Some Advice? for a veryyyy confused individual

[vick_7ca]

Hey guys, I'm relatively new to this website. I'm 20 years old, in university doing a degree in commerce, majoring in marketing/hr. Ever since I was a young child, I've wanted to be a commercial pilot, but I've always felt it was a dream too far out of my reach. I decided id work as close as I could to planes as possible, and now I have a p/t job with an airline. But at the same time this has all brought back all those thoughts of becoming a pilot, they're just so damn cool.

But the question is....is it realistic that I still have a chance of becoming a commercial pilot? I plan to finish my degree, and i will probably be 22/23 once I'm done. I haven't flown at all, except for an introductory flight lesson i took, and i loved it. I would love to fly in India somewhere, i'm actually Canadian born an raised, but my parents are from India, and its a place i'm very comfortable with. As stupid it may seem, I always aim high, so flying turboprops isn't really my thing, no offense to anyone, but i know thats where i might have to start but the big jets are where id hope to see myself one day if i do choose to go down this career path... I know i may be dreaming, and its hard to get a chance to fly those big jets..but id love to here some of your advice, or warnings..whatever it may be haha..

so in conclusion...

-what kinds of costs am i looking at, if i choose to fufill my dream
-how long would the training and etc take..b4 im in the right hand seat
-i dont mind being a FO my whole life, but realistically what are the chances i could fly a b777, w/ air india, jet etc..
-where should i complete my flight training, at home in canada..or india?
-i could easily get dual citizenship..would that increase my chances?
-if i choose to make the switch, i would potentially be saying no to a $100 000, marketing/hr job...stupid on my part?

thanks guys..im sorry for rambling on like an idiot..please feel free to contact me through pm also, i really appreciate it..

[mooneyguy]

-what kinds of costs am I looking at, if I choose to fulfill my dream

It is expensive yes, but compare flight training to your 4 year degree. You will probably spend more on the degree. figure 40-50K PPL to CFI/mei

-how long would the training and etc take..b4 im in the right hand seat
You could easily finish all the certificates and rating in 6 months full time.
Just like most other careers you have to start at the bottom and work your way up. Figure a year as a cfi then move up to a regional.

-i dont mind being a FO my whole life, but realistically what are the chances i could fly a b777, w/ air india, jet etc..
you are young and you have the time. If you pursued flying you should have no real problem getting into the heavy stuff

-where should i complete my flight training, at home in canada..or india?
not sure about this one

-i could easily get dual citizenship..would that increase my chances?
-if i choose to make the switch, i would potentially be saying no to a $100 000, marketing/hr job...stupid on my part?

I believe a person should do what they want to do...if you just chase a paycheck your whole life you will be miserable...IMO

[Boris Badenov]

I would not advise embarking on an aviation career in the US right now. That said, flight schools are overflowing with Indian nationals who (rumor has it) are floating through their Commercial licenses here and going home to the right seat of an airliner at very low time. Apparently a wave of nationalism has sparked a crash (if you'll pardon the expression) program to get rid of all the expat pilots and crew the aircraft with Indians. Bad for me. Good for you, potentially. I would try to get in touch with someone who knows the scene in Indian aviation and present your question to them. As I said, all of my information is total hearsay and you shouldn't base a decision on it, but if half of it is true, you could be in a pretty good position to pursue your dream.

[splash]

If the money is good save it by the bucket fulls then make the switch. If you fail at the switch go back to where the bucket fulls are. Wait and see what happens to this industry in about 5 years. Bad times right now. Good luck.

[skidz]

Originally Posted by vick_7ca

But the question is....is it realistic that I still have a chance of becoming a commercial pilot? I plan to finish my degree, and i will probably be 22/23 once I'm done...

geez man...some folks started at 45 or later and still made it nicely
It's not about whether you will make it or not, it's whether you're medically fit and can afford it and whether it fits your lifestyle. It may be cumbersome on family guys. If you decide flying is your thing don't worry about what you fly, turboprops or jets (btw turboprops are jets with propellers which makes them even more awesome ) work your way up and study hard and you'll have a chance to fly whatever you want

[vick_7ca]

yea i believe i wouldnt have a problem with the medicals..im in excellent physical shape, its just the thought that it might take me absolutely forever to get into the industry thats scaring me a little bit..if i start at the age of 23....how long does it usually take?..a pretty generic question i understand...but i just need to know a timeline...if anyone can answer that question..

[3green]

First, you really should get your 1st class medical. I assume your not a doctor so "believing" you'll pass the medical doesn't mean you will. That will save you alot of time and grief if for some unknown reason you don't pass. Its good your asking these questions before you start.

It doesn't matter if you do your training in canada or the USA. Both recognize each others licenses. Once you get your ratings in either Canada/USA you just have to take the medical and written for the country you want to convert it to.

Now the bad news is this industry is blowing right now. Do some more research, there are alot of fellas/gals on the street right now and it doesn't look like its getting better. India should be doing okay, but the wages blow over there(asia) for the locals.

[splash]

Originally Posted by vick_7ca

....how long does it usually take?..a pretty generic question i understand...but i just need to know a timeline...if anyone can answer that question..

How long does the training take? or from beginning of training until flying a jet?

Fist question answer is: depends on how much money you have or type of loan you can get which means how often you can train.

Second question answer is: depends on who you know or how much are you willing to ##### yourself "paying dues" . Timing is key most of all though. It's a roller coaster.

[USMC-SSGT]

As stupid it may seem, I always aim high, so flying turboprops isn't really my thing

This is where I stopped reading.

[vick_7ca]

Originally Posted by USMC-SGT

This is where I stopped reading.

lol i apoligize, i didnt mean too offend you..i have no right to make fun of those who fly turboprops...but you gotta understand..its not really my thing..but still, it doesnt mean i wouldnt fly one..if it would mean my entry into the industry

[USMC-SSGT]

It is ok but i sentence you to hard time in a JS31 or a BE1900.

I would never want to fly an old beat down plane like a Q400. I want a jet like a DC9!

[spilot]

You'll probably have a faster path to the big jet if gaining experience flying in Canada (flight instruct), and then getting on board with an Indian carrier. The more Citizenships you hold, the more territory of options you'll have. Never hurts.

Looking back at how my life have turned out so far, I think I would have had better options/more security and perhaps would be flying something bigger today, if I had not been so quick to leave the money and jump for the pilot job. When you have a lot of money, you can always make more of it quite easily, or if you have a high paying job, you can create money. Once you're at the point of broke, exhausted your capital, you're no longer in a position to pursue, hold out for, wait, or otherwise achieve dreams/the dream job. You become a slave for the next paycheck, and ...you may suddenly find yourself flying something much less attractive than a turboprop, just to get by.

Once you pay for flight school, especially if you do it all at once, and work as a pilot/instructor for a while, you'll part with your money quickly (unless you have the means to pay for it all at once). Although you may get by cheaper, I would plan for up to $100,000 in flight training costs. If you're also going to get Indian conversions or JAR conversion, add perhaps $40-50,000.

If you'd be able to stretch out the expenses of your flight training, so that you'd be able to keep a high amount of money, and only use part of your cash flow (investment profit etc) to pay for flight training, you'd be certified and perhaps an experienced pilot with cash reserves that you'll need to change jobs, survive sitting in hiring pools etc. I'd say, if you have a choice, and it seems like you do, you should strive very hard to make sure you still have plenty of cash left over after you're done with flight training.

I'm perhaps not making sense, just trying to hit the point that avoiding getting to the point where you don't have the comfort, time and opportunity for patience, that comes from having money, is important when pursuing dreams at full speed. Without the money, you'll necessarily be struggling with, and using your energy, for the day-to-day survival, instead of pursuing dreams. Getting a high paying job like you say you have opportunity for, will perhaps be of more value toward getting into a big jet, because if you end up without money, you'll be pursuing that paycheck too badly, and not afford the moves/risks you'll need to take getting to the big jet.

I've got kinda the same situation as you, coming from a foreign nation, pursuing flight training in America, options to join carriers in a home nation, but unfortunately I've lost the excess capital means needed to buy me the time to pursue those jobs. Contributing negative factors, the collapse of the dollar, a wife, spending habits etc. Anyways...Now I'm rambling like an idiot too...

23 years old is still a young age to enter flight training. Most of the people I see are actually older... You may not be a desired candidate for the big airplanes at too young age anyway, if the carrier wants to maintain an image of maturity with its flight crews. So say you'll be 29-30 when you apply, you'll have 6-7 years to make yourself ready for the pilot interview. In those years you should be able to have time to make money (2 years), do 1 year of flight training, 1 year instructing, 2 years as FO in a turboprop or babyjet, 1 year as babyjet captain...and you're ready to apply to be FO in a big jet. If at any point you become poor, you may delay this significantly by loosing your mobility and all mentioned above.

[3green]

i didnt mean too offend you..i have no right to make fun of those who fly turboprops...but you gotta understand..its not really my thing..but still, it doesnt mean i wouldnt fly one..if it would mean my entry into the industry

Uh, you might want to check your thought process now. I know your not trying to offend anyone but realistically with the attitude like that your only hurting yourself. If your not even flying a twin engine piston yet and your already knocking a turboprop that sounds like you need to realize you have a looong road ahead before you get to fly professionally(especially with the current state of the industry). So my point is how are you going to build your hours? You don't even want to fly a turboprop willingly, you gonna fly a single or twin piston with students or is that below you too???

I'm trying not to sound too harsh, but you need to find out more how this industry works before convincing yourself you aren't going to fly a turboprop. Me thinks you have a baaaad case of SJS my friend!

[subpilot]

he'll learn. He is still young and green.

[Bumblebee]

Originally Posted by vick_7ca

As stupid it may seem, I always aim high, so flying turboprops isn't really my thing,

Have you flown one?
I understand that if you are looking at the end of your career then maybe I can see this point. By the same logic, if you're not into turboprops, then I'm pretty sure piston singles aren't going to work for you either. . .get my point?
It's all a process. I have to say that I love flying my T-Prop. Every jet pilot that flew the Bro says that they miss flying it. I can say that I have learned so much more by flying it first.

So what you say here is a common rookie perspective that will change as you gain experience in flying and in life.

You are in the right place, however, if it weren't for JC, I would not be a Captain (on a turboprop, which is much higher than on the ground) right now.

[vick_7ca]

Originally Posted by Bumblebee

Have you flown one?
I understand that if you are looking at the end of your career then maybe I can see this point. By the same logic, if you're not into turboprops, then I'm pretty sure piston singles aren't going to work for you either. . .get my point?
It's all a process. I have to say that I love flying my T-Prop. Every jet pilot that flew the Bro says that they miss flying it. I can say that I have learned so much more by flying it first.

So what you say here is a common rookie perspective that will change as you gain experience in flying and in life.

You are in the right place, however, if it weren't for JC, I would not be a Captain (on a turboprop, which is much higher than on the ground) right now.

haha, everyone seems too dwell on that quote, i regret saying that now..but still...its coming from someone who hasnt even stepped on a plane...except as a passenger...so i might have a change in thought once i begin flying...but now..i just want to know...like what are the odds ill end up in a boeing 777...or maybe even a 787, whenever that is in the air..or any widebody...i hope its not like a lottery...thats only a lucky few win the honor...

[Bumblebee]

Originally Posted by vick_7ca

haha, everyone seems too dwell on that quote, i regret saying that now..but still...its coming from someone who hasnt even stepped on a plane...except as a passenger...so i might have a change in thought once i begin flying...but now..i just want to know...like what are the odds ill end up in a boeing 777...or maybe even a 787, whenever that is in the air..or any widebody...i hope its not like a lottery...thats only a lucky few win the honor...

It's cool, don't regret it, learn from it. If you don't enjoy the process of learning to fly and then learning to teach, (thinking you've really learned to fly) then becoming a rookie then becoming a rookie captain then becoming a rookie again . . . well you get my drift.

Life is a process, the joy is in the journey. You will continue to hear this from older people, and some young mature folks as well.

When I started to fly, I looked forward to flying a jet, and I could be flying a jet right now, but I found that flying a turboprop has taught me so much about flying, and it's a great airplane. Matter of fact, the jet guys I speak with tell me to enjoy it, because to a fault they miss it.

From the first day you begin flying, do it as a professional. When you study do it as if your life and career depend on it. Do not diminish the importance of the lessons in the 152, because it's not a triple7. Flying is flying is flying.
There is a story I have to go find it about the process . . .

maybe someone has the story about the 152 instructor looking up at the regional airline pilot thinking that he would be happy once he becomes a regional pilot. Then it moves to the regional guy looking up at a 737 pilot thinking he would be happy once he's at a major flying narrow bodies. Then the 73 guy looking up at a 74 wishing he could fly the widebodies internationally . . . then he'd be happy. Then the 74 guy wishing he could have been an astronaut on the shuttle, boy if he could have done that he would be happy. Then the shuttle astronaut looking down through the binoculars at the 152 who says, I remember when I used to fly the 152, that was the most fun I ever had flying.

Aim high, I do.

[staplegun]

Originally Posted by vick_7ca

haha, everyone seems too dwell on that quote, i regret saying that now..but still...its coming from someone who hasnt even stepped on a plane...except as a passenger...so i might have a change in thought once i begin flying...but now..i just want to know...like what are the odds ill end up in a boeing 777...or maybe even a 787, whenever that is in the air..or any widebody...i hope its not like a lottery...thats only a lucky few win the honor...

Persistence, experience, timing, luck - in that order.

I'm where you want to be right now but it took me awhile to get there.

My path:

1981-1987, US Naval aviator. I flew helicopters and then was an instructor pilot in T-34C's (a turboprop!)

1987-1988, Pan Am Express/Ransome. ATR-42 (that "turboprop" word again...)

1988-1991, USAir. F-28 (my first "jet") and DC-9 First Officer.

1992-present, Delta. B-727 flight engineer, then furloughed for 3 & 1/2 years, flying C-9B's in the Naval Reserve and working in "the real world." Back to Delta, B-737, Md-88 F/O.

2000-present, finally got where I wanted to be, wide-body co-pilot flying international on B-767. Currently B-777 F/O.


From starting flight school at 22 years old to first international First Officer gig took me 19 years...


That's my path, others have done it quicker and some are still not there.

Do your homework and keep an open mind. If you decide to go for it be persistent, gain experience, be ready when timing is in your favor and the luck will come!

My opinon, YMMV! (you mileage may vary!)



Kevin

[SurfandSun]

Oh to be 20 and in college. Well, first bit of advice is to have as much fun in college as possilbe because that should be the time of your life. Second, you won't make 100k in your first seven years of anything right out of college and you will be lucky to even find a job in marketing in this economy. Marketing is the first thing to go when times are bad. A little Econ 101 for you. Marketing and pilots hahaha.

Now on to the pilot stuff....

1. Get your private license next summer.
2. The next summer get instrument

After you get out of college you should get your CFI and instruct for a while.

Start with that. I recommend just thinking ahead in two year increments. That's a lifetime at age 20 anyway.

ps.

Listen to the senior pilots on JC. You will notice a common theme. It took them a really really long time to get to where they want to be and they had to fly all kinds of things along the way.

[Bumblebee]

Originally Posted by SurfandSun

Oh to be 20 and in college. Well, first bit of advice is to have as much fun in college as possilbe because that should be the time of your life. Second, you won't make 100k in your first seven years of anything right out of college and you will be lucky to even find a job in marketing in this economy. Marketing is the first thing to go when times are bad. A little Econ 101 for you. Marketing and pilots hahaha.

Now on to the pilot stuff....

1. Get your private license next summer.
2. The next summer get instrument

After you get out of college you should get your CFI and instruct for a while.

Start with that. I recommend just thinking ahead in two year increments. That's a lifetime at age 20 anyway.

ps.

Listen to the senior pilots on JC. You will notice a common theme. It took them a really really long time to get to where they want to be and they had to fly all kinds of things along the way.

Hey speak for yourself . . . it only took me four and a half years to become a turbo prop captain . . . oh yeah that was because I listened to the senior guys here at JC . . . how about that!

[vick_7ca]

i really appreciate all your responses, you all have gone out of your way to offer some advice, and i believe that yea..i am going to give it a shot..i rather spend life at 36000 ft, rather then sitting in a office 9-5, typing away.

just a small question...if anyone can answer this?

ive read on these forums that india plans to do away with all of their expats by 2010, i am canadian born..but my parents are indian..if i apply for dual citizenship...am i technically an expat, because im canadian born...or what..just been trying to figure out what exactly an ex pat is...and whether i fit the mold..

[cfii2007]

What is an expat?

[Customx]

Originally Posted by Bumblebee

someone who gives up their citizenship . . . expatriot

I thought it was someone who lives outside of the country they were raised in. I would never give up my American citizenship to live in Korea

[Bumblebee]

Originally Posted by Customx

I thought it was someone who lives outside of the country they were raised in. I would never give up my American citizenship to live in Korea

I was wrong and you are right . . . my wife just corrected me

[vick_7ca]

ohh shoot..so im an expat then?