Is It Too Late to Look to Flying as a Career? - Page 2

bivguy · April 9th, 2009, 15:08

jester welcome to jc!! listen to Zap, he seems to be a very knowledable fellow. Remember ITS a journey enjoy the ride.

3green · April 10th, 2009, 02:52

Quote:

My point here is tell you to put away any romantic notions you have about this career. Put away the leather jacket and silk scarf. This is a business. Its purpose is to make money. As a pilot, you have a role in that purpose. You should start learning how the business of aviation operates.

Spot on. There is reality and then there is fantasy. Romantic quotes won't help on a 16 hour duty day with 6 legs. Learn about the reality of the business, take your time getting your ratings(no rush with no jobs out there), and family/friends first. Listen to those who have walked the walk. Flying a jet is fun, but getting paid what your worth is better...

PGT · April 10th, 2009, 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by ppragman

If I were in your shoes, I'd go to ATPs and get it done, and try to find a job now. Build time, and be ready for when the market rebounds. Your dream of flying heavy iron is a possibility, it just might take awhile. Keep in mind, if you don't try, you can't succeed.

You're 20, like me, you shouldn't be giving advice on whether to get into this business.

Not a personal attack just don't think you or I are qualified to give life advice.

BillH · April 11th, 2009, 22:15

Run, run away as fast as you can and find a job that requires much less skill and pays three times as much. The feelings you have towards aviation, it is unjustified romance from inexperience, hollywood, and all of your friends who HATE their job and think flying an airplane is a billion times better. A job is a job is a job is a job. Don't matter if you are a pilot or a porn star.

To sum it up, there is very little demand for pilots, there are too many.

Tld · April 12th, 2009, 21:56

Welcome to JC jester! While I am not as experienced or versed as many other pilots on here, I have to say that regardless of age, I think that your goals are worthwhile and attainable. I couldn't be happier that I decided to pursue flying, never is there a day I wish I hadn't. If it's your dream you have to go after it. Like some have said, there will be negatives and challenges, but that's the same in every career. Although I sometimes wish I had gotten my start earlier, because I was a little older and had a career separate from flying, I was able to afford to fly when I started. (when i started, not so much now..haha).

During my private pilot training I also started working weekends at the FBO where I was taking lessons. This drastically helped offset the cost of flying as well because I got an employee rental rate (might be something to look into as a way to cut costs). Working for the FBO also exposed me to many different types of pilots and gave me a glimpse into different career paths as well as offer me that 'real world' experience to which I believe you were referring. The greatest advice I can give is exactly the advice I received here on JC: Go for it! but be smart about it. And talk to people, meet as many other pilots as possible, you will learn so much from them. There are many paths to flying as a career, just have to find which training route and career will work best for you. Keep us posted on your progress and have fun!

ChasenSFO · April 13th, 2009, 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toonces

What he said except there will never be a shortage of pilots. Never has been and never will be.

I seem to remember some deregulation start-ups running into operational problems due to pilots shortages in the 80s and maybe early 90s. When airlines don't have enough pilots, is that not a "pilot shortage"?

hotice · April 14th, 2009, 20:13

It's never to late as long as you know what you are getting into, and it's going to be a rough ride.

ChasenSFO · April 15th, 2009, 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotice

It's never to late as long as you know what you are getting into, and it's going to be a rough ride.

Thats what she said.

Bumblebee · April 15th, 2009, 12:45

I started at 42 years young (lol) and I have a flying career. You can too. Put up pictures in your office of where you want to end up and get going. These pictures will change as your goals focus.
Read the archives on this forum, they are filled with wisdom. I would suggest doing a search from some of these users:

CalCapt
FlyChicaga
Kellwolf
Doug Taylor
Ready2fly
Velocipede
these will lead you to others who will lead you to others and so on.

I would suggest reading all of the debates on flight schools vs. FBO's

DO NOT PAY FOR A JOB . . . this would damage the industry you want to join.

good luck!

Hernandezcfi · April 15th, 2009, 13:54

I bet all of us flying for a living miss that romance of flying that you experienced. Once you get the job, you will realize that it is a JOB. Looking out the window and enjoying the view while flying any heading and altitude you wish in Visual conditions will be a thing of the past. Waking up on a sunny Sunday afternoon and heading to the airport at your leisure will be a thing of the past.

You will be yanked from a deep sleep at 4am with that special ring from crew scheduling while on reserve to go fly a leg or three at a madhouse where you will spend as much time on the ground as you do in the air. Once you do get in the air, you won't have time to enjoy the view because you will be in Instrument conditions working to comply with headings and altitudes ATC gives you. You may be flying in weather that you do not like to fly in but you must because it's your job. You may be pushing 5 days away from your family but it's your job.

My point is, the pleasure you experienced flying an airplane is not what the airline business is about. Its about getting passengers from point A to point B in a fashion that makes the people above you happy no matter how you feel about it.

You must also be prepared to go thru alot of stuff to hold a thankless job where your seat has a eject button that someone at a safe warm office on the ground has their finger on at all times. You will not have a name to that person just a number and as much as they don't like to push the eject button, they won't hesitate if the bean counters show red on the balance sheet. It wont matter if you need new shoes or your rent is due.

If it sounds like I dislike my job, I don't. I am proud of what I do and I take the bad with the good. I just think you should know that it's not what you may imagine. It's like being in love with a woman who abuses you. The job will demand the utmost commitment to survive!

Fr8dog44 · April 15th, 2009, 16:13

Well, I must admit, I've read some interesting things on this topic, some true some not. I started at 31 and am now in my 50's and have been a professional pilot for 18 years. I have thousands of hours of flying time, everything from single-engine cessnas to corporate jets. I have been unemployed as much if not more than employed. Aviation isn't what it used to be, in fact, years ago it was great. Since Frank Lorenzo destroyed Eastern Airlines and Reagan deregulated aviation, it's been all downhill. One person said "it's a business" and he's right. It's now run by bean-counters and lying, back-stabbing, ruthless businesss types, especially in the charter arena. Some of the "true" stories I could tell you!

Here's what you need to know, AGE IS A FACTOR!! Trust me on this. I have watched age discrimination take place right before my eyes. It's that obvious! And when I called them on it, they quickly coverd their tracks. And they are very good at covering their tracks. Two in particular, Comair and Pinnacle. Commuters and Regionals want "Young, Fresh, Meat" that they can chew up and spit out at will while paying below poverty level wages. Young, idealistic pilots with dreams and asperations are willing targets for their excuses for paying low wages in exchange for experience. I've been hearing this ALL my carreer, even after I've accumilated thousands of hours of flying time. They all sing the "we ain't got no money" blues!! Why do you think that plane went down outside of Buffalo not too long ago? Inexperience!!! They don't care! Profit is the goal and let the Insurance companies deal with the mis-haps!

The other thing that was said is "don't pay for a job"! I agree with that! However, here's the reality. For every one pilot who sticks to his guns, there are a hundred pilots who WILL PAY for a job, and the companies know it! Especially where Type-Ratings are concerned! Now, to be fair, there are many ass-hole pilots who were hired, sent for type training and took the first offer for more pay by some other company and left the first company holding the bag for the costs. This isn't fair! And I can understand why most companies no longer wish to foot the bill for type-ratings. We all have these superlative, greedy little, self indulgent a-holes for screwing the rest of us on this issue! You guys know who you are.... thank you very little!!! And while I'm on the subject of "fellow pilots" ... The Industry seems to be attracting a few too many "back-stabbers". Yes, this has become a VERY competitive industry. There are more and more pilots and fewer seats. As such, it's bringing out the worst in some pilots. There are pilots badmouthing other pilots just to get them fired so they can move into their position. It's happening more and more and all to frequently. Even when it's not true, if another pilot says your incompetant, the company has to look at it! And there's nothing you can do about it. Imagine spending upwards of $100,000 to get all your qualifications only to get blown out of the water by some slime-bag who probably is himself a lousy pilot!! Something to think about!!

Also, Ameriflight, Alpine-Air and a few others are selling right-seat time for thousands of dollars and there are no shortage of pilots with rich parents paying for it. I know, I've seen it first hand! I flew with them! It's true many of them are from other countries who come here to build time, then go back and obtain good to great paying jobs. Our corporations love these guys. It's pure profit. Unfortunatley, our corporations are pimps and we are turned into prostitutes and there's little we can do about. When you look into overseas job, which I have, they tell you "nationals first, oversea pilots last". We'll train our own 1st and only if we can't, then we'll hire overseas pilots. Wouldn't it be great if our own corporations thought that way!!

I could go on and on but I won't, it's too depressing. I agree with tempering your expectations, in fact don't have any at all! You'll be better off. Getting a left seat position in a 747 isn't impossible but the odds are the same as you becoming a famous hollywood star. It's a tough business. If you really want it, if you are really that "hell-bent" on flying for a living, you had REALLY better LOVE flying because you will pay your dues. I know I have, and in spades!!!!! And I'm still getting screwed! I'm also currently unemployed, again! There's a good chance your credit score will suffer, just from all the moving around and there will be the not being able to pay your bills syndrome. Oh, and try finding a woman who's willing to put up with hardships of you "chasing an impossible dream"!! Yes there are other jobs in niche markets. I've had those too. They don't pay much and some are actually a lot of fun! But loooong hours. If none of this puts you off, then by all means.... go for it! If any of this is even creating any doubts what so ever, then just fly for fun.

Here's what I tell young wanna-be's who ask me about flying for a living. After sharing a few of my experiences with them, I tell them,"If I had it to do all over again, I'd take the money I spent on lessons and start a business, I would have been much better off".

Do I have regrets? Yes and no. I've had some great experiences, but the jury is still out on whether it was worth it.

PGT · April 15th, 2009, 21:00

Wow, awesome post Fr8dog44! Welcome to JC, we need more people like you on here to steer my generation in the right direction

3green · April 16th, 2009, 01:36

Nice post. Wish I had read something like that before I took the job flying an ERJ for pennies. Sure every industry has its problems, but damn aviation has been and will always be knee deep in problems from no hiring, low pay, pensions lost, furloughs, the list goes on and on...

Captain_Bob · April 16th, 2009, 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumblebee

I would suggest doing a search from some of these users:

CalCapt
FlyChicaga
Kellwolf
Doug Taylor
Ready2fly
Velocipede
these will lead you to others who will lead you to others and so on.

good luck!

I would think that bumblebee himself would be on that list... especially as a late bloomer in the aviation field. I think the Bee's having more fun with this career than even I am.

Bob

PGT · April 16th, 2009, 02:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

I would think that bumblebee himself would be on that list... especially as a late bloomer in the aviation field. I think the Bee's having more fun with this career than even I am.

Bob

You definitely belong on that list as well!

Bumblebee · April 16th, 2009, 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by PGT

You definitely belong on that list as well!

I am an idiot! I can't believe I didn't put Bob and Polar on my little list off the top of my head (

) Bob IS THE MAN! He has had some of the most thoughtful and educational posts ever here on JC. Definitely search Captain Bob.

out

Jester · April 18th, 2009, 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumblebee

I started at 42 years young (lol) and I have a flying career. You can too. Put up pictures in your office of where you want to end up and get going. These pictures will change as your goals focus.
Read the archives on this forum, they are filled with wisdom. I would suggest doing a search from some of these users:

CalCapt
FlyChicaga
Kellwolf
Doug Taylor
Ready2fly
Velocipede
these will lead you to others who will lead you to others and so on.

I would suggest reading all of the debates on flight schools vs. FBO's

DO NOT PAY FOR A JOB . . . this would damage the industry you want to join.

good luck!

Thanks for the direction - was wondering if anyone knew of any specific threads that these members contributed to would be helpful - must admit when i started the search there were quite a number of posts. thanks again for insight.

modernicarus · April 21st, 2009, 09:09

We're in similar boats. I started flying in 1990 but had to stop after I got my Instrument rating and ASEL/AMEL commercial due to personal issues at the time. I have always regretted stopping and have always wondered what my life would have been like had I been able to stick to it.

Well, I stopped flying but the world continued to turn. I'm 40 now and just beginning to work on my CFI (self-study) with plans to eventually go into flying aviation relief missions, but I am open-minded about other opportunities (flying or otherwise) as well. I don't think I'm too old to start flying again and find a career doing it, but I am too old to continue working at a job that I don't like just because it pays well. I want to do something that I enjoy and has more meaning than just a paycheck.

I found a few books that I was thinking about reading. One of them, that you might be interested in reading as well, is by Barbara Sher titled, "It's Only Too Late If You Don't Start Now: How to Create Your Second Life at Any Age."

I would also not recommend getting a loan for flight training. I am currently saving for my CFI (have $3k so far) and am planning on having the writtens done before I begin the flying portion (hopefully May or June). This should allow me to save another $1k and be more focused on learning how to teach and fly from the starboard seat.

Anyhow, I probably didn't help you out much, but at least you know you aren't the only guy out there getting a late start. Good luck to you.

wrxpilot · April 21st, 2009, 11:02

Just remember, there are also other types of flying out there... This site is heavily slanted towards the airlines, but they have the absolute worst quality of life compared to everything except maybe bottom of the barrel charter (which still pays a lot better than regionals).

Is the romance of flying gone? Will you no longer look out the window and realize how lucky you are once you start flying professionally? According to some of the guys in this thread, yes. I disagree though. I still love driving down to the airport for a trip, doing a little BS session with the guys and girls at the FBO when I get there, and I still get pumped when we push the power levers up for takeoff and climb out at 5000 FPM. It's pretty damn fun.

This past year I saw St Elmo's fire for the first time, as we were flying through a snowstorm above MI one dark winter night. Electricity chased my finger on the windscreen as I moved it along. How cool is that?

Whenever we're flying at night, cruising along at FL450 I'm still stunned by all of the stars we can see, with the occasional shooting star to reward our attention.

I've been able to visit some amazing places with my job, and my facebook page is stuffed with photos that make it look like I'm on a constant vacation. Enjoying great food across the US, mountain bike adventures in Phoenix, sailing in southern CA, amazing museums and food in NYC, BBQ and green chile in Texas, etc.

The experiences above are just with my current job. I've also worked as a CFI and charter pilot (crew and single pilot), and each of those also rewarded me with some awesome experiences and life long friends.

Is the job perfect? Definitely not... But I'm much happier than I was a couple of years ago, sitting in my cubicle hating my boring life as an engineer. Now my life is definitely not boring.

Would I do it again? Yes, definitely. I don't regret any part of it. If you want to enjoy your flying career, stay out of debt. Paying for your training as you go is a must. If you don't believe me, create an Excel spreadsheet and prepare some budgets for the first couple of flying jobs. Make sure you have a backup if you get laid off or furloughed.

Also, take a look at the aviation industry and see who the bitter ones are. Not too many of the corporate, fractional, and charter guys are. The airlines are a different story... Even the ones that have dream jobs are freaking bitter people. Doug at this site seems to be a rare exception.

Good luck, if you do it right, work hard, and have a little bit of luck you'll have a great time.

azfsi60 · May 1st, 2009, 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Gremlin

Others may disagree with me, but if you're starting from scratch at 36, I'd say the odds of you ending up in the front seat of a 747, 767, 777, 787 type of aircraft (A340 and A330 included) are about the same as the odds of winning the powerball lottery. That's not to say that you can't start at 36 and fly for a living. But making it to the frond seat of a heavy in the majors is going to be tough when all of your competition for those seats is 10 years younger than you are and has twice as much experience as you do.

hey gremlin....Finally something we are in agreement about.
Couldnt of said it better.

azfsi60 · May 1st, 2009, 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

Is the dream over? Nah, not really.

Is it highly unlikely that you'll be in a position to make it to the 'big leagues' and real money at this point? Yep. Doesn't really matter what your age is, the "easy in, easy up" moment has passed. If another comes around, it'll be years from now.

Most airlines have guys on the street on furlough status that will get called back before new hires get called to interview. Once you get in, you're behind all of them in line for upgrade to your first captain position.. and eventual interview at one of the 'majors'.

Ask yourself if you can sincerely live on $30,000 a year for the next 5 years combined with being away from home up to 16 days a month.

16??? Try more like 26..

It's a tough nut to crack. If you really want it bad enough, go for it and more power to ya... but don't let the flight schools selling bulk packages con you into believing there's some sort of 'pilot shortage'. If there is a shortage, it's years in coming.

azfsi60 · May 1st, 2009, 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

Is the dream over? Nah, not really.

Is it highly unlikely that you'll be in a position to make it to the 'big leagues' and real money at this point? Yep. Doesn't really matter what your age is, the "easy in, easy up" moment has passed. If another comes around, it'll be years from now.

Most airlines have guys on the street on furlough status that will get called back before new hires get called to interview. Once you get in, you're behind all of them in line for upgrade to your first captain position.. and eventual interview at one of the 'majors'.

Ask yourself if you can sincerely live on $30,000 a year for the next 5 years combined with being away from home up to 16 days a month.

It's a tough nut to crack. If you really want it bad enough, go for it and more power to ya... but don't let the flight schools selling bulk packages con you into believing there's some sort of 'pilot shortage'. If there is a shortage, it's years in coming.

16????? try more like 26

Doug Taylor · May 1st, 2009, 01:23

I know a guy who was in his late 30's that is a career changer. Stayed focused, upgraded to captain at a regional and is flying around a civilian P3 now. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that if Southernjets was hiring, with his P3 experience (this place is FULL of P3 guys) and PIC experience at a regional, he'd be in the front seat of a 767 probably out of indoc.

It really all depends on your drive, how well you're networked and keeping your head in the game. Got to play the game to win it, but you also have to accept that just showing up on the field isn't going to mean you're entitled to a touchdown.

This is coming from a guy from South "T" street in a small, dusty town in the San Joaquin valley of California with no aviation influence whatsoever in his family and a parent that thought that if man were meant to fly, we'd have wings.

LoadMasterC141 · May 1st, 2009, 02:42

3 years ago I posted a thread similarly titled to yours..."Is 31 too old to become a professional pilot?"

I got the same mixed bag answers. Sifting through all of it though, I realized it WAS possible. Look at Captain Bob. He was a mid 30s career changer. How long now Bob since you left the po po? Anyway, he went through ATP, instructed for a little over a year, and made it to ExpressJet. At 2 years, he qualified for captain. He took it at 3. When Bob first started training, there was not a single airline hiring as a result of the last downturn (9/11 mainly). Year 3 captains pay at Xjet is around $60/hr.....That is quite a bit more than 30k/yr by the way.

So here I am 3 years later, a 1000 hr CFI. My 6 figure job has been over for a year now. I work twice as hard for 1/4 the pay. A little bit of the initial glamour of flying has ebbed and there are days when it is just a job. There are times when I look back and wonder what the hell I was thinking. My goal was to flight instruct for 6 months and be at a regional. Now I am at a year and there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Then I start thinking about returning to my old industry.....and I SHUDDER! No way. I really love to fly even if it is just Cessnas and Seminoles right now.

I still worry about my age when things do turn around. At 34, I feel like an old man around the average age CFI. My aspirations are not that high though. It would be great to fly big metal, but I would be just as satsified flying a King Air.

If it is something you want...do it. Just realize that it is alot of work, costs more than you will plan for, and you have to roll with the punches. For me, it has been completely worth it, even if it ended now. Also, just because the airlines are not hiring right now, don't think training is a bad idea. They will hire again.

juskl · May 3rd, 2009, 15:09

So yesterday I went to work (flight instructing) and after a lesson, went to look at my schedule. I was told to grab a helmet (aerobatic). I didn't realize that I was going to do an aerobatic fun flight. Several guys had been given the gift of a fun flight. This was made even better by my Chief Pilot comming up to me and briefing me on our flight. We were both going out at the same time. He told me that they wanted to take pictures of eachother in flight so this was going to be a fun one.

Long story short, we took off a flight of two and headed south to our aerobatic area. We then gave these guys the rides of their lives. A bit of close in aerobatics. These guys ate it up and were snapping away with their cameras. It was the most fun I have had in an airplane to date. By the time we landed, I think my smile was bigger then the guy I gave the flight to.

Amazing...... this is why I do what I do. It was a very special time, a pivotal moment if you will. But it was a very nice reminder of why I love what I do. Anyway, I never thought three years ago that I would be teaching aerobatics in an open cockpit biplane and getting a nice healthy tip at the end. Whenever I thought of flying, I thought about biz jets (which I love) or the airlines..... Their pay is better by far, but this is flying and this is fun.... bar none..... at it's purist....

April 9th, 2009, 15:08	#26
bivguy Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: west michigan Posts: 103	Re: Is It Too Late to Look to Flying as a Career? jester welcome to jc!! listen to Zap, he seems to be a very knowledable fellow. Remember ITS a journey enjoy the ride.

April 11th, 2009, 22:15	#29
BillH Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Naples Posts: 509 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Is It Too Late to Look to Flying as a Career? Run, run away as fast as you can and find a job that requires much less skill and pays three times as much. The feelings you have towards aviation, it is unjustified romance from inexperience, hollywood, and all of your friends who HATE their job and think flying an airplane is a billion times better. A job is a job is a job is a job. Don't matter if you are a pilot or a porn star. To sum it up, there is very little demand for pilots, there are too many.

April 12th, 2009, 21:56	#30
Tld Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Nevada, or California, or wherever Posts: 841 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Is It Too Late to Look to Flying as a Career? Welcome to JC jester! While I am not as experienced or versed as many other pilots on here, I have to say that regardless of age, I think that your goals are worthwhile and attainable. I couldn't be happier that I decided to pursue flying, never is there a day I wish I hadn't. If it's your dream you have to go after it. Like some have said, there will be negatives and challenges, but that's the same in every career. Although I sometimes wish I had gotten my start earlier, because I was a little older and had a career separate from flying, I was able to afford to fly when I started. (when i started, not so much now..haha). During my private pilot training I also started working weekends at the FBO where I was taking lessons. This drastically helped offset the cost of flying as well because I got an employee rental rate (might be something to look into as a way to cut costs). Working for the FBO also exposed me to many different types of pilots and gave me a glimpse into different career paths as well as offer me that 'real world' experience to which I believe you were referring. The greatest advice I can give is exactly the advice I received here on JC: Go for it! but be smart about it. And talk to people, meet as many other pilots as possible, you will learn so much from them. There are many paths to flying as a career, just have to find which training route and career will work best for you. Keep us posted on your progress and have fun! Last edited by Tld; April 12th, 2009 at 22:01. Reason: :)

April 14th, 2009, 20:13	#32
hotice Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 52	Re: Is It Too Late to Look to Flying as a Career? It's never to late as long as you know what you are getting into, and it's going to be a rough ride.

April 15th, 2009, 12:45	#34
Bumblebee Super Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Home on Mt. Vandervere! Posts: 3,042	Re: Is It Too Late to Look to Flying as a Career? I started at 42 years young (lol) and I have a flying career. You can too. Put up pictures in your office of where you want to end up and get going. These pictures will change as your goals focus. Read the archives on this forum, they are filled with wisdom. I would suggest doing a search from some of these users: CalCapt FlyChicaga Kellwolf Doug Taylor Ready2fly Velocipede these will lead you to others who will lead you to others and so on. I would suggest reading all of the debates on flight schools vs. FBO's DO NOT PAY FOR A JOB . . . this would damage the industry you want to join. good luck! __________________ “Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe, it can achieve.” “Tell everyone what you want to do and someone will want to help you do it.” both quotes by W. Clement Stone

April 15th, 2009, 13:54	#35
Hernandezcfi Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Manassas, VA Posts: 255	Re: Is It Too Late to Look to Flying as a Career? I bet all of us flying for a living miss that romance of flying that you experienced. Once you get the job, you will realize that it is a JOB. Looking out the window and enjoying the view while flying any heading and altitude you wish in Visual conditions will be a thing of the past. Waking up on a sunny Sunday afternoon and heading to the airport at your leisure will be a thing of the past. You will be yanked from a deep sleep at 4am with that special ring from crew scheduling while on reserve to go fly a leg or three at a madhouse where you will spend as much time on the ground as you do in the air. Once you do get in the air, you won't have time to enjoy the view because you will be in Instrument conditions working to comply with headings and altitudes ATC gives you. You may be flying in weather that you do not like to fly in but you must because it's your job. You may be pushing 5 days away from your family but it's your job. My point is, the pleasure you experienced flying an airplane is not what the airline business is about. Its about getting passengers from point A to point B in a fashion that makes the people above you happy no matter how you feel about it. You must also be prepared to go thru alot of stuff to hold a thankless job where your seat has a eject button that someone at a safe warm office on the ground has their finger on at all times. You will not have a name to that person just a number and as much as they don't like to push the eject button, they won't hesitate if the bean counters show red on the balance sheet. It wont matter if you need new shoes or your rent is due. If it sounds like I dislike my job, I don't. I am proud of what I do and I take the bad with the good. I just think you should know that it's not what you may imagine. It's like being in love with a woman who abuses you. The job will demand the utmost commitment to survive! __________________ SF 340, Assistant Pimp CFI, I, ME

April 15th, 2009, 16:13	#36
Fr8dog44 Newbie Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Mendecino Posts: 5	Re: Is It Too Late to Look to Flying as a Career? Well, I must admit, I've read some interesting things on this topic, some true some not. I started at 31 and am now in my 50's and have been a professional pilot for 18 years. I have thousands of hours of flying time, everything from single-engine cessnas to corporate jets. I have been unemployed as much if not more than employed. Aviation isn't what it used to be, in fact, years ago it was great. Since Frank Lorenzo destroyed Eastern Airlines and Reagan deregulated aviation, it's been all downhill. One person said "it's a business" and he's right. It's now run by bean-counters and lying, back-stabbing, ruthless businesss types, especially in the charter arena. Some of the "true" stories I could tell you! Here's what you need to know, AGE IS A FACTOR!! Trust me on this. I have watched age discrimination take place right before my eyes. It's that obvious! And when I called them on it, they quickly coverd their tracks. And they are very good at covering their tracks. Two in particular, Comair and Pinnacle. Commuters and Regionals want "Young, Fresh, Meat" that they can chew up and spit out at will while paying below poverty level wages. Young, idealistic pilots with dreams and asperations are willing targets for their excuses for paying low wages in exchange for experience. I've been hearing this ALL my carreer, even after I've accumilated thousands of hours of flying time. They all sing the "we ain't got no money" blues!! Why do you think that plane went down outside of Buffalo not too long ago? Inexperience!!! They don't care! Profit is the goal and let the Insurance companies deal with the mis-haps! The other thing that was said is "don't pay for a job"! I agree with that! However, here's the reality. For every one pilot who sticks to his guns, there are a hundred pilots who WILL PAY for a job, and the companies know it! Especially where Type-Ratings are concerned! Now, to be fair, there are many ass-hole pilots who were hired, sent for type training and took the first offer for more pay by some other company and left the first company holding the bag for the costs. This isn't fair! And I can understand why most companies no longer wish to foot the bill for type-ratings. We all have these superlative, greedy little, self indulgent a-holes for screwing the rest of us on this issue! You guys know who you are.... thank you very little!!! And while I'm on the subject of "fellow pilots" ... The Industry seems to be attracting a few too many "back-stabbers". Yes, this has become a VERY competitive industry. There are more and more pilots and fewer seats. As such, it's bringing out the worst in some pilots. There are pilots badmouthing other pilots just to get them fired so they can move into their position. It's happening more and more and all to frequently. Even when it's not true, if another pilot says your incompetant, the company has to look at it! And there's nothing you can do about it. Imagine spending upwards of $100,000 to get all your qualifications only to get blown out of the water by some slime-bag who probably is himself a lousy pilot!! Something to think about!! Also, Ameriflight, Alpine-Air and a few others are selling right-seat time for thousands of dollars and there are no shortage of pilots with rich parents paying for it. I know, I've seen it first hand! I flew with them! It's true many of them are from other countries who come here to build time, then go back and obtain good to great paying jobs. Our corporations love these guys. It's pure profit. Unfortunatley, our corporations are pimps and we are turned into prostitutes and there's little we can do about. When you look into overseas job, which I have, they tell you "nationals first, oversea pilots last". We'll train our own 1st and only if we can't, then we'll hire overseas pilots. Wouldn't it be great if our own corporations thought that way!! I could go on and on but I won't, it's too depressing. I agree with tempering your expectations, in fact don't have any at all! You'll be better off. Getting a left seat position in a 747 isn't impossible but the odds are the same as you becoming a famous hollywood star. It's a tough business. If you really want it, if you are really that "hell-bent" on flying for a living, you had REALLY better LOVE flying because you will pay your dues. I know I have, and in spades!!!!! And I'm still getting screwed! I'm also currently unemployed, again! There's a good chance your credit score will suffer, just from all the moving around and there will be the not being able to pay your bills syndrome. Oh, and try finding a woman who's willing to put up with hardships of you "chasing an impossible dream"!! Yes there are other jobs in niche markets. I've had those too. They don't pay much and some are actually a lot of fun! But loooong hours. If none of this puts you off, then by all means.... go for it! If any of this is even creating any doubts what so ever, then just fly for fun. Here's what I tell young wanna-be's who ask me about flying for a living. After sharing a few of my experiences with them, I tell them,"If I had it to do all over again, I'd take the money I spent on lessons and start a business, I would have been much better off". Do I have regrets? Yes and no. I've had some great experiences, but the jury is still out on whether it was worth it.

April 15th, 2009, 21:00	#37
PGT Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: IA Posts: 4,286	Re: Is It Too Late to Look to Flying as a Career? Wow, awesome post Fr8dog44! Welcome to JC, we need more people like you on here to steer my generation in the right direction __________________ College Student CSEL/IR. 270TT. CMEL soon. PUNBAT 8. "The good old days weren't all that good, and tomorrow's not as bad as it seems"

April 16th, 2009, 01:36	#38
3green Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: wish it was Oz, unfortunately its the airport Posts: 209	Re: Is It Too Late to Look to Flying as a Career? Nice post. Wish I had read something like that before I took the job flying an ERJ for pennies. Sure every industry has its problems, but damn aviation has been and will always be knee deep in problems from no hiring, low pay, pensions lost, furloughs, the list goes on and on... __________________ </div>

April 21st, 2009, 09:09	#43
modernicarus Junior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: SW Michigan Posts: 214	Re: Is It Too Late to Look to Flying as a Career? We're in similar boats. I started flying in 1990 but had to stop after I got my Instrument rating and ASEL/AMEL commercial due to personal issues at the time. I have always regretted stopping and have always wondered what my life would have been like had I been able to stick to it. Well, I stopped flying but the world continued to turn. I'm 40 now and just beginning to work on my CFI (self-study) with plans to eventually go into flying aviation relief missions, but I am open-minded about other opportunities (flying or otherwise) as well. I don't think I'm too old to start flying again and find a career doing it, but I am too old to continue working at a job that I don't like just because it pays well. I want to do something that I enjoy and has more meaning than just a paycheck. I found a few books that I was thinking about reading. One of them, that you might be interested in reading as well, is by Barbara Sher titled, "It's Only Too Late If You Don't Start Now: How to Create Your Second Life at Any Age." I would also not recommend getting a loan for flight training. I am currently saving for my CFI (have $3k so far) and am planning on having the writtens done before I begin the flying portion (hopefully May or June). This should allow me to save another $1k and be more focused on learning how to teach and fly from the starboard seat. Anyhow, I probably didn't help you out much, but at least you know you aren't the only guy out there getting a late start. Good luck to you. __________________ "Live out of your imagination, not your history." - Stephen Covey

April 21st, 2009, 11:02	#44
wrxpilot Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: South FL (sometimes) Posts: 720	Re: Is It Too Late to Look to Flying as a Career? Just remember, there are also other types of flying out there... This site is heavily slanted towards the airlines, but they have the absolute worst quality of life compared to everything except maybe bottom of the barrel charter (which still pays a lot better than regionals). Is the romance of flying gone? Will you no longer look out the window and realize how lucky you are once you start flying professionally? According to some of the guys in this thread, yes. I disagree though. I still love driving down to the airport for a trip, doing a little BS session with the guys and girls at the FBO when I get there, and I still get pumped when we push the power levers up for takeoff and climb out at 5000 FPM. It's pretty damn fun. This past year I saw St Elmo's fire for the first time, as we were flying through a snowstorm above MI one dark winter night. Electricity chased my finger on the windscreen as I moved it along. How cool is that? Whenever we're flying at night, cruising along at FL450 I'm still stunned by all of the stars we can see, with the occasional shooting star to reward our attention. I've been able to visit some amazing places with my job, and my facebook page is stuffed with photos that make it look like I'm on a constant vacation. Enjoying great food across the US, mountain bike adventures in Phoenix, sailing in southern CA, amazing museums and food in NYC, BBQ and green chile in Texas, etc. The experiences above are just with my current job. I've also worked as a CFI and charter pilot (crew and single pilot), and each of those also rewarded me with some awesome experiences and life long friends. Is the job perfect? Definitely not... But I'm much happier than I was a couple of years ago, sitting in my cubicle hating my boring life as an engineer. Now my life is definitely not boring. Would I do it again? Yes, definitely. I don't regret any part of it. If you want to enjoy your flying career, stay out of debt. Paying for your training as you go is a must. If you don't believe me, create an Excel spreadsheet and prepare some budgets for the first couple of flying jobs. Make sure you have a backup if you get laid off or furloughed. Also, take a look at the aviation industry and see who the bitter ones are. Not too many of the corporate, fractional, and charter guys are. The airlines are a different story... Even the ones that have dream jobs are freaking bitter people. Doug at this site seems to be a rare exception. Good luck, if you do it right, work hard, and have a little bit of luck you'll have a great time.

May 1st, 2009, 01:23	#48
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 49,967 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Is It Too Late to Look to Flying as a Career? I know a guy who was in his late 30's that is a career changer. Stayed focused, upgraded to captain at a regional and is flying around a civilian P3 now. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that if Southernjets was hiring, with his P3 experience (this place is FULL of P3 guys) and PIC experience at a regional, he'd be in the front seat of a 767 probably out of indoc. It really all depends on your drive, how well you're networked and keeping your head in the game. Got to play the game to win it, but you also have to accept that just showing up on the field isn't going to mean you're entitled to a touchdown. This is coming from a guy from South "T" street in a small, dusty town in the San Joaquin valley of California with no aviation influence whatsoever in his family and a parent that thought that if man were meant to fly, we'd have wings. __________________ Doug Taylor PPL-SEL PA-38 Typed

May 1st, 2009, 02:42	#49
LoadMasterC141 Old Skool Join Date: May 2006 Location: Live in Arlington, TX - From Ithaca, NY - Wish I was on an island in Fiji Posts: 2,384	Re: Is It Too Late to Look to Flying as a Career? 3 years ago I posted a thread similarly titled to yours..."Is 31 too old to become a professional pilot?" I got the same mixed bag answers. Sifting through all of it though, I realized it WAS possible. Look at Captain Bob. He was a mid 30s career changer. How long now Bob since you left the po po? Anyway, he went through ATP, instructed for a little over a year, and made it to ExpressJet. At 2 years, he qualified for captain. He took it at 3. When Bob first started training, there was not a single airline hiring as a result of the last downturn (9/11 mainly). Year 3 captains pay at Xjet is around $60/hr.....That is quite a bit more than 30k/yr by the way. So here I am 3 years later, a 1000 hr CFI. My 6 figure job has been over for a year now. I work twice as hard for 1/4 the pay. A little bit of the initial glamour of flying has ebbed and there are days when it is just a job. There are times when I look back and wonder what the hell I was thinking. My goal was to flight instruct for 6 months and be at a regional. Now I am at a year and there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Then I start thinking about returning to my old industry.....and I SHUDDER! No way. I really love to fly even if it is just Cessnas and Seminoles right now. I still worry about my age when things do turn around. At 34, I feel like an old man around the average age CFI. My aspirations are not that high though. It would be great to fly big metal, but I would be just as satsified flying a King Air. If it is something you want...do it. Just realize that it is alot of work, costs more than you will plan for, and you have to roll with the punches. For me, it has been completely worth it, even if it ended now. Also, just because the airlines are not hiring right now, don't think training is a bad idea. They will hire again. __________________ AMEL, ASEL, IFR Gold Seal Instructor, CFI, CFII, MEI, IGI 1310TT 620ME (135 mins! I can haz job now?) Ex- USAF C141B Crewmember Ex- Cube Monkey Getting paid to fly! (little stuff)

May 3rd, 2009, 15:09	#50
juskl Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 326	Re: Is It Too Late to Look to Flying as a Career? So yesterday I went to work (flight instructing) and after a lesson, went to look at my schedule. I was told to grab a helmet (aerobatic). I didn't realize that I was going to do an aerobatic fun flight. Several guys had been given the gift of a fun flight. This was made even better by my Chief Pilot comming up to me and briefing me on our flight. We were both going out at the same time. He told me that they wanted to take pictures of eachother in flight so this was going to be a fun one. Long story short, we took off a flight of two and headed south to our aerobatic area. We then gave these guys the rides of their lives. A bit of close in aerobatics. These guys ate it up and were snapping away with their cameras. It was the most fun I have had in an airplane to date. By the time we landed, I think my smile was bigger then the guy I gave the flight to. Amazing...... this is why I do what I do. It was a very special time, a pivotal moment if you will. But it was a very nice reminder of why I love what I do. Anyway, I never thought three years ago that I would be teaching aerobatics in an open cockpit biplane and getting a nice healthy tip at the end. Whenever I thought of flying, I thought about biz jets (which I love) or the airlines..... Their pay is better by far, but this is flying and this is fun.... bar none..... at it's purist....

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