Changing over at 39...update

[mooneyguy]

I cannot believe it has been two years, since my original post in changing careers. Here is the original http://forums.jetcareers.com/changin...over-39-a.html now locked which is why I’m posting again here. So two years later. Then, private pilot who owned a Mooney m20J. Working on the IR. Watching guys getting picked up the regionals before their ink was dry on their commercial cert's. Now two years later, I have my CSEL, CMEL, CFI, CFII, MEI, and hiring...what hiring? To top it off, I had to take a "break" for a while (almost a year) due to medical reasons. Currently my school is very slow and I am waiting to get back into the system.

So things have changed a bit. No more 250hr regional FO's. Flight schools are not desperate for cfi's and cfi's are desperate for a job. I can still say however, I am very happy with my decision to make a career change!!! I know things will turn around, and I plan on being ready for the next upswing! I think if you wait for the upswing to start before you start training, you will miss it!

Even in this down time, I enjoy being in the business (even if I am working ON airplanes more then IN them).

for those of you who originally commented on my first thread, I'm curious to know where you are, and how its going for you.

If you are looking to get into aviation, I still say you cannot look at today to plan for tomorrow. If you want it, go after it!

[juskl]

Though I didn't comment back then, I do remember your thread. I started doing the CFI thing in Feb 07 in Chandler Az and am one of the mid life changers. I was a Police Officer for 13 years before I left to start this adventure. I am still teaching in Chandler. Though I am one of the lucky ones that gets to teach everything from Private, Instr, Comm, CFI, to Tailwheel and Aerobatics. I love the job, but like everything, it could always pay more and there are good days and not so good days.

Overall though things are going well. I am 38 by the way. Starting to miss the comforts of my old life (cars, trips, house, wife etc...), but I by far love flying upside down much more then responding to my 5000th family fight call.

Things will get better in the industry and then our adventure can move to the next phase, whatever that entails....

Good luck to ya..

[jet-dreams]

You both have done what I still dream of doing.
Congratulations!!!

[determined2fly]

Congradulations you and the 13 year police officer inspire many with the same dilemma you guys had.

[sunny441]

Inspiring - to a 28 year old who is considering a career change!

[jerrywhite7]

I totaly remember you. Two years ago, I was just getting started I new 32 year old career changer. I am one of the really lucky ones . . . flying a metroliner full time as an FO. I got all my ratings and instructed for several months! I still instruct on the side because now I can do it because it is fun! (changes things when you dont "have" to instruct)
Anyway, just wanted to say, hang in there, keep all contacts and impress your students (this is how I got my job)
Jerry

[Trip]

I, too, started about 2 years ago with Private and went all the way to CFI-I. I’m 36 and have yet to get my ME. I’m stalling on it because of the down turn and the idea of spending a few thousand dollars on another rating when hiring is nowhere in sight. I work part time as a CFI and part time for another small company. My paychecks are painful to look at and my wife is getting irritated after 2 years of pinching pennies. We’re supposed to start a family this year, but it would be financially irresponsible.

I’m ready to leave the industry completely and get a “real” job because if we started a family, when would I get to spend time with them as a pilot? Maybe after 5 years and getting a line in my hometown? What are the chances of that?

You all seem to have pretty optimistic views of the future. Its kinda hard to do that when finances and "when are you going to be home?" are the main friction in the relationship.

[Bigey]

Originally Posted by Trip

I, too, started about 2 years ago with Private and went all the way to CFI-I. I’m 36 and have yet to get my ME. I’m stalling on it because of the down turn and the idea of spending a few thousand dollars on another rating when hiring is nowhere in sight. I work part time as a CFI and part time for another small company. My paychecks are painful to look at and my wife is getting irritated after 2 years of pinching pennies. We’re supposed to start a family this year, but it would be financially irresponsible.

I’m ready to leave the industry completely and get a “real” job because if we started a family, when would I get to spend time with them as a pilot? Maybe after 5 years and getting a line in my hometown? What are the chances of that?

You all seem to have pretty optimistic views of the future. Its kinda hard to do that when finances and "when are you going to be home?" are the main friction in the relationship.

What do you find more important? Having the perfect job (far from perfect i'd say) or being with your wife and having a family? At first i'd say screw personal relationships when i wanted to become an airline pilot, but as each day passes, i dont think i'd send relationships to the high wind. To me, it's not worth it. Remember, you always can fly now that you have your ratings! It just may be that not for an airline!

I'd say get into a career where you can set yourself up financially and have that family you wanted! You can fly on the side as CFI while working your other job. Maybe one day will come where theres a sweet opening for corporate and you can jump on that?

[29.92inHg]

I made the switch too about 2 years ago and now have my CFI, CFII, MEI and I am instructing at a great flight school. I now have almost 1100 hours and 220 Multi. I was a department store manager andmy last day at work was on black friday in 2007. I am enjoying this part of my career, until the tide swings. I will say that you can never tell where you will end up as a pilot, and I have only been doing it 2 years, but I am much happier than I was before, albeit more broke. For the record I am 30 years old.

[29.92inHg]

Originally Posted by Trip

You all seem to have pretty optimistic views of the future. Its kinda hard to do that when finances and "when are you going to be home?" are the main friction in the relationship.

My wife and I have always had the finance and work issue in our lives. She is amazingly understanding and we spend our time together enjoying each other instead of fighting over the time we didn't have. I am definately lucky in that regard. Sorry to hear your predicament. I will say that family is number 1, so I guess if I had an ultimatum family would win out. Thank God that is not the case.

[jerrywhite7]

I too made a career change two years ago. KEEP THE FAITH!! One thing about it, us "older" newbies have something the young guys dont have . . . that is life experience! And some flight departments really do like that. This is one of the reasons why I got the job I have now. I was lucky enough to be a very low time pilot when hired (about 800 hours). I was hired to be a first officer on a Merlin Metroliner. While flight instructing I flew with my company on my days off, and any other time I could for FREE!!! Many guys will not fly for free, and that is just DUMB in my book . . . you have to pay your dues some how! Anyway, keep the work up, be positive, and draw on your life experiences to HELP you get a job, or become a GREAT flight instructor. Even in this economy you can get work!!! Just network, network, network!!!

[Boris Badenov]

Originally Posted by jerrywhite7

One thing about it, us "older" newbies have something the young guys dont have . . .

The cash reserves to fly for free? The ability to treat a profession as a hobby? An obsequious demeanor? Kneepads?

[wanabe]

Originally Posted by jerrywhite7

While flight instructing I flew with my company on my days off, and any other time I could for FREE!!! Many guys will not fly for free, and that is just DUMB in my book . . . you have to pay your dues some how!

I just threw up a little in my mouth....

[PropDriver]

Originally Posted by wanabe

I just threw up a little in my mouth....

Same here......

[Zero1Niner]

Originally Posted by jerrywhite7

...and any other time I could for FREE!!! Many guys will not fly for free, and that is just DUMB in my book . . . you have to pay your dues some how!

Release the hounds!!!

[jerrywhite7]

hey I see it like this . . . Local company calls looking for an FO to fly a King Air, Citation, Merlin, whatever for a quick trip . . . As a new FO you are not quailifed to fly. Sure maybe on paper (Commerical multiengine Land) but really, are you . .how much true "commerical large turbine crosscountry time do you really have? How many times have you as a flight instructor, or pipeline pilot have you been in the upper flight levels? Mountain Flying? Making tough inroute decisions? The answer of course is hardly anytime at all!
So what good are you to these guys (again, they are not "hiring" you for free)? They need someone to set up front because of insurance or passenger comfort knowing there are two pilots up there. Or it is a cool capt'n who is trying to help a low time pilot.
So let's review . . . You have a whomping 1,500 hours (mostly local time, little multi time, and not much cross crountry) and let's be honest, the time you have as a flight instructor is not YOU flying. It is you teaching . . . not flying for yourself but teaching. . . BIG DIFFERENCE HERE!

So you get offered the chance to get into something "bigger", what do you bring to the table that really "quailifies" you to be paid. Infact, you know that you are really lucky to get the oppertunity to fly the bigger stuff, get to log the time, and get experiences of true commerical flying.

Now, let's look at it from your Capt'n point of view, are you really "helping" him out up front? Not really. Sure your on the radios or getting to hand fly or set the autopilot, but he is having to show you and look over your shoulder so you dont screw it up. YOU ARE BEING TAUGHT! YOU ARE GETTING THE EXPERIENCE! What are they getting? Not much .. .

That is what I mean by flying for free . . . not "pay for flying" or being hired for free, but getting the oppertunity to fly!
To many guys right now think they should be Paid to fly in this situation . . . really????!?!?!??!!? Many of my buddy flight instructors passed up oppertunities like this . . . because they wanted money.

Love to hear what you might think. .. .

[Doug Taylor]

I had a similar opportunity right after college to fly right seat in a King Air for a few flights because I helped the pilot wash the airplane one weekend.

He asked my rates and I told him "Oh man, don't worry about it!" and he gave me a stern talk about how if the guys in the back are paying, that I should expect to be paid if I was a professional pilot.

At the time, I thought he was being melodramatic, but in retrospect, I think absolutely agree with him.

"Hey, let's go fly the Citation around the patch for some touch and goes" is one thing.

"I'm flying some paying passengers to Seattle tomorrow in a Navajo and I need a right seater" is something else.

[jerrywhite7]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

I had a similar opportunity right after college to fly right seat in a King Air for a few flights because I helped the pilot wash the airplane one weekend.

"I'm flying some paying passengers to Seattle tomorrow in a Navajo and I need a right seater" is something else.

Great point Doug! And this debate could go on and on, like it has. Trust me, if the capt'n or company wants to pay you. .. then great! GET PAID! Or if they generally pay FO's with equal quailifications GO FOR IT!
In my cause (which is where I am comming from, and I can really only speak about that) is that I went into a small flight department in which the company owns the airplane, passenger is the boss of the company and they were "scouting" for an FO to hire. (yes, I did get the job and do get paid!)

Also, just looking at the world of aviation right now, there are way to many furloughed guys out there, so flight departments can really make whatever demands they want right now.

Again, this was "my" experience. Everyone has/had their own stories, strategies of "making it". Everyone has there own limitiations and "personal minimums".
Anyway, I dont want to derail the Thread!

But great discussions!

[Doug Taylor]

Plus at that point I really didn't "get it" at that point in my career.

I thought being a professional pilot was just when you got hired to fly an airplane. Well, it's really about more how you roll. Like a doctor would probably never ask another doctor to help him with a procedure without expecting some sort of compensation. Or if there's a general contractor building a pool, he's not going to go next door and ask his competitors workers to come help for free and for the experience.

If you're doling out professional services, it's reasonable and customary to be paid. Right seat in a Navajo when someone is paying to fly a box or people from point-a to point-b is a professional service.

[Nihon_Ni]

I think there's one key word in your post:

Originally Posted by jerrywhite7

They need someone to set up front because of insurance or passenger comfort knowing there are two pilots up there.

If they need you, they should compensate you. How many students come to you who need a flight review/endorsement/check out/etc and you do it without charging them? How many greeters at WalMart do it for free to eventually get a job as a cashier?

If the company is paying lower premiums on its insurance, why shouldn't they pass that savings along to you? If pax aren't comfortable with only having one pilot up front, then you are the make-or-break factor to the flight. All your points about how little help you provide to the captain are all valid, but it doesn't change the fact that the company needs two pilots sitting up front, even if one guy is just warming the seat. If that's all he's doing, then they should pay him the same rate as you'd pay your own baby sitter.

Having said that, you don't have to take you pay in the form of dollars, but "getting to log SIC time in you book" isn't compensation (the FAA's viewpoint not withstanding), and a professional pilot shouldn't consider it as such. For example, I wouldn't see anything wrong with working a deal where you fly for X number of hours as FO, and then they will give you time in the airplane to get your PIC rating. In my book, that's compensation for services rendered. Logging SIC time or earning a job isn't compensation.

[jerrywhite7]

you guys make some great points here! Really you do. And in a fair and perfect world it all makes sense. However, in the world that I live in, I get a call . . . (after a day of nearly dying several times from students while in the Texas Heat in a tomahawk)

Capt'n -"Hey, I have a day trip tomorrow, would you like to right seat with me?"
Me- "Hey sure, sounds good, tomorrow is my day off, what time we leaving and where are we going?"
Capt'n-"Headed to for a quick trip to DFW. Leaving at 9 am, back by around 4pm."
Me- "Sounds good, is there any compensation?"
Capt'n-"No, but I see it that your getting free time in a Twin turbo prop. If you dont think that is fair, then I understand. Would one of the other flight instructors like to fly with me tomorrow?"

So no matter how fair it is or isnt, that is how it goes. (at least for me) I mean I could do an ATP and pay $25 large for the time, or fly on my days off or re-arrange my instructing schedule to fly. HHHHMMMMMMMMMM

So now a few months later (sitting in CO on a trip) I have full health insurance, ncie salary, great capt'n who allows me to fly every other leg and teach me, I'm logging PIC time and living the dream that I have always wanted. WHY, because of attitude . . . I showed that I really wanted the job! That I could be counted on! Could I have done that while being paid. . . SURE!! in "my" situation, was that an option . . .no!
So was 6-8 flights that I flew for "free" worth it? yes, because I have made that up and more!

I love the discussion on this. . . you guys really do make valid points. And I do agree, if we are professional pilots, we should be compensated for our time. And yes, that compensation can be more than money.
When my capt'n and I take our plane up so that I can do touch and Go's or single engine work that cost a LOT an hour! So in that way, I am being paid back for the "free flights".

I think looking back, however, that I would have discussed some of this with my capt''n before hand. Hind sight 20/20. When I'm a capt'n someday, and I have a low time guy looking to get sometime, I will line out the compensation with them.

Just remember, (at least for me) when you get that "call" . . . you really want the job and experience. It is tough to say anything but what time do you want me there and what's the dress code?


by the way, YES it is ok to start a new career in aviaiton. (back to the spirit of the thread)

[Zero1Niner]

Originally Posted by jerrywhite7

In my cause (which is where I am comming from, and I can really only speak about that) is that I went into a small flight department in which the company owns the airplane, passenger is the boss of the company and they were "scouting" for an FO to hire. (yes, I did get the job and do get paid!)

Personally, I dont have a problem with this. I would have done the same. I certainly understand the principle that is being fought for, but at the end of the day, its all about doing what it takes to get the job. There is the way things should be, and the way things are, but at some point each individual needs to make the decision to either stand up for the greater good, or do whatever necessary to reach their own personal goals.

Glad you landed the job Jerry.

[jskibo]

This is something I have been giving some thought to......

I'm 42 now. Always wanted to fly but typically ran out of time, money or both. Spent a lot stopping and starting training between 18 and 24 and never got very far. When I was in the Navy I flew a lot at the flying club (PA-28-140 was $28 wet then, C310 @ $90), but didn't get my license before getting out. An ex destroyed that log book with 80+ hours in it.

I went to SIUC and dual majored (Flight and Aviation Management) for awhile. Finished the Private and was building time for Commercial and was offered an internship (Co-Op) at then McDonnell-Douglas, so I dropped the Flight Major and finished the BS in Management. Been with Boeing since the merger and while the money is great, here I am almost 15 years later sitting in meeting after meeting wishing I took the other road.

So Saturday, after a 9 year hiatus on flying, I'm starting back to work on my instrument and plan on continuing through CFII / MEI. I'll see what happens after that. Maybe it will just be logging instructing hours, maybe I will take the full plunge. The wife makes more than me and she's just about done with Law School as well.

Though I'm not ready to let go of the secutrity blanket yet, its good to hear others have done so!! Maybe I'll join you soon......

[jerrywhite7]

Hey thanks for sharing. This is a great place to get different ideas and find out from folks who have gone or who is going through the same thing that you are going through right now. Two years ago I was thinking of going for my life long dream of flying. Today I am happy to say, I am living out that dream. My biggest suggestion is to make sure your other half fully understands what will/could happen to you. Be real with her, because this is going to be a huge sacrifice for her as well. At best you will have low pay and long hours as a flight instructor. Your first job after that will be low pay and long hours as well. It will take years (if ever) to make any type of "real" money, but if (like you stated) your wife makes good money then only a small change in lifestyle might have to be made.

I saved up so that I could have approx. ones years salary in the bank too lessen the blow to my family (i wife, 2 kids).

This is a career that is easier for you in some ways (low pay, gone alot) because it is "your" dream that is being lived out . . . having a family that supports you can make all the difference in the world!

My advice, go get that instrument ticket (the PHD of aviation) make sure you still want to do this . . . Keep looking and posting here at Jetcareers . . . and DONT go to a excellerated program right now . . . they cost too much money, you'd have to give up your great paycheck, and right now there are really no jobs to "accerate" too!

Thanks for posting! Good luck!

[jskibo]

Originally Posted by jerrywhite7

...My advice, go get that instrument ticket (the PHD of aviation) make sure you still want to do this . . . Keep looking and posting here at Jetcareers . . . and DONT go to a excellerated program right now . . . they cost too much money, you'd have to give up your great paycheck, and right now there are really no jobs to "accerate" too!

Thanks for posting! Good luck!

Thanks! I'm surrounded by Sporty's IFR video and books right now, trying to feel better about Saturday.

No fast track course for me, as you said, I like the check for now. Only thing I had considered was an ATP quick Multi (10 hour one). Not sure of the opinions on that route.