corporate salaried or daily rate?

[KHartman84]

I recently got a call from a student I instructed... he decided after getting his lisence that he instead wanted to hire someone to fly him and his business execs around in his own jet. He told me that he may be purchasing a 98' Citation Bravo for his company. He knew that my career aspiration was to fly corporate and wanted to know if I wanted in on a first officer Job, hopefully eventually leading to a chief pilot job over time. I have two questions I was hoping some of you corporate pilots may be able to answer:

Question 1: Do most startup, or smaller business corporate Jobs pay salary or a daily rate? (I Assume larger companies typically offer salary)

Question 2: I currently have around 1500 hours but only 10 hours Multi... I know that for SIC I only need the 3 to/ldgs PIC And to be familiar with the systems and the airplane to log the time, but would it be unreasonable to say that after initial training (simcom, flight safety, ATP) and a few hundred hours SIC in the Jet that I could probably fly in the left?

He plans to hire a contract pilot to fly in the left until I log the time, but I was hoping I could get an Idea of about how much time typical insurance companies might require.

[sorrygottarunway]

I had a "corporate" gig myself back while I was instructing, and it was a daily rate: it depends on how much the plane is to be flown- sometimes a 90k salary is not feasible if you only fly once a month.

Some thing you want to ask yourself: is this a serious offer from the guy, or just a "I'm trying to be a nice guy and give you a big break." Will he have you as a professional first officer (by that I mean, certified to fly the Citation with initial training from CAESimuflite or FlightSafety), or is it just to ride along and get experience. Sometimes private people (read: some guys on their own) want to buy a jet, buy one, find out the gobs of money to finance, pay for fuel, taxes, insurance, maintenance, etc, and end up selling later on (maybe in a year). I don;t know the guys you are talking about, so thats your call. For companies that fall into financial distress, the first thing to go is usually the corporate flight department.

The requirements for you to move to the left seat will also depend on the insurance that he has for the airplane, which will require the type rating and some amount of required MEL time and total PIC/total time.

[KHartman84]

The guy owns a property managemnt and construction company, and Ive done research, the company has been doing VERY well and the owner is one of the biggest investors in the city. He understands that I will need to go to flight training, and he told me he would pay for it before I even fly in the right seat. The guy who he's asked to fly in the left seat is also certified to teach in the citation 500 series. I DO believe he is serious about the offer, and I do realise that the flight department would be the first to go, but Like I said Ive done my research and will continue to do so until I decide to accept the offer... I also got an offer from a similar company (one of 2005 business week "hot growth companies) to fly a cessna 340 part 135 and part 91, also a new startup at the airport I instruct at ... so Ive been doing a lot of thinking.

[RynoB]

Having that many opportunities is a nice problem to have. Just stick with your plan of researching all the companies thoroughly.

[KHartman84]

I know what you mean! I was talking with my girlfriend about this the other night, and I told her that we are def. in the right place at a good time right now... two new corporate hangers were built over the winter (built by company #1 above, managed by the flight school I teach at) and there are a few companies looking to reside in this area, so more opportunites will come.

[jonnyb]

My opinion:

I've heard this line a million times. That by no means concludes that this guy is just blowing smoke, just be aware. It doesn't really matter how well a small(er) company is doing; acquiring, maintaining and flying around a corporate jet is extremely expensive. Something you said that makes me wonder: why would "he" be considering you for a "future" chief pilot position and not the Captain he's hiring? Sounds odd.

Keeping all the above in mind, salary or daily rate should all depend on how often the company is utilizing your services. If you are flying 10 or more days per month then a salary between $36K-$45K would be appropriate for the SIC position along with Initial SIC training from FSI or Simuflite. An appropriate day rate would be around $250-$300 per day plus ALL expenses.

Hope this helps man, good luck to ya!

[sorrygottarunway]

Originally Posted by KHartman84

The guy owns a property managemnt and construction company, and Ive done research, the company has been doing VERY well and the owner is one of the biggest investors in the city. He understands that I will need to go to flight training, and he told me he would pay for it before I even fly in the right seat. The guy who he's asked to fly in the left seat is also certified to teach in the citation 500 series. I DO believe he is serious about the offer, and I do realise that the flight department would be the first to go, but Like I said Ive done my research and will continue to do so until I decide to accept the offer... I also got an offer from a similar company (one of 2005 business week "hot growth companies) to fly a cessna 340 part 135 and part 91, also a new startup at the airport I instruct at ... so Ive been doing a lot of thinking.

Sounds like it could be a good deal! If you can instruct at the same time, then it probably is no more difficult a commute!

[KHartman84]

[quote=jonnyb]My opinion:

Something you said that makes me wonder: why would "he" be considering you for a "future" chief pilot position and not the Captain he's hiring? Sounds odd.

[quote]

The guy in the left seat is a "contract" pilot, I shoulda mentioned that earlier, and I know the guy, He's also an flight examiner. He owns and operates his own charter company, but also offers short and long term contract positions for charters and corporations that need pilots when other crewmembers are on medical leave, or when they are filling pilot positions. But thanks for pointing that out, I will look into it to be sure.. that is kinda why I asked the question "how long might it take to get in the left seat" Because It doesnt really make sense to me for them to hire a contract pilot for too long, Im just wondering if going from co-pilot to captain in less than a few hundred hours in type is reasonable? Keep in mind I might still be flight instructing on the side to build upon my total time (currently just under 1500).

[jonnyb]

Of course it totally depends on your skills, but I would say that with 2200-2500 TT and at least 500 in type, you would be qualified to act as PIC of a Bravo, however, the insurance company might have other ideas. That's the kicker.

[RynoB]

I just had 500TT when I was hired by my company. I spent 1 year in the right seat before I could be PIC on empty legs. After another year, I could fly PIC as long as I was with one of two specified pilots (specified by the insurance company). After another year, I was approved for unrestricted PIC ops in our plane. This was in a Citation CJ1. We are now in a CJ3. It all depends on the insurance company and the type of policy your employer has. If you have any specific questions, feel free to PM me.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by jonnyb

Keeping all the above in mind, salary or daily rate should all depend on how often the company is utilizing your services. If you are flying 10 or more days per month then a salary between $36K-$45K would be appropriate for the SIC position along with Initial SIC training from FSI or Simuflite. An appropriate day rate would be around $250-$300 per day plus ALL expenses.

Hope this helps man, good luck to ya!

Depending upon where he is located might change those rates somewhat. Those are probably good numbers for Cali, but midwest would be more like $24K-$32K for an SIC with his times. Day rate commensurately lower as well.

From what I've seen it would not be unusual for insurance companies to want to see as much as 4000 hours before they will insure someone as PIC with no restrictions, even in a Citation. 3000 hours would probably be more typical, although you may be able to work a deal once the insurance company knows you a little better and you have plenty of time in type (see Ryan's post above).

[jonnyb]

Right Steve, I thought about that. As far as salary, if men and women are accepting much less than my posted numbers, they're selling themselves short. I require the same salary wherever I go as a PIC and so should FO's. Geography shouldn't have much to do with pilot salary. Know what I mean Steve?

As far as insurance companies go, it's all in the relationship. My good friend and former first officer is now flying as sole PIC in Learjet 31a and 55 for a So. Cal charter company with about 2500TT. Granted most of his time (about 2200 hours) is in jets, but we're talking Learjet, Citations (500 series) will require less time. This is just an abstract example but it serves my point.

[KHartman84]

Hey thanks alot Guys! You have been great help! Im gonna keep researching, he told me he would call me in a week or two when the plane is purchased. keep the posts coming if anyone wants to comment.

[RynoB]

Originally Posted by jonnyb

Geography shouldn't have much to do with pilot salary. Know what I mean Steve?

I may have missed your point, but I believe geography has a lot to do with salary, pilot or not. I live in Oklahoma City where the cost of living is significantly lower than the East or West. It is even significantly lower than Dallas. Cost of living impacts salaries in most jobs. IMHO, flying should not be any different.

[aloft]

*raises hand*

Okay, I have a question. How does someone with 500 TT get a right-seat jet job?

[jonnyb]

Originally Posted by RynoB

I may have missed your point, but I believe geography has a lot to do with salary, pilot or not. I live in Oklahoma City where the cost of living is significantly lower than the East or West. It is even significantly lower than Dallas. Cost of living impacts salaries in most jobs. IMHO, flying should not be any different.

It may be your opinion but thank God it's not the case!

Geography most often doesn't effect pilot's salaries. Airline pilots are the most obvious example; you can live anywhere you want and the pay doesn't change.

[RynoB]

Originally Posted by jonnyb

It may be your opinion but thank God it's not the case!

Geography most often doesn't effect pilot's salaries. Airline pilots are the most obvious example; you can live anywhere you want and the pay doesn't change.

Yes, but we are talking about a corporate job in this case

[RynoB]

Originally Posted by aloft

*raises hand*

Okay, I have a question. How does someone with 500 TT get a right-seat jet job?

It's called right place at the right time and knowing the right people. When I got the job, they had a King Air 90. After 3 months they upgraded to the CJ1. The insurance company didn't want to keep me around to fly in the jet, but my company was adamant about keeping me since they had already hired me.

[Stone Cold]

Originally Posted by aloft

*raises hand*

Okay, I have a question. How does someone with 500 TT get a right-seat jet job?

I know I know...go to a regional

Sorry, saw the shot and had to take it. From what I've heard, in the corporate world, it's all about who you know, as stated above.

[Jason]

KHartman - pay attention to what JohnnyB is saying - he hit the nail on the head..I've seen this exact scenario at least half a dozen times over my career........company owner gets PPL, company owner "falls in love" with flying, company owner decides his company needs a jet, they buy a jet, and then the owner realizes that the acquisition cost is actually the cheap part of operating a jet, jet is sold within 6 months. It happens all the time.

I'm not saying don't pursue the opportunity - it's a great opportunity, almost too good to pass up - so take it and have fun but always have a 'Plan B' in the back of your mind.

As was said before - plan on having a fairly good chunk of time in the jet before the insurance company is going to let you be PIC(it's probably not gonna' happen in 200 hours)....depending on how much they paln to fly the jet his could several years at a minimum. Have the owner call the insurance company - he can lay out the situation to the agent and the agent should be able to give him at least general answer as to when they will sign off on you as PIC - having that information will help you make a decision.

The Citation is a great airplane - have fun!

Jason

[KHartman84]

Hey Jason, thanks for the advice. And I will have a plan B in mind, I can def. see how and why this might happen, and so I will make sure I have something to fall back on... like I said, there are more opportunities I believe to come to our airport so who knows what might happen.

[jonnyb]

Originally Posted by RynoB

Yes, but we are talking about a corporate job in this case

Like I said, IT'S NOT THE CASE. Corporate, airline, it doesn't matter. Citation V captain pays around what it pays, GIV FO pays what it pays. It doesn't matter where you are. It does show how one can have a much better or worse standard of living depending on where they live and work.

Take the Professional Pilot Magazine salary survey that come out once per year; it has nothing to do with regions in which pilots are employed, just simply type of operation, position and aircraft type.

[RynoB]

Originally Posted by jonnyb

Like I said, IT'S NOT THE CASE. Corporate, airline, it doesn't matter. Citation V captain pays around what it pays, GIV FO pays what it pays. It doesn't matter where you are. It does show how one can have a much better or worse standard of living depending on where they live and work.

Take the Professional Pilot Magazine salary survey that come out once per year; it has nothing to do with regions in which pilots are employed, just simply type of operation, position and aircraft type.

The salary survey is an average. Notice that it also gives a high and low end.

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by KHartman84

Question 1: Do most startup, or smaller business corporate Jobs pay salary or a daily rate? (I Assume larger companies typically offer salary)

Depends what they want - if they want to own you then they pay you a salary, if they want to rent you by the day they pay a daily rate. If they're flying a lot then it's in the companies interest to pay you a salary and in your interest to be paid a daily rate. If they're not flying much then it's in your interest to be paid a salary and the companies interest to pay you a daily rate.

So there is no simple answer - I know large corporate organisations that have some of the flight crews on daily rate, I know small operations that have the crews on salary. Depends on the need.

And to pick up on another thread, anybody who thinks corporate pay isn't based on the region/state/city you're based in hasn't worked much in the corporate world. Corporations expect to pay people who live in Iowa less than they pay people who live in New York city, doesn't matter if they're janitors, secretaries, shop floor workers, managers or pilots.

[jonnyb]

Originally Posted by RynoB

The salary survey is an average. Notice that it also gives a high and low end.

Right. The High, low and medium salary ranges are in no way intended to represent geographic location. The three listed amounts are based on many other factors such as: experience, time required by the company or operation (other responsibilities etc.) and what salary an individual is willing to work for. I'm not saying that geographic location is "never" a factor with employers, it's our job as pilots to make sure that it isn't. Unfortunately shiny jet syndrome effects corporate, charter and fractional pilots as well.