NetJets and Flight Options Salaries.......

[jonnyb]

First off, this post isn't intended to offend anyone (NJA_Capt. etc.). It is intended to get information out in the open and to help determine why these professionals are willing to work for these salaries. I have been looking at this issue in detail and have been discussing it with fellow professional pilots I know. Everyone I talk to is amazed and bewildered at the extremely low pay scales NetJets and Flight Options pilots are willing to work for. This group may include other pilot groups such as Citation Shares etc., I'm not sure. Weather everyone believes this or not, these pilot groups are NOT helping the state of our industry. Particularly in regards to salaries.

I want more insight on this issue. I specifically request comments and info from working professional pilots. I'm not sure if there's something I'm missing or misunderstanding something. Frankly, I'm just pissed that this is going on, and on such a large scale. Someone, feel free to post the Scales. Please vote in the poll. Fire away........

[ready2fly]

Speaking from the viewpoint of someone who is just starting out and possibly aiming for a corporate gig, I think one of the reasons is that we have been told over and over and over that you NEVER say "no" when an opportunity knocks.

I'm sure for many, places like NetJets and Flight Options MAY be viewed as a means to an end for some pilots (not all)... meaning - a place to get that all-important jet time.

Take the not-so-high salary for a while in hopes of landing a bigger one down the line.

Also, we low time pilots have abslutely NO leverage to ask for more unless we ALL stand up and ask for more... and that's not going to happen because you've got pilots out there who will work for anything.... and companies know this, so they say "this is what we pay. Like it or not. If you don't, there are a thousand more pilots out there who will."

And they are right.

Sad, but that's how I see it.

R2F

[Citationkid]

Did we just have this arguement

[jonnyb]

You are right. I agree with you man. I should've been more specific. Although, in many instances I am including FO's in my complaint, the main issue is with the Captains. Especially the PIC's on the X's, Hawkers, Falcons etc. (the larger airplanes).

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]

Also, we low time pilots have abslutely NO leverage to ask for more unless we ALL stand up and ask for more... and that's not going to happen because you've got pilots out there who will work for anything.... and companies know this, so they say "this is what we pay. Like it or not. If you don't, there are a thousand more pilots out there who will."

And they are right.

Sad, but that's how I see it.

R2F

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. Now why do I get flamed when I say the same exact thing about the regionals (Great Lakes/CC/Mesa, etc)?

[jonnyb]

Your right Mike. Regarding the regionals this is correct. Most applicants have no leverage. Many regional newhires get hired with 800-1500TT. That's really low time, which means.....not too many options. I agree with you completely. However, Net Jets mins. are 2500TT. Totally different story and many more options. I think you will agree. R2F, does that make sense?

[jtrain609]

There are some other things to look at here independant of the payscales that fractional guys are working for. What's the QOL situation? How are the work rules? What benefits do you? Is the schedule killer? Honestly, I don't know the answers to these questions but knowing these things might put things in perspective.

Personally, I'd rather work 12 days a month and make $80,000 a year than work 20 days a month and make $150,000 a year. Time at home means a lot to me, and I'd gladly take a pay cut for that if I could have great work rules and be home more than the next guy. That's payment enough to ME. It might not be good enough for YOU but I don't think that money is everything and put a much higher value on quality time at home.

So does anyone have the answers to the above questions?

[ready2fly]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you completely. However, Net Jets mins. are 2500TT. Totally different story and many more options. I think you will agree. R2F, does that make sense?

[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed it does, bro. Thanks for clearing that up! Seriously!

Since you posed it, let me ask - say I get to 2500TT in a couple of years (I'm currently at a whopping 270, so....), and I've done some part-time charter stuff, maybe even gotten some King Air time....

..what would/should be my expectations salary wise?

I mean, where do we begin demanding more $$ for what we do? I ask guys like you, Johnnyb (and FalconCapt. and C650Capt.) because I honestly don't know the answer to that.

Thanks for the great topic!

R2F

[Citationkid]

www.fracstats.com that'll answer most of your question John.

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you completely. However, Net Jets mins. are 2500TT. Totally different story and many more options. I think you will agree. R2F, does that make sense?

[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed it does, bro. Thanks for clearing that up! Seriously!

Since you posed it, let me ask - say I get to 2500TT in a couple of years (I'm currently at a whopping 270, so....), and I've done some part-time charter stuff, maybe even gotten some King Air time....

..what would/should be my expectations salary wise?

I mean, where do we begin demanding more $$ for what we do? I ask guys like you, Johnnyb (and FalconCapt. and C650Capt.) because I honestly don't know the answer to that.

Thanks for the great topic!

R2F

[/ QUOTE ]

I've asked time and again, with no response mind you, where does "entry level" aviation job change to "professional" aviation job? I know how I feel about it, but I still haven't heard anyone else's take on it?

[ready2fly]

Cool, Mike - let's hope we get some thoughts on this.

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
Cool, Mike - let's hope we get some thoughts on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

For me IMO, it begins at the regionals (for those working up the airline ladder). You've got the equipment, the direct responsibility (of paying pax on your plane) in addition to the indirect responsibility you've always had for those on the ground (with your plane), you're wearing the uniform, you're operating in the environment, you're putting in the hours, you're living the lifestyle.......everything but making a liveable wage; not a rich-mans wage mind you, but merely a decent wage that I'd expect of any professional.

That doesn't compute with me.

[ready2fly]

And lately, it hasn't been computing with me. At my age, I can't see working for $19K for too long to fly a multi-million dollar jet with 20-70 folks in back.

Doesn't make sense.

But, there are (and no offense to single guys/girls) single guys/girls out there who have no real financial obligations who have no problem working for those kinds of wages.

I've been in the corporate/legal world for too long. I make a decent wage, but absolutely HATE what I do. I know I'm going to have to take a paycut - for a while -but there's got to be a payoff some time.

Where does it start?

[jonnyb]

Well, to answer your question R2F..............

If you're going the airline route, the decent (still not great) payoff comes when you're either a regional jet captain or a two years or more senior FO for a major airline. Let's keep in mind, these levels do take some time to attain. Especially the two year + major FO.

Now for the Corporate/Charter/Fractional route, uhhhhh.......mmmmmm......a yeah, no real answer. In other words, it totally depends! You could work for Joe Blow's Air Charter for 20 years, never fly anything bigger than a King Air 200 and Maybe make $60K. Or, you could get on with a great charter company, sit right seat in a Lear 24 for 2 years, fly captain for a year or two making $60K or so, then get hired (maybe) by Vulcan or GM flying Co-captain in a Challenger starting at $95K. Then finally retire from there making $160K. Or after 1000+ PIC turbine, one could get hired by SWA, JetBlue, Frontier etc. The possibilities are just endless.

To answer you last question R2F, once again tough question, but answerable. There are plenty of morons out there who will find some super eager, inexperienced (little or no turbine time) pilot to fly right seat in their Lear 24 or Citation V for $20K. However, there are plenty of $30K+ jet and/or turbo-prop jobs for entry level charter/corporate pilots (1500-2500TT, with little or no turbine time). I hope that makes some sense.

[ready2fly]

Great answers, all! Thanks Johnnyb!

I guess my questions are more rhetorical than anything else because I know that there are no definite answers in aviation.

It does sometimes seem daunting and frustrating knowing that I (or "we" = lower time pilots) have no bargaining levarage come salary negotiating time.

It'll all work out in the wash I guess. Network, network, network and make your own luck, I say.

Johnnyb, if you ever make it down to Tampa/St.Pete/Clearwater/Orlando/Lakeland area, give he a holler. It'd be great to meet you, bro!

R2F

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
Johnnyb, if you ever make it down to Tampa/St.Pete/Clearwater/Orlando/Lakeland area, give he a holler. It'd be great to meet you, bro!

R2F

[/ QUOTE ]

What am I, chopped liver? LOL!

[jdflight]

Yes, Mike. Yes, you are.

[jonnyb]

It's ok Mike, I'll come visit you too, when you get home that is.....

[jonnyb]

No prob, R2F. I hope my info helped makes things a leeetle bit clearer. And next time I'm in the area (soon I'm sure), I'll give you a shout.

[C650CPT]

Excellent points

The bottom line is the fractionals are NOT entry level jobs, so why should the pay be entry level. The pay is not comensurate with the average experience level read 5000tt (not the mins of 2500) of thier new hires. I use 5000tt subjectively because most everone I know who was hired by a fractional was at that level or hire. They were experienced pilots with alot of skill and experience. I hope for them and the industry that the pay gets on par with operations such as the one I work for.
Quality of life is also important but most of the fractionals are as bad if not worse than the airline schedules. I could not continuoulsy go to work for 7 straight days each time I left the house for work. I don't care if I get the next 7 off its not a life style I would care for, if I was going to do that I would aim for the majors and justify it by the larger paycheck.
You know once we fix this problem, and the regional we will have to start to fix the 135 and cheap 91 operators.

Jim

[jonnyb]

Thanks for the input Jim. Nicely put.

[music]

Great post there is a lot of information here.

Looks like some companies are trying to get away with a fast one. I dont think that can last though. You notice how many people here say things like... "No way I can live off that" or "I quit" etc. I know there are plenty of guys that will take the crappy pay jobs but eventually.... The well has to dry up... Not at the expense of training and college. There are sooooo many careers in this day and age to make a handsome living. Eventually people will just not sign up.

[jtrain609]

Been happening this way for a long time, music, just kind of how this industry works (or so it seems). Employers have learned that the well will not dry up, and it's unfortunate (at least that's how I understand things).

[ready2fly]

[ QUOTE ]
What am I, chopped liver? LOL!

[/ QUOTE ]
C'mon, Mikey-Man! You know better'n that!

If'n you ever fly that fancy Frizbee of yours down MacDill way - give me a holler!

<there. Feel better? >

[NJA_Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
First off, this post isn't intended to offend anyone (NJA_Capt. etc.). It is intended to get information out in the open and to help determine why these professionals are willing to work for these salaries.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense taken, OK maybe a little

Not sure why you thought this needs to be in the open...again. It's been out in the open and totally public info for 7 years. I imagine that it was sparked this time by Pro Pilot magazine's annual survey. Which, you noticed did NOT include fractional pay in with corporate pay. They are in separate categories.

We have been hearing the rhetoric about "dragging down the industry" for way too long. As stated before, we know it's low and we ARE doing something about it.

Some other things to consider are these. It was mentioned above that the people being hired are NOT low timers and are NOT inexperienced pilots. If the conditions were as terrible as "non-employees" profess, don't you think these "professional" pilots would turn down such poor conditions? Must be other factors, hmmm?

For the "dragging down the salary" activists: According to NBAA (National Business Aviation Assoc), there are over 10,000+ companies operating turbine business aircraft in the US alone. Together they operated over 15,000 turbine fixed wing aircraft. How is it possible that 2 fractionals drag down the average of 10,000 other operators? In 2003, there were 287,000 commercial and ATP pilots. 1800 ATP rated pilots are at NJA. That's approx .64% of the pro pilot population.That's like saying your son's piggy bank money drags down your savings account.

According to the FAA, "nearly 35,000 general aviation aircraft are utilized primarily for business and corporate missions." How does 776+ fractional aircraft change the average of 34,224 other aircraft? 2.2% of 34000 ? If a corporate flight department is basing it's salary on the bottom .04% (big 4 fracs/10,000) of other operators, it's a pretty poor dept to start with.

Fractionals should claim it's the corporate dragging us down. No restrictions on duty times (we do), no restrictions on rest time (we do), Paying by flight our and requiring you to sit 9 hours in the FBO (we don't). 24 hour standby. No/few scheduled days off. In house training, poor maint, etc...all things to look forward to in the private world....not. I made more money flying freight in a SEL piston than I did flying Charter in turboprops. I have friends that are at multi plane NBAA departments who make more than I do and are terribly UNhappy. Yes, they are home 25+ nights per month. The problem is they don't know when they are working or not, and can't plan anything beyond today. I'd rather get my 7 days of work out of the way and stay home. The three 21 day vacations each year are a nice plus too. What about the freight operators that pay squat and require you to be gone 2-3 WEEKS straight?

Falcon Capt and others will say there ARE good corp departments out there, and that is 100% true. However, how many of those 16,000 turbine aircraft are in those GOOD departments? My guess is less than 20%.

PS...I didn't include the 6411 charter operators. So with the big 4 fractionals are .024% of 16,411 Corp/charter operators.

http://www.nbaa.org/@@QBJEElW4LAES/f...3/section4.htm