work two weeks on and then get one week off. We don't do late night call outs (if the phone doesn't ring, I can start drinking at 1800 hrs) and usually adhere to the 14 hr duty day. We can fly home empty after we have timed out, but are not expected or encouraged to. It is our option. Even during my two weeks on, I don't fly everyday. So, I get a lot of free time. One disadvantage is I only fly about 400 hrs a year. There are corporate jobs out there where the pilots make a lot of money and fly all over the world, but it takes a while to get there. And, there are some disadvantages. Some flight departents do the same flights over and over to the same factories/business locations. If you go international you may be gone for weeks at a time. Also, some suprisingly large corporations have A-hole chief pilots and a pretty unhappy pilot group. But, by the time you get to that point, you will probably have networked enough to know where these are. Since you probably want to stay as close to your family as possible, you may want to go to ATP and then get on with a regional with a domicile in NY. Then you could try to get on with Net Jets or another fractional. After you are there, you may decide to stay. They have it pretty good after their last contract. If not, you will be flying corporate type aircraft and will have the skills that a flight department will be looking for. NY and Delaware both have quite a few flight departments you can hound after you get the experience. __________________ My observation is that those with an extreme knowledge deficit have a real hard time believing that anyone else knows something they don't. That's why the knowledge deficit never goes away. - tgrayson

January 30th, 2007, 21:02	#15
Asta Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 134	Re: Career Path for Corporate? Great advice everybody. Great forum. Thanks.

January 30th, 2007, 21:40	#16
LoadMasterC141 Old Skool Join Date: May 2006 Location: Live in Temple, TX - From Ithaca, NY - Wish I was on an island in Fiji Posts: 1,909	Re: Career Path for Corporate? Wow Steve. You are the man as usual! The world needs more helpful people like yourself. Cheers.

January 31st, 2007, 02:10	#17
TexasFlyer Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 370	Re: Career Path for Corporate? Asta, age will not be a factor for you on the Charter 135 side to start. If might even work in your favor if you demonstrate great customer service and networking skills. Then keep on networking since if you speak with the right people you may eventually land a great Part 91 Corporate gig. Best of luck to you! I'm going down the same path to try to land a good corproate pilot gig and will start working toward this at the age of 34. And with all I know about how to get there as a recruiter myself, I'm still confused! There may be a best way to land the airline gig (CFI to Regional to Major), but there is no direct or best path to corporate.

January 31st, 2007, 21:54	#18
SuperStarFlyer Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Vero Beach, FL Posts: 38	Re: Career Path for Corporate? This is probably one of the best threads I have read since being on JC. Thanks guys for telling it how it is. Great advice! __________________ "What is the similarity between air traffic controllers and pilots? If a pilot screws up, the pilot dies; If ATC screws up, .... The pilot dies."

February 1st, 2007, 11:01	#19
flyTotheSky Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: LUK Posts: 377	Re: Career Path for Corporate? I too would like to go corporate one day. Right now I'm a 400 hr CFI, junior in college so I have a ways to go..... All my buddies want to join the regional rat race but I feel like if I do that, it will lesson my opportunities down the road to get on with a Fortune 500 department. I feel like they see "airline" on the resume and it immediately gets black-listed. Is this the case still? Or is it pretty much knowing the right people? I know people make jumps from the regionals to the fracs but it must be pretty tough to make the jump from regional to a part 91 department. I know some people on here fly for the fractionals. How do you all like it? NetJets seems like a great company and they are still growing. I saw they just placed an order for a bunch of Hawkers. How do the fracs compare to a part 91 department? The 7 day on/7 day off thing doesn't sound that bad....? Well in the end, it seems like the easiest way to fly a biz jet is to run to the regionals, build the time, and send the resume out to the fracs... I just wish there was a better way because I'm not willing to sell my soul to fly an RJ...

February 1st, 2007, 18:36	#21
flyTotheSky Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: LUK Posts: 377	Re: Career Path for Corporate? NJA_Capt, Thanks for taking the time to answer some of my questions. In your opnion what would be the best route at my point in my career (21 yr old CFI) to get a job eventually at NetJets. I'm 21 years old and still have another year of college left, which I'm not complaining about . What sort of time does the HR dept. like to see, if there is any preference? I imagine you get a lot of guys jumping ship from the regionals... Probably a fair mix of 135, mil, and retired 121 folk? Is there a better route to take? Another question... You mentioned that QOL is pretty good. With the 7/7 schedule, is it possible to trade/drop trips if need be. How about vacation and holidays? Do you have to be pretty senior in the company to get a fair amount of these days off? Any travel benefits? Thanks again

February 1st, 2007, 22:34	#23
flyTotheSky Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: LUK Posts: 377	Re: Career Path for Corporate? Great info Cap! You mentioned getting positive space travel benefits when you are traveling to work. Do a lot of guys there commute or live in base. Does the commute really eat into your days off? Let's say you live in Chicago for example. I know NetJets doesn't have a pilot domicile there...but do they even allow commuters?