Is It Too Late to Look to Flying as a Career?

[Jester]

Hi JC Community!

I have been reading and getting a lot of interesting info from all the knowledgeable people on this site and recently registered on the site. I am one of those guys that have always dreamed of flying a plane and i have had the opportunity to fly a Cessna 172 with a friend of mine. It was so overwhelming to be at the controls but what an experience!

I am 36 years young and interested in starting to map out a plan to making my way to flying for a living. Ultimately would like to fly for an airline flying the 747, 767, 777, 787 type of aircraft (A340 and A330 included) - yes it's a long road but it's the journey that is worth it. And who knows - the path may change to another aircraft. It's a bad time for the industry (and it's volatile) and the economy just now. I understand this but I have to try. I also understand from my reading that it's important to head in the right direction in terms of experience to get to your desired seat or costs may get out of hand.

The costs of learning to fly are quite substantial and i am interested in any ideas on how to shave costs. I am currently employed full time and I have looked to getting a loan. I also know that there are no shortcuts to experience. If i could get into some kind of dialogue about ideas that would be awesome.

I feel if i don't take the first step soon life will overtake me.
Questions to think about and opinions on the following will be most welcome:
1. Costs of FBO's vs the accelerated programmes.
2. Loans vs paying my way and the time involved.
3. # of times to fly a week and juggling ground school and personal reading and studying.
4. Ideas on how to shave costs
5. Ideas on how to get more practical knowledge i.e. - volunteering to do line work


Thanks again for taking the time and I hope to be able to contribute in the future to the community.

PS: Apologies for the length of this wordy essay!

[ZapBrannigan]

Wish you the best of luck in your career change. Make certain that you keep reading. The right path for you could be different than the path a younger pilot might choose to take.

While certainly being a pilot for a major airline is an honorable profession, you might find yourself drawn to other segments of aviation. Perhaps you will enjoy agricultural flying, charter flying, freight, corporate aviation, or even flight instructing. Perhaps you will build a career flying for a regional airline in anything from a 19 seat turboprop to a 70 seat jetliner. Or perhaps that right career for you is flying an 8 passenger piston twin between the Islands off of Cape Cod to Boston, Providence, and throughout New England.

There are a plethora of career options that would allow you to fly professionally. Don't lock yourself into one vision of success this early in your career.

[Joe Gremlin]

Others may disagree with me, but if you're starting from scratch at 36, I'd say the odds of you ending up in the front seat of a 747, 767, 777, 787 type of aircraft (A340 and A330 included) are about the same as the odds of winning the powerball lottery. That's not to say that you can't start at 36 and fly for a living. But making it to the frond seat of a heavy in the majors is going to be tough when all of your competition for those seats is 10 years younger than you are and has twice as much experience as you do.

[ZapBrannigan]

Gimme a break.

[Joe Gremlin]

Ok, take a break.

[Jester]

Thanks so far for the info - it's true that while learning you might find you have other interests in the aviation industry. i am definitely open to that. Thanks for the insight on the chances of making it onto a heavy, the more opinions and info - hopefully the more well thought out my plan.

re: ZapBrannigan - any ideas on possible paths? (anyone for that matter)

[Firebird2XC]

Is the dream over? Nah, not really.

Is it highly unlikely that you'll be in a position to make it to the 'big leagues' and real money at this point? Yep. Doesn't really matter what your age is, the "easy in, easy up" moment has passed. If another comes around, it'll be years from now.

Most airlines have guys on the street on furlough status that will get called back before new hires get called to interview. Once you get in, you're behind all of them in line for upgrade to your first captain position.. and eventual interview at one of the 'majors'.

Ask yourself if you can sincerely live on $30,000 a year for the next 5 years combined with being away from home up to 16 days a month.

It's a tough nut to crack. If you really want it bad enough, go for it and more power to ya... but don't let the flight schools selling bulk packages con you into believing there's some sort of 'pilot shortage'. If there is a shortage, it's years in coming.

[Toonces]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

Is the dream over? Nah, not really.

Is it highly unlikely that you'll be in a position to make it to the 'big leagues' and real money at this point? Yep. Doesn't really matter what your age is, the "easy in, easy up" moment has passed. If another comes around, it'll be years from now.

Most airlines have guys on the street on furlough status that will get called back before new hires get called to interview. Once you get in, you're behind all of them in line for upgrade to your first captain position.. and eventual interview at one of the 'majors'.

Ask yourself if you can sincerely live on $30,000 a year for the next 5 years combined with being away from home up to 16 days a month.

It's a tough nut to crack. If you really want it bad enough, go for it and more power to ya... but don't let the flight schools selling bulk packages con you into believing there's some sort of 'pilot shortage'. If there is a shortage, it's years in coming.

What he said except there will never be a shortage of pilots. Never has been and never will be.

[Joe Gremlin]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

Is the dream over? Nah, not really.

Is it highly unlikely that you'll be in a position to make it to the 'big leagues' and real money at this point? Yep. Doesn't really matter what your age is, the "easy in, easy up" moment has passed. If another comes around, it'll be years from now.

Most airlines have guys on the street on furlough status that will get called back before new hires get called to interview. Once you get in, you're behind all of them in line for upgrade to your first captain position.. and eventual interview at one of the 'majors'.

Ask yourself if you can sincerely live on $30,000 a year for the next 5 years combined with being away from home up to 16 days a month.

It's a tough nut to crack. If you really want it bad enough, go for it and more power to ya... but don't let the flight schools selling bulk packages con you into believing there's some sort of 'pilot shortage'. If there is a shortage, it's years in coming.

Firebird said it much better than I did. If you want a career as a pilot, it absolutely isn't too late to start. But there is no shortage of professional pilots and its unlikely that there will ever be a shortage in our lifetime.

The 6-month zero to hero schools will tell you all about how all the babyboomers are going to hit mandatory retirement age 'in the next few years' and thus create a shortage of professional pilots of epic proportions. Those schools have been selling that babyboomer chestnut to students since the babyboomers were in diapers. It's bs and nothing more.

There's no shortage of pilots and there never will be, and the payscale reflects this. So like Firebird said, expect to make less than $30k for five years or so. Also, expect your trip up the career ladder to involve relocating a few times. That's not to say that you'll definitely have to relocate, but its something you'd be wise to expect.

As for your questions on training, An FBO will almost always be cheaper than a pilot mill. An FBO will probably take longer, but not always. The more you fly, the faster you'll finish. So if you can devote two hours a day to flying and 6 hours a day to studying, five days a weeks, you'd probably get through a private cert in a month. Most people can't devote that kind of time and most schools can't provide that kind of availability so figure on it taking about 6 months to get a private cert if you keep working and fly every chance possible.

FWIW, I did my private in just over 4 months, flying twice a week with a local FBO while I was working full time. I took longer to do the instrument rating but I didn't have the cash to fly every week at that time. I did the commercial cert after my instrument and it was exactly one month between my IR checkride and my commercial checkride. By the time I did my instrument and commercial, I was a non-equity partner in a Mooney so I used that and an independent CFI instead of the FBO.

[tprops4me]

Originally Posted by Jester

I am 36 years young and interested in starting to map out a plan to making my way to flying for a living.

Don't you know 36 is the new 26? Go for it. If it is what you want, it will happen. Just be flexible and set your goals one step at a time.

[poser765]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

Ask yourself if you can sincerely live on $30,000 a year for the next 5 years combined with being away from home up to 16 days a month.

Where is this job? I assume they aren't hiring for anything less than 1500 TT?

[Qgar]

Hi, Jester--welcome to JC. If flying is your dream, GO FOR IT!
I know a few pilots who started even later than you and are now FOs at both the regional and higher levels. I started my career as a Flight Attendant at the tender age of 50. As long as you have the desire, there's nothing you can't do! There's a saying I read a while ago that stuck with me, and for the life of me I can't remember the exact words. Perhaps someone here can help me out. The gist of it is if you think you're too old to pursue a dream but don't, you'll still get older and won't have anything to show for it.

Good luck and always believe in yourself and follow your heart.

[wzgrza]

Make sure you find out what you are getting yourself into before spending 40k$ on it. It's not what you see in the movies, thats for sure.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by poser765

Where is this job? I assume they aren't hiring for anything less than 1500 TT?

There isn't really. It's just a generalization of what life as an FO at a regional airline might be like for the next few years. Sorry if I gave you false hope.

[bundee80]

Originally Posted by Qgar

Hi, Jester--welcome to JC. If flying is your dream, GO FOR IT!
I know a few pilots who started even later than you and are now FOs at both the regional and higher levels. I started my career as a Flight Attendant at the tender age of 50. As long as you have the desire, there's nothing you can't do! There's a saying I read a while ago that stuck with me, and for the life of me I can't remember the exact words. Perhaps someone here can help me out. The gist of it is if you think you're too old to pursue a dream but don't, you'll still get older and won't have anything to show for it.

Good luck and always believe in yourself and follow your heart.

This probably isn't it but seems applicable: "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take." -Wayne Gretzky-

[IslandFlyer]

"It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed."
Theodore Roosevelt

[ppragman]

Originally Posted by Jester

Hi JC Community!

I have been reading and getting a lot of interesting info from all the knowledgeable people on this site and recently registered on the site. I am one of those guys that have always dreamed of flying a plane and i have had the opportunity to fly a Cessna 172 with a friend of mine. It was so overwhelming to be at the controls but what an experience!

I am 36 years young and interested in starting to map out a plan to making my way to flying for a living. Ultimately would like to fly for an airline flying the 747, 767, 777, 787 type of aircraft (A340 and A330 included) - yes it's a long road but it's the journey that is worth it. And who knows - the path may change to another aircraft. It's a bad time for the industry (and it's volatile) and the economy just now. I understand this but I have to try. I also understand from my reading that it's important to head in the right direction in terms of experience to get to your desired seat or costs may get out of hand.

The costs of learning to fly are quite substantial and i am interested in any ideas on how to shave costs. I am currently employed full time and I have looked to getting a loan. I also know that there are no shortcuts to experience. If i could get into some kind of dialogue about ideas that would be awesome.

I feel if i don't take the first step soon life will overtake me.
Questions to think about and opinions on the following will be most welcome:
1. Costs of FBO's vs the accelerated programmes.
2. Loans vs paying my way and the time involved.
3. # of times to fly a week and juggling ground school and personal reading and studying.
4. Ideas on how to shave costs
5. Ideas on how to get more practical knowledge i.e. - volunteering to do line work


Thanks again for taking the time and I hope to be able to contribute in the future to the community.

PS: Apologies for the length of this wordy essay!

If I were in your shoes, I'd go to ATPs and get it done, and try to find a job now. Build time, and be ready for when the market rebounds. Your dream of flying heavy iron is a possibility, it just might take awhile. Keep in mind, if you don't try, you can't succeed.

[Ami]

Originally Posted by Toonces

What he said except there will never be a shortage of pilots. Never has been and never will be.

I do not agree. You don't really get to see to many locals at flight schools these days. Most of the people that train here are from other parts of the world. Could be because banks are not giving away money anymore for aviation, and as we all know, it is not a cheap hobby. Yes, lots of us are "on the streets" right now-but and a year or two, down the road there will be a huge shortage. just come and visit our local flight schools and you will see.....

[Joe Gremlin]

Originally Posted by Ami

I do not agree. You don't really get to see to many locals at flight schools these days. Most of the people that train here are from other parts of the world. Could be because banks are not giving away money anymore for aviation, and as we all know, it is not a cheap hobby. Yes, lots of us are "on the streets" right now-but and a year or two, down the road there will be a huge shortage. just come and visit our local flight schools and you will see.....

BS

[LoneStarPilot]

I agree with Zap.................keep your options open. I'm 48 and still plan on going for it.It's not going to be easy...........anything worthwhile usually does'nt come easily.

[skydog]

Originally Posted by Jester

Hi JC Community!

I have been reading and getting a lot of interesting info from all the knowledgeable people on this site and recently registered on the site. I am one of those guys that have always dreamed of flying a plane and i have had the opportunity to fly a Cessna 172 with a friend of mine. It was so overwhelming to be at the controls but what an experience!

I am 36 years young and interested in starting to map out a plan to making my way to flying for a living. Ultimately would like to fly for an airline flying the 747, 767, 777, 787 type of aircraft (A340 and A330 included) - yes it's a long road but it's the journey that is worth it. And who knows - the path may change to another aircraft. It's a bad time for the industry (and it's volatile) and the economy just now. I understand this but I have to try. I also understand from my reading that it's important to head in the right direction in terms of experience to get to your desired seat or costs may get out of hand.

The costs of learning to fly are quite substantial and i am interested in any ideas on how to shave costs. I am currently employed full time and I have looked to getting a loan. I also know that there are no shortcuts to experience. If i could get into some kind of dialogue about ideas that would be awesome.

I feel if i don't take the first step soon life will overtake me.
Questions to think about and opinions on the following will be most welcome:
1. Costs of FBO's vs the accelerated programmes.
2. Loans vs paying my way and the time involved.
3. # of times to fly a week and juggling ground school and personal reading and studying.
4. Ideas on how to shave costs
5. Ideas on how to get more practical knowledge i.e. - volunteering to do line work


Thanks again for taking the time and I hope to be able to contribute in the future to the community.

PS: Apologies for the length of this wordy essay!

The short answer is, No, it's not too late for a flying career.

That said, at your age, you are probably going to have to alter your expectations a bit. You are starting at an age at which most airline pilots get hired at a major airline. When the airlines were hiring, the average major airline pilot was in the mid-30's when hired. To get to the left seat of one of the aircraft you mentioned takes 25 or more years seniority AFTER you get hired. You don't have that much time, and the majors aren't even hiring. I think it is perfectly feasible that you could retire as a Captain on a 737 or its future equivalent, but I wouldn't count on the airframes you mentioned.

Flying is expensive. Accept that reality now. However there are things you can do to limit your personal costs, the most significant of which is DON'T TAKE OUT A LOAN. Save your money. Pay as you go. The neat thing about flying training is that there are several natural pauses built into it. Save your money. Earn your private pilot's license. Build some flight time, including cross country time. Save your money. Get your instrument rating. Build some more flight time. Save your money. Get your commercial pilot certificate. See a trend here? Don't think of flight training as a long expensive process, but rather has a series of steps. First your private, then instrument, then commercial, and so forth and so on.

Once you get your commercial, you now have choices in the direction you can go. You can attempt to get a job towing banners, flying skydivers, or doing pipeline patrol. None of these are verly likely, but possible. You can get a Flight Instructor-airplane certificate and get a job as an instructor (most likely chance of success), or get a commercial-multiengine rating and attempt to get a job (almost impossible).

As far as the number of times you should fly: When pursuing a rating or certification, I say as many times as you can, as often as you can, and still be prepared for the lesson. For every lesson you fly you should be prepared to spend a few hours in preparation and study. There is no reason you can't get a given certificate or rating within a month of beginning, if you have the ability and resources to study, prepare, and fly every day. You're trying to build a mental database as well as physical skills. The more often you can fly and study, the quicker you will retain those skills.

Get involved: join a local flying club, your local EAA chapter, the civil air patrol, whatever you can find. Getting involved is the hands-down best opportunity for incidental learning, networking opportunities, and professional advocacy. If your going to become a professional in this field, then you might as well start right now.

Finally, I just want to remark on a comment you made. "Yes it's a long road but it's the journey that is worth it." That sounds good to say, but the reaility is that you won't know if it was "worth it" until the day you quit flying. There are lots of people who, despite their skills or abilities, never made anything of their careers. I know one fellow who lost his medical just as he was getting to the point of being able to fly for a regional. If that happens to you, will you consider it "worth it?" Given your age, this is a relevant question. After age 50, the ranks of pilots begin to thin out. I read once that only about 40% made it to the (then) retirement age of 60.

My point here is tell you to put away any romantic notions you have about this career. Put away the leather jacket and silk scarf. This is a business. Its purpose is to make money. As a pilot, you have a role in that purpose. You should start learning how the business of aviation operates. You also have a responsibility to your professional community. If you're not prepared to accept these roles, if this is just one big flight of fancy for you, than get your private pilot license and have fun on weekends, but do something else professionally.

[juskl]

Though this has already been said, realy consider the gut check (or lack of a check) that you will receive. I don't know what field you are currently working in, but I am going to assume that it took you quite a bit to get to the level that your are at now. Same in aviation. And the older we get, the less B.S. we are willing to put up with. I work with alot of older instructors at my school (me included at 38). All of us came from other fields. And all of us took huge hits in quality of life. Going from 80K a year with full benefits and retirement to 20k with nothing,is a hit. Let alone the family side of things...

Do I regret my decision? No, not one bit. I look forward to going to work every day. But I get to fly upside down and bounce off of dirt strips. Am I going to fly for the airlines (highly doubtful, but I realy don't want to anyway). Even if I did, I know that time is not on my side.

I have been teaching now for over two years and have over 2200 hours TT. But, I am still not realy a desired commodity to the airline industry. Mostly because 2185 of that is single engine. You realy have to love aviation to want to give up alot to work in the field. There are many paths and opportunities, just don't limit yourself to the airlines. Companies are always advertising, but usually you will never have enough of the right time. Meaning 1000 multi-turbine PIC with 3000TT (example only).

Also, do not go in debt for this career. Most of us have to one extent or the other. Or if you do, keep it very managable.

Anyway, good luck. Hell, first just get through the Private and see if this is really something you feel you want to do. No one really knows, until after that point.

[Jester]

thanks all, i appreciate all the input and the words of encouragement. Skydog - thanks for your candidness. Good point about the "worth it" part. I probably expressed that wrong. It's the experience of the journey that will put me in a better place for knowing who i am and shape me - you can only learn. I have no illusions about this profession and i agree with your point on "it's a business" but then again, "it's business" that has helped get our global economy into the mess it's in - another day maybe. speaking of which, about loans, i am on the fence about the strategy to use concerning this. I liked the the comment on "responsibility to the professional community". Are there mentoring programs that are up and running?

[Jester]

Thanks Juskl - the PPL is the first step for sure.

[learflyer]

Originally Posted by Toonces

What he said except there will never be a shortage of pilots. Never has been and never will be.

Toonces, your Avatar pretty much sums up what this profession is like right now with no words. You made me spit out m red wine!