My experience with Mesa Pilot Development

[MissedApproach]

A little background first. I discovered jetcareers.com about five years ago while sitting in high school web design class. At the time I knew that this was the profession I wanted to do, and I was all set up to go to ERAU in PRC. About the same time my dad told me that 35k a year wasn’t in the family budget and that I needed to explore other options if this is what I wanted to do. I got in touch with a close family friend and UPS pilot and at his advice looked into the state school and FBO route. It was then that I learned Arizona State University actually had a flight program and considering I had already been awarded a full academic ride it was an easy decision to make (at that time).

The flight training at ASU is contracted to Mesa Pilot Development. It’s similar to the Farmington program in that some people do indeed go to Mesa Airlines with 300 hours. It’s different in that you are required to get your CFI/II and that you work towards a 4 year degree.

I finished the program and graduated in 3.5 years, instructing my last 1.5 years. I’m now at Mesa on the CRJ.

During my time at MPD I can say that 80% of my instructors were top notch. The standard of performance is relatively high as flight schools go, however an MPD grad is on average no better than a riddle or UND grad. The notion that MPD training is comparable to the military as some people have alluded to as justification for 300hr jet FO’s is laughable. The truth is that MPD will take almost anybody and then let them washout. Of my freshman class of 65 only 9 graduated.

At MPD I worked my ass off as both a student and as an instructor. I demanded a lot from both myself and from my students. Looking back I have few regrets about doing the program; I received quality training and met a lot of great people along the way. If I could do it all over again I’m not sure how I would do it. There’s definitely something to be said for getting a non-aviation degree. Another down side about ASU MPD is that it is very difficult to get multi-engine students as an instructor. I went to Mesa with a little under 800 TT and 13 hours of multi. If I had been able to get more multi time I would’ve gone elsewhere. After student instructors were going to SkyWest and the like, they made it more difficult for instructors to get multi students, effectively tracking them into Mesa Airlines.

I’ll try to provide a little insight into just who these Mesa Pilot Development people are. 90% of MPD grads are absolutely clueless about the industry. Sure they have heard that mesa isn’t the greatest place to work, but they are usually completely unaware of the stigma they carry being 300hr wonders. They don’t understand that they are JO’s wet dream. Many are “just happy to be there” and thankful for the “opportunity to fly a jet.” They don’t get why this is such a dangerous attitude. To their defense many have never been exposed to a de727ups or Doug Taylor to explain “it” to them. Still, that’s no excuse for ignorance. On the flip side, I can’t even begin to tell you how many come to MPD on the advice of a major airline pilot. I’ve met at least 10 MPD grads whose fathers fly for SWA and directed them towards MPD.

I wouldn’t recommend MPD Farmington for a couple of reasons (beyond the negative impact it has on the industry). It’s expensive, provides little multi time, and with most regionals hiring at low time, what’s the point? MPD ASU as I view it is virtually no different from ERAU or UND until you graduate. You get a 4 year aviation degree and your instructor ratings. When you graduate from ASU you may interview at mesa airlines should you choose to. Those that do graduate from ASU and go to mesa with 300 hrs are no better than those that do the same at Farmington.

That said, I’m also not going to recommend everyone go to the cheapest FBO they can find. Look for quality of instruction as a primary consideration be it an FBO, college program, academy, whatever. Flight time isn’t only about quantity; it’s about quality as well. I would trust a 300 hour MPD guy over some 600 hour pilots I’ve flown with. While I learned a ton from instructing and I valued the experience, after about the first 300 hrs of dual given there comes a time where you realize watching your student do steep turns isn’t necessarily making you that much better of a pilot.

I don’t believe a 300 hour pilot belong in a jet. I also don’t believe that just anyone with 1500 hours belongs in a jet either. Experience matters, but so does the type of experience. The reality is that anyone going from GA piston to the right seat of jet isn’t necessarily safe for the first several hundred hours, and some never are. It’s a shame that pilots are judged only by their flight time and not on the quality of pilots that they really are.

Things will get better at Mesa or this airline won’t be here in two years. JO’s philosophy of “work em until they can’t take it and leave” doesn’t work when it’s a pilots market. Right now Mesa is bleeding pilots and if it continues like it is they’ll begin to loose contracts fast. Already some small things are changing, an indication that management gets that there is a problem. Mesa is now paying for hotels from day one of training, offering incentives to recruit pilots, and has done away with the application fee. These however are only things to get pilots to come here, not to get them to stay. We’re barely holding the flying we have now, and we’re in no position to get any more contracts.

The pilot contract is up in 6 months and this will be an interesting time. For the first time mesa pilots really have JO by the balls. Most are demanding block or better, better scheduling rules, more days off, and a couple more bucks per hour.

One thing I have to address is the undirected mesa bashing that I see more and more often on jetcareers. On this website at least, most of the mesa pilot bashing seems to come from 25 hour student pilots who can’t think of anything original, insightful, or constructive to contribute so they merely echo what they hear other people say. When I log in and see some kid post something like “my dog could fly at mesa LOL!!!!11” it’s a little disappointing to see on a website of this caliber (Besides that’s ridiculous, everyone knows a dog couldn’t get a first class medical ). It’s insulting to those of us that worked hard to get here and are fighting to make this a better place to work. Most of the pilots here really are true professionals are no different than pilots at any other airline.

I don’t mean to sound like I’m defending Mesa. Mesa has some very serious problems than need to be addressed. By all means if you have the mins for ExpressJet or SkyWest go there. If I had had the multi time I would’ve.

One last thing, Jetcareers and the posters here have been invaluable to me in understanding the industry and in helping me realize my career dreams. I really do owe a lot to the JC community. The purpose of this post is to provide as unbiased a perspective as I can. Comments welcome…

[desertdog71]

Nice post from someone that has been there.

[SIUAv8r]

Good post! I think people will appreciate your perspective!

[Andrew_VT]

There is definitely something to be said about major airline pilots pushing the mesa colleges. When I was finishing up high school and looking to pick a college, more than one major airline pilot that I'm close with recommended it to me because coworkers were sending there kids there. I actually considered it and remember reading over the brochure material I sent in for. To be honest I had forgotten about that untill you mentioned it!!

[N422NM]

Interesting points. There are some definite contrasts between the ASU and the San Juan/Farmington program. I know a lot of people in both areas (born and raised in FMN and personal friends with the ASU Chief pilot)

Personal opinion - ASU's chief pilot is much more realistic with his students and instructors. RC and RaeLynn in FMN are strictly concerned with getting bodies in the door, and are willing to promise the world to anyone that will listen to them. That being said I have seen that the FMN program is down in numbers and airplanes (a Barron and a few A-36's that have gone to ASU)

Fact - Mesa can't keep the pilots it has, on the west coast they are bleeding them off to Skywest, and on the east they are going to Chautaqua.... and then Jonathan whines to anyone that will listen to his phone message that these companies are doing predatory hiring of his pilots. Even the lifers that have been there for 15-20 years that used to wave the company flag are telling people to stay away.

United is again pissed at MAG. Airways ain't happy with them and probably won't renew come 2010. Cities that are served by the 1900's with EAS contracts can't stand them because of poor service. It's bad. Larry Risley didn't foster hate and discontent nearly as much as JO does. It's unfortunate, because Mesa used to be a decent little regional....not anymore. Unless things change 180 degrees, Mesa will cease to be a domestic airline within probably the next 2-3 years.

The MEC has supposedly left for JetBlue last week.

A bunch of us ex-MAG guys were bs'ing and think that the next move will be rather than charging students for MAPD, they'll just tell 'em "come here, learn the trade and sign a ten year contract and we'll get you in a jet...."

[DE727UPS]

"On the flip side, I can’t even begin to tell you how many come to MPD on the advice of a major airline pilot. I’ve met at least 10 MPD grads whose fathers fly for SWA and directed them towards MPD"

Not too long ago, I flew with a highly respected UPS checkairman. This guy has helped produce our training videos and the whole nine yards. He mentioned, in passing, that his son was interested in the career. That led me to talk of this site and my opinions of the different options him and his son should explore. We hit on everything from Gulfstream to small FBO's. He was interested in Gulfstream, in fact, since it was such an easy way to enter the industry. I had to counter with the "how would you like it if people paid to be your copilot" argument, and he saw my point. In the end, I gave him many things to think about. Not sure where it ended up with his kid.

My point with all this is that, even though this guy was a checkairman at UPS, he really had/has no clue about how things are in the flight training world and how things have changed in the industry over the years. I think when you hear SWA Capts sending their sons to MAPD, it's done so out of ignorance of what JO stands for, and the implications of 300 hour jet F/O's. I mean, how many of these SWA Capts would really like to sit next to such a low time F/O? Probably not many. But if their son can get ahead quick.....they look the other way....

[Aviator737]

Good post, Missed. For most of the reasons you describe, I opted against MAPD (Farmington) after seriously considering it.

[killbilly]

They don’t understand that they are JO’s wet dream. Many are “just happy to be there” and thankful for the “opportunity to fly a jet.” They don’t get why this is such a dangerous attitude. To their defense many have never been exposed to a de727ups or Doug Taylor to explain “it” to them. Still, that’s no excuse for ignorance.

I shudder (somewhat shamefacedly) when I think about it, but the above very likely would have happened to me had I not a) met CaptainBob through ATP's website and b) found this website.

Good post. Thanks.

[CamYZ125]

Couldn't have said it better myself, man. Especially the part about people talking **** about Mesa and MPD who don't actually have a clue. Just because MPD can "put you in a jet at 300 hrs" doesn't mean it's happening. 100% of us graduating this spring are currently instructing either at MPD or another school nearby. Just because we could have been a 300 hour wonder doesn't mean we believe in it, or want to be one.

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"On the flip side, I can’t even begin to tell you how many come to MPD on the advice of a major airline pilot. I’ve met at least 10 MPD grads whose fathers fly for SWA and directed them towards MPD"

Not too long ago, I flew with a highly respected UPS checkairman. This guy has helped produce our training videos and the whole nine yards. He mentioned, in passing, that his son was interested in the career. That led me to talk of this site and my opinions of the different options him and his son should explore. We hit on everything from Gulfstream to small FBO's. He was interested in Gulfstream, in fact, since it was such an easy way to enter the industry. I had to counter with the "how would you like it if people paid to be your copilot" argument, and he saw my point. In the end, I gave him many things to think about. Not sure where it ended up with his kid.

My point with all this is that, even though this guy was a checkairman at UPS, he really had/has no clue about how things are in the flight training world and how things have changed in the industry over the years. I think when you hear SWA Capts sending their sons to MAPD, it's done so out of ignorance of what JO stands for, and the implications of 300 hour jet F/O's. I mean, how many of these SWA Capts would really like to sit next to such a low time F/O? Probably not many. But if their son can get ahead quick.....they look the other way....

You didn't just throw one of your senior pilots under the bus did you? Oh yeah you did.

You're right Don, these guys are out of touch and do not know squat. Just like my friend who flies the MD11 for UPS (senior to you btw) who told me to go to FSA and do their direct track.

You just wasted 45 seconds of my time reading that post...

ILS

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by MissedApproach

A little background first. I discovered jetcareers.com about five years ago while sitting in high school web design class. At the time I knew that this was the profession I wanted to do, and I was all set up to go to ERAU in PRC. About the same time my dad told me that 35k a year wasn’t in the family budget and that I needed to explore other options if this is what I wanted to do. I got in touch with a close family friend and UPS pilot and at his advice looked into the state school and FBO route. It was then that I learned Arizona State University actually had a flight program and considering I had already been awarded a full academic ride it was an easy decision to make (at that time).

The flight training at ASU is contracted to Mesa Pilot Development. It’s similar to the Farmington program in that some people do indeed go to Mesa Airlines with 300 hours. It’s different in that you are required to get your CFI/II and that you work towards a 4 year degree.

I finished the program and graduated in 3.5 years, instructing my last 1.5 years. I’m now at Mesa on the CRJ.

During my time at MPD I can say that 80% of my instructors were top notch. The standard of performance is relatively high as flight schools go, however an MPD grad is on average no better than a riddle or UND grad. The notion that MPD training is comparable to the military as some people have alluded to as justification for 300hr jet FO’s is laughable. The truth is that MPD will take almost anybody and then let them washout. Of my freshman class of 65 only 9 graduated.

At MPD I worked my ass off as both a student and as an instructor. I demanded a lot from both myself and from my students. Looking back I have few regrets about doing the program; I received quality training and met a lot of great people along the way. If I could do it all over again I’m not sure how I would do it. There’s definitely something to be said for getting a non-aviation degree. Another down side about ASU MPD is that it is very difficult to get multi-engine students as an instructor. I went to Mesa with a little under 800 TT and 13 hours of multi. If I had been able to get more multi time I would’ve gone elsewhere. After student instructors were going to SkyWest and the like, they made it more difficult for instructors to get multi students, effectively tracking them into Mesa Airlines.

I’ll try to provide a little insight into just who these Mesa Pilot Development people are. 90% of MPD grads are absolutely clueless about the industry. Sure they have heard that mesa isn’t the greatest place to work, but they are usually completely unaware of the stigma they carry being 300hr wonders. They don’t understand that they are JO’s wet dream. Many are “just happy to be there” and thankful for the “opportunity to fly a jet.” They don’t get why this is such a dangerous attitude. To their defense many have never been exposed to a de727ups or Doug Taylor to explain “it” to them. Still, that’s no excuse for ignorance. On the flip side, I can’t even begin to tell you how many come to MPD on the advice of a major airline pilot. I’ve met at least 10 MPD grads whose fathers fly for SWA and directed them towards MPD.

I wouldn’t recommend MPD Farmington for a couple of reasons (beyond the negative impact it has on the industry). It’s expensive, provides little multi time, and with most regionals hiring at low time, what’s the point? MPD ASU as I view it is virtually no different from ERAU or UND until you graduate. You get a 4 year aviation degree and your instructor ratings. When you graduate from ASU you may interview at mesa airlines should you choose to. Those that do graduate from ASU and go to mesa with 300 hrs are no better than those that do the same at Farmington.

That said, I’m also not going to recommend everyone go to the cheapest FBO they can find. Look for quality of instruction as a primary consideration be it an FBO, college program, academy, whatever. Flight time isn’t only about quantity; it’s about quality as well. I would trust a 300 hour MPD guy over some 600 hour pilots I’ve flown with. While I learned a ton from instructing and I valued the experience, after about the first 300 hrs of dual given there comes a time where you realize watching your student do steep turns isn’t necessarily making you that much better of a pilot.

I don’t believe a 300 hour pilot belong in a jet. I also don’t believe that just anyone with 1500 hours belongs in a jet either. Experience matters, but so does the type of experience. The reality is that anyone going from GA piston to the right seat of jet isn’t necessarily safe for the first several hundred hours, and some never are. It’s a shame that pilots are judged only by their flight time and not on the quality of pilots that they really are.

Things will get better at Mesa or this airline won’t be here in two years. JO’s philosophy of “work em until they can’t take it and leave” doesn’t work when it’s a pilots market. Right now Mesa is bleeding pilots and if it continues like it is they’ll begin to loose contracts fast. Already some small things are changing, an indication that management gets that there is a problem. Mesa is now paying for hotels from day one of training, offering incentives to recruit pilots, and has done away with the application fee. These however are only things to get pilots to come here, not to get them to stay. We’re barely holding the flying we have now, and we’re in no position to get any more contracts.

The pilot contract is up in 6 months and this will be an interesting time. For the first time mesa pilots really have JO by the balls. Most are demanding block or better, better scheduling rules, more days off, and a couple more bucks per hour.

One thing I have to address is the undirected mesa bashing that I see more and more often on jetcareers. On this website at least, most of the mesa pilot bashing seems to come from 25 hour student pilots who can’t think of anything original, insightful, or constructive to contribute so they merely echo what they hear other people say. When I log in and see some kid post something like “my dog could fly at mesa LOL!!!!11” it’s a little disappointing to see on a website of this caliber (Besides that’s ridiculous, everyone knows a dog couldn’t get a first class medical ). It’s insulting to those of us that worked hard to get here and are fighting to make this a better place to work. Most of the pilots here really are true professionals are no different than pilots at any other airline.

I don’t mean to sound like I’m defending Mesa. Mesa has some very serious problems than need to be addressed. By all means if you have the mins for ExpressJet or SkyWest go there. If I had had the multi time I would’ve.

One last thing, Jetcareers and the posters here have been invaluable to me in understanding the industry and in helping me realize my career dreams. I really do owe a lot to the JC community. The purpose of this post is to provide as unbiased a perspective as I can. Comments welcome…

Good, informative post. I do like how you emphasized "quality training" and expedience VS Quanity of hours.

How are things at Mesa? I have heard that management has been coming around. Are they letting pilots have Phoenix from day one these days?

ILS

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by CLR4ILS

Good, informative post. I do like how you emphasized "quality training" and expedience VS Quanity of hours.

How are things at Mesa? I have heard that management has been coming around. Are they letting pilots have Phoenix from day one these days?

ILS

Oops.... Typing a little to fast. Experience not expedience and Quantity not quanity...

Darn edit mode disappears too fast.

ILS

[DE727UPS]

"You just wasted 45 seconds of my time reading that post..."

You're welcome. Come play again soon...

Better yet, put me on your ignore list so you don't waste any more time.

[H46Bubba]

Originally Posted by MissedApproach

A little background first. I discovered jetcareers.com about five years ago while sitting in high school web design class. At the time I knew that this was the profession I wanted to do, and I was all set up to go to ERAU in PRC. About the same time my dad told me that 35k a year wasn’t in the family budget and that I needed to explore other options if this is what I wanted to do. I got in touch with a close family friend and UPS pilot and at his advice looked into the state school and FBO route. It was then that I learned Arizona State University actually had a flight program and considering I had already been awarded a full academic ride it was an easy decision to make (at that time).

The flight training at ASU is contracted to Mesa Pilot Development. It’s similar to the Farmington program in that some people do indeed go to Mesa Airlines with 300 hours. It’s different in that you are required to get your CFI/II and that you work towards a 4 year degree.

I finished the program and graduated in 3.5 years, instructing my last 1.5 years. I’m now at Mesa on the CRJ.

During my time at MPD I can say that 80% of my instructors were top notch. The standard of performance is relatively high as flight schools go, however an MPD grad is on average no better than a riddle or UND grad. The notion that MPD training is comparable to the military as some people have alluded to as justification for 300hr jet FO’s is laughable. The truth is that MPD will take almost anybody and then let them washout. Of my freshman class of 65 only 9 graduated.

At MPD I worked my ass off as both a student and as an instructor. I demanded a lot from both myself and from my students. Looking back I have few regrets about doing the program; I received quality training and met a lot of great people along the way. If I could do it all over again I’m not sure how I would do it. There’s definitely something to be said for getting a non-aviation degree. Another down side about ASU MPD is that it is very difficult to get multi-engine students as an instructor. I went to Mesa with a little under 800 TT and 13 hours of multi. If I had been able to get more multi time I would’ve gone elsewhere. After student instructors were going to SkyWest and the like, they made it more difficult for instructors to get multi students, effectively tracking them into Mesa Airlines.

I’ll try to provide a little insight into just who these Mesa Pilot Development people are. 90% of MPD grads are absolutely clueless about the industry. Sure they have heard that mesa isn’t the greatest place to work, but they are usually completely unaware of the stigma they carry being 300hr wonders. They don’t understand that they are JO’s wet dream. Many are “just happy to be there” and thankful for the “opportunity to fly a jet.” They don’t get why this is such a dangerous attitude. To their defense many have never been exposed to a de727ups or Doug Taylor to explain “it” to them. Still, that’s no excuse for ignorance. On the flip side, I can’t even begin to tell you how many come to MPD on the advice of a major airline pilot. I’ve met at least 10 MPD grads whose fathers fly for SWA and directed them towards MPD.

I wouldn’t recommend MPD Farmington for a couple of reasons (beyond the negative impact it has on the industry). It’s expensive, provides little multi time, and with most regionals hiring at low time, what’s the point? MPD ASU as I view it is virtually no different from ERAU or UND until you graduate. You get a 4 year aviation degree and your instructor ratings. When you graduate from ASU you may interview at mesa airlines should you choose to. Those that do graduate from ASU and go to mesa with 300 hrs are no better than those that do the same at Farmington.

That said, I’m also not going to recommend everyone go to the cheapest FBO they can find. Look for quality of instruction as a primary consideration be it an FBO, college program, academy, whatever. Flight time isn’t only about quantity; it’s about quality as well. I would trust a 300 hour MPD guy over some 600 hour pilots I’ve flown with. While I learned a ton from instructing and I valued the experience, after about the first 300 hrs of dual given there comes a time where you realize watching your student do steep turns isn’t necessarily making you that much better of a pilot.

I don’t believe a 300 hour pilot belong in a jet. I also don’t believe that just anyone with 1500 hours belongs in a jet either. Experience matters, but so does the type of experience. The reality is that anyone going from GA piston to the right seat of jet isn’t necessarily safe for the first several hundred hours, and some never are. It’s a shame that pilots are judged only by their flight time and not on the quality of pilots that they really are.

Things will get better at Mesa or this airline won’t be here in two years. JO’s philosophy of “work em until they can’t take it and leave” doesn’t work when it’s a pilots market. Right now Mesa is bleeding pilots and if it continues like it is they’ll begin to loose contracts fast. Already some small things are changing, an indication that management gets that there is a problem. Mesa is now paying for hotels from day one of training, offering incentives to recruit pilots, and has done away with the application fee. These however are only things to get pilots to come here, not to get them to stay. We’re barely holding the flying we have now, and we’re in no position to get any more contracts.

The pilot contract is up in 6 months and this will be an interesting time. For the first time mesa pilots really have JO by the balls. Most are demanding block or better, better scheduling rules, more days off, and a couple more bucks per hour.

One thing I have to address is the undirected mesa bashing that I see more and more often on jetcareers. On this website at least, most of the mesa pilot bashing seems to come from 25 hour student pilots who can’t think of anything original, insightful, or constructive to contribute so they merely echo what they hear other people say. When I log in and see some kid post something like “my dog could fly at mesa LOL!!!!11” it’s a little disappointing to see on a website of this caliber (Besides that’s ridiculous, everyone knows a dog couldn’t get a first class medical ). It’s insulting to those of us that worked hard to get here and are fighting to make this a better place to work. Most of the pilots here really are true professionals are no different than pilots at any other airline.

I don’t mean to sound like I’m defending Mesa. Mesa has some very serious problems than need to be addressed. By all means if you have the mins for ExpressJet or SkyWest go there. If I had had the multi time I would’ve.

One last thing, Jetcareers and the posters here have been invaluable to me in understanding the industry and in helping me realize my career dreams. I really do owe a lot to the JC community. The purpose of this post is to provide as unbiased a perspective as I can. Comments welcome…

Great post man! Hope you gys can get a good hand full of JO's nutts and twist till he bleeds the money and QOL you guys deserve. Mesa's come close several times to having UA kick them to the curb. I heard it every day when I was there.