Southern Air Systems

[sargeanb]

I was caught off guard when perusing CTFL350.com, as SAS is hiring FOs with well below my times. I've had my eye on them for quite a while since they're based in Tampa (my hometown), but they always required high minimums. I've got six months left here to finish my MBA, but it is VERY tempting to apply over there, though I know by the time I graduate the jobs will be gone I was wondering if anyone had inside info on them, mainly the schedules and bases (I know the main base is in Tampa, but their aircraft are all over the US). Thanks.

-Brock

[wheelsup]

I do not know the whole story on them, to be fair. I was called for a Challenger 604 SIC position after applying. Pay was to be upper TEENS (like $18k-$19k is what they told me 1.5 years ago, might've gone up a bit since). I hear CA pay is low to mid 30's. It's the "regionals" of the 135 world so to speak.

Also I ended up doing some research on flameinfo. Lots of good stuff there if you wade thru the rumors. Here's some highlights:

My current co-pilot used to fly for them. He did not like it at all, QOL, pay,etc, all sucked. What really shocked me was that the entire time he was there, he never got to touch the controls of the aircraft as a FO, apparently they are there strictly to raise the gear.

PS, they tell you the pay start in the 20's but then they end up paying in the high teens. they lie about everything to make it look a lot better than it really is.

A while back I inquired about the CE-650 co-captain job they posted about a hundred times. Low 20's to start......not even close to industry average. They just posted on climbto350 AGAIN looking for copilots, and Beechjet and Hawker captains due to "rapid growth". From what I've seen and heard about this place, run away FAST.

A friend of mine got hired there not too long ago but not long enough to give specific details. Thanks!
--
Ask your friend how much he makes. Ask him what Captains make. Ask him about the working conditions. Ask him about how they can have people flying as SIC in jets with ABSOLUTELY NO TRAINING, as required by 61.55. Ask him how many aircraft those Captains that have been there more than 3 years are qualified in, and required to fly on a regular basis(some only fly one, others fly 4 on a regular basis). Ask him why they want(but rarely get) pilots current and qualified in the type they plan to put them in(hint - it has something to do with training costs, which is a part of business). Once you have these answers, ask more questions if you're still interested.

I inquired about the CE-650 job they were offering earlier, and they were offering low 20's for pay. Needless to say that was not pursued further.

Make your own decision....

Me? Even though I BADLY wanted to get back to central FL, I couldn't accept a position with a company like that. I was on my first week of ground school at a regional when they called and I elected to stay. I think I made a good choice. I heard from another one of their pilots who basically used them to get a type and move on. They have pretty heavy attrition.

[sargeanb]

Wheelsup,

Thanks for the quick reply...I had the same thoughts. I'd love to stay in FL, but if all of that is true, it sounds pretty rough. It appears to be a pretty reputable place, I've seen their facilities and aircraft, but high teens is less than I'm getting now as a CFI. I was also wondering what kind of schedule they have, if they work you to the bone for that pay...I DO have a wife that I'd like to see on occasion Thanks for the quick info...I appreciate it.

-Brock

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by sargeanb

Wheelsup,

Thanks for the quick reply...I had the same thoughts. I'd love to stay in FL, but if all of that is true, it sounds pretty rough. It appears to be a pretty reputable place, I've seen their facilities and aircraft, but high teens is less than I'm getting now as a CFI. I was also wondering what kind of schedule they have, if they work you to the bone for that pay...I DO have a wife that I'd like to see on occasion Thanks for the quick info...I appreciate it.

-Brock

Think of this like one of those 'what comes next' puzzles.

Low Pay + Florida + Part 135 + Management Company + ______ = SAS

A) Good Schedules
B) OK Schedules
C) Bad Schedules
D) Schedules? What are those?

My $$ goes with answer "D". I just can't see a company starting corporate FO's in a Challanger 604 at <$20k/yr as having good schedules. I'd bet you'd get at most 4 hard days off/month, if any.

[ready2fly]

Brock, I'm from Tampa and several of my friends either currently fly or have flown for SAS. I had my resume in before I got on with American Eagle, but SAS wasn't hiring then.

One of my former instructers is the head of training for them (or was). If you want to build time, get a type rating or two, then move on, it's a great company.

However, the pay is low and it's feast or famine on the flying end. They either fly your butt off or you barely fly at all.

I believe the starting pay is somewhere $25K but that might be for a King Air or Chieftain "Captain". For SIC, it's probably a lot less than that.

As for the management over there, I've not heard great nor horrible things.

Best of luck and keep us informed. Drop me a PM if you want my buddy's name.

Stan

[EatSleepFly]

Originally Posted by ready2fly

If you want to build time, get a type rating or two, then move on, it's a great company.

Nice "who cares, F-You-I-Got-Mine attitude." That might be all fine and good in regional la la land, but other parts of the industry are a lot "smaller." How is someone flying similar equipment somewhere else supposed to negotiate/maintain a livable wage, when a turd company like SAS is paying what they do, and people are flocking there just to get a type/some time, and live in FL- the land of absolute bottom feeding operators.

[ready2fly]

Originally Posted by EatSleepFly

Nice "who cares, F-You-I-Got-Mine attitude." That might be all fine and good in regional la la land, but other parts of the industry are a lot "smaller." How is someone flying similar equipment somewhere else supposed to negotiate/maintain a livable wage, when a turd company like SAS is paying what they do, and people are flocking there just to get a type/some time, and live in FL- the land of absolute bottom feeding operators.

Eatsleep - look, I'm not going to turn this into a flame war because you don't like the reality of why people go to places like SAS.

Truth be told, places like SAS use pilots like toilet paper because pilots will put up with it.

If you don't think I'm living that reality myself in my "regionall la la land" you're kidding yourself, bro.

I stand by my statement - if the original poster is looking for a place to build time, get a type rating or two, then move on to make more money, then SAS is a great place.

I'll add - from personal knowledge - it is NOT a place to make a career!! Period.

I make no apologies if that doesn't sit well is someone. It's simply the facts.

Stan

[EatSleepFly]

Oh I agree with you, it's probably a fine place to go get some time and a type. But at what expense? People should be telling places like SAS to shove their ~$30k Challenger CAPTAIN pay up their collective ass sideways. Otherwise they're going to drag others down to their level. And you getting on here and saying what a "great" place it is, is probably giving people who don't know any better the wrong idea. There is nothing great about taking a job at a place like that.

But no, everyone wants to live in the god forsaken dump that is FL and get jobs that they're not qualified for, so hey, why not sell out the industry.

[wheelsup]

I have a dumb question, Mr. ESF. How is this company any different then AMF, where LR-35 FO's start at $26k and CA's start at $45k with small increases there after? Industry average in the 91 world would be around 60%-100% more than those figures. Pot meet kettle.

And I believe the 604 CA pay is mid 40's from the limited knowledge I have of the company. Not that the 35 and 604 should even be classified as being the same pay rate though. Just an FYI, not to be taken as gospel!!!

[EatSleepFly]

You're right. Thanks for the attitude adjustment, Mr. Regional Pilot.

God knows you all are paid what you deserve.

P.S.- I don't fly a Lear.

[wheelsup]

Not saying you do. But others at your company do. And in general they aren't doing anything different then the people at SAS are doing - building time to move to a better job. But I understand and agree where you are coming from, yet we must all start somewhere. I doubt one lone 135 company is controlling the salary of the corporate world.

P.S. We are paid what we can negotiate. Unfortunately, we don't have much negotiating power at the moment!!!

[SteveC]

How about this thread not grow into any more of an insult fest, 'kay?

[wheelsup]

he started it

[EatSleepFly]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

P.S. We are paid what we can negotiate. Unfortunately, we don't have much negotiating power at the moment!!!

Exactly. How can you negotiate better pay when management can point to some other company and say, "well, they get paid this, and people are banging down their doors to work there, so take it or leave it." (Gross oversimplification, of course, but you get the idea).

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by EatSleepFly

Exactly. How can you negotiate better pay when management can point to some other company and say, "well, they get paid this, so take it or leave it." (Gross oversimplification, of course, but you get the idea).

Absolutely, and our union is going thru the same frustration now. The company wanted us to come up with a 76 seat jet "rate". They expected us to fly them for the same we are paid for the 50 seat version (Skywest? who said that?). When the union said no, they said OK we're done talking.

Another example - from our MEC - when it comes time for our union to negotiate pay, the company also throws a copy of Mesa's contract on the table and says this is what you have to work with. It's frustrating, to say the least, but I am PROUD of the union for doing this. We have a pretty strong one IMO.

I don't blame Skywest or Mesa pilots for this though. To place blame on them would be unwarrented and a waste of time and high blood pressure that could better be used for other activities. I encourage their contract talks and hope they can clean house come contract time, because we are guaranteed 2% in pay over the top 6 carriers. Mesa dropped my pay ~$1.00/hr (and that was just as a first year FO) last March. Hopefully they can up their pay so I can get a raise too !

[ananoman]

Besides the pay, the big red flag here is the possiblity of using unqualified FOs. Other places somehow get away with this, and it always comes back to bite someone. Usually places that do this don't pay any attention to duty times, weather minimums, fuel reserves, etc. Since the pay is so low, only losers that can't go anywhere else stay. One of them is probably the chief pilot. Just look at Grand Air in Toledo to see how this usually turns out.

The sad thing is, over time they will not save money. Typing people who leave asap is not cheap. Lawn darting airplanes isn't either.

[ready2fly]

Originally Posted by EatSleepFly

Oh I agree with you, it's probably a fine place to go get some time and a type. But at what expense? People should be telling places like SAS to shove their ~$30k Challenger CAPTAIN pay up their collective ass sideways. Otherwise they're going to drag others down to their level. And you getting on here and saying what a "great" place it is, is probably giving people who don't know any better the wrong idea. There is nothing great about taking a job at a place like that.

But no, everyone wants to live in the god forsaken dump that is FL and get jobs that they're not qualified for, so hey, why not sell out the industry.

ESF, I totally agree with you that the above should happen, but let's be honest with ourselves - it just ain't gonna happen.

Why? There are tens of thousands of (and I don't mean to insult any age group here) young pilots who have never worked in the real world and think that $20K for flying right seat is like hitting the lottery.

Those of us who have made a liveable wage in other professions, then took the quantum leap BACKWARDS financially - agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments.

But, there's those tens of thousands of wannabe pilots out there who can and will work for basically nadda..... and employers know this and thus have all the leverage.

If you want to lead the revolution, by all means, bro - get it rollin'. But don't be surprised and hurt if you're in a very, very small group.

Just MHO.

R2F