Is it just a little boy's dream or a real job?

[mtsu_av8er]

Why do I do it? Because I love it. Is it my childhood dream? Yep. Do I want to do anything else? Nope. Even if the money was dangled in front of me, I love flying for a living.

[3enginejock]

So people expect to hop into a regional at 500 hour or less and make big bucks? Are you kidding me?

Im perfectly fine with making 20k a year for the first year of flying.

Now if im making 20k a year after 4-5 years flying and over 2000 hours then yes there will be a problem but ill cross that bridge when the time comes.

[skidz]

Originally Posted by ZapBrannigan

There will always be people willing to do what it takes to fly for a living because the alternative is finding a real job.

he-he-he I always like to say I'm tired of having a real job. I wanna be a pilot for a change

[ZapBrannigan]

Originally Posted by 3enginejock

Now if im making 20k a year after 4-5 years flying and over 2000 hours then yes there will be a problem but ill cross that bridge when the time comes.

And that, my young padiwan, is the crux of it. When you're in your mid-30s, closing on 10,000 hours TT, and all of the sudden you need to start over, at the bottom of the seniority list (again in some cases) making $20,000...

...then you wonder if Skid's question has merit.

[3enginejock]

If your taking a job at a regional as an experianced pilot with 10000TT then that is your mistake right there.

Assuming most of those hours were airline hours, you could easily get a job making pretty good money. Maybe not in the USA but in Asia, Europe or even Africa. Even in the USA, with 10000 you could get a job at a lot of places and make decent money. World Airways is looking for MD-11 FO's right now and you will start at 60k a year.

Starting over sucks in the USA but its the nature of the business here. If you dont want to start over as an FO you could always go abroad where a lot of companies will hire captains from the street and then you will make Captains pay from day 1. Ive watched my uncle go from 150k a year to 40k a year, then back up to over 100k just to watch him get laid off again and start over at 50k at world. Now hes a captain at world making 160k a year. Its up and down.

[BugSmasher]

Another cool thread, Skidz. Yeah it is a little boy's dream, and cubicles tend to deplete dreams. Come to think of it, little boys are pretty smart. They tend to want cool jobs, like Fireman, Pilot, Soldier, or Tyrannosaurus Rex.

How many 20-something Assistant Regional Paperclip Coordinator II's would consider whether they're living out their dreams. No, it's more like, "achieving progressively responsible career goals within my skill set."

Despite the difficulties many folks are having right now, the state of affairs at the moment shouldn't deter the serious dreamers. Presumably, chasing an intangible "dream" is to be able to weather pitfalls, and appreciate small, gradual steps.

"Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, Life is a broken-winged bird that cannot fly,
Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams go, life is a barren field, frozen with snow." - Langston Hughes

[FlyChicaga]

Very well said Luka.

[ZapBrannigan]

Originally Posted by 3enginejock

If your taking a job at a regional as an experianced pilot with 10000TT then that is your mistake right there.

Assuming most of those hours were airline hours, you could easily get a job making pretty good money. Maybe not in the USA but in Asia, Europe or even Africa. Even in the USA, with 10000 you could get a job at a lot of places and make decent money.

Spoken like a kid without a family. I had about 7000 TT when I went to Comair after a couple of furloughs. Not everyone can pack up their lives and move to another continent.

Do it while you're young, because when you get older life happens.

[Ian J]

One comment and one question:

Comment: Zap is extraordinarily experienced in these things. Were I a pro-pilot wanna-be I'd hang on his every word.

Question: Why do pilots always think the opposite of a flying job is a cubicle job?

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by BugSmasher

Another cool thread, Skidz. Yeah it is a little boy's dream, and cubicles tend to deplete dreams. Come to think of it, little boys are pretty smart. They tend to want cool jobs, like Fireman, Pilot, Soldier, or Tyrannosaurus Rex.

Sorry, one more comment: that was funny as hell. Reminds me of a Calvin and Hobbes strip!

[ZapBrannigan]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Comment: Zap is extraordinarily experienced in these things. Were I a pro-pilot wanna-be I'd hang on his every word.

It's not my experience in being furloughed so much. If this guy wants to traipse all over the planet chasing an elusive pilot "career" then the more power to him. For me, the choice was different. Family comes first.

[3green]

Its funny hearing people talking about having to move all over the world just to work a "dream job". That sounds like a nightmare to me. Its bad enough commuting working for a regional in the USA.

Zap is right, unless your a serial-single guy and don't care about your friends, family, personal life moving all over the world is not a good option. But hey, its a "dream-job" right? Now that's what I call sacrificing for a dream!

[ZapBrannigan]

Originally Posted by 3green

Now that's what I call sacrificing for a dream!

And how!

But somebody on here will just tell me I didn't love it enough, or want it bad enough.

Why is it on a board like this where those have been there share info with those who haven't, we are chastised for telling the truth. Well guys, sometimes in this profession the truth isn't as good as we hoped it might be. Wouldn't you rather be prepared then to go blissfully ignorant into the unknown?

Perhaps some of us seem negative, but rest assured we're trying to HELP you here. Honest.

[3enginejock]

I did not say you HAD to move all over the world. I said there is money if that is an option for you. If you absolutly must stay in the US then your gonna have to lump it and start over like everyone else when you get layed off and make 50-60k a year. Which honestly is not THAT bad. If you cant find a job with 10000 hours making that kind of money then you might wanna think about a career change.

I know a lot of career pilots and Ive watched them get furloughed and then start over. This has been the way aviation has been for a long time its not just the current market.

[3green]

Well guys, sometimes in this profession the truth isn't as good as we hoped it might be. Wouldn't you rather be prepared then to go blissfully ignorant into the unknown?

Yup ZaP, I guess all we can do as good citizen's of this planet is to pass on the experience and knowledge we have. But hey, its hard to get people to understand what its actually like when your competing against flashy ads and the "dream" everyone believes exist.

I understand what your saying 3enginejock and agree with what your saying also. Its an individual choice to make those large moves. But, its a sad statement on an industry when you have to leave your home and move half a world away just to keep doing the job you love...

[mikecweb]

Originally Posted by 3enginejock

I know a lot of career pilots and Ive watched them get furloughed and then start over. This has been the way aviation has been for a long time its not just the current market.

I didn't see zap or anyone else dispute this. What they are trying to get across is taking a $40,000+ pay cut may seem easy now but wait until your income, family, house, car, and everything else depend on the $40k+. The problem with aviation is you aren't truly rewarded for your experience. Every time you move on to something "better" regional -> national-> major you have to initially take a pay cut. Also if you get furloughed your experience means nothing. If no major is hiring you have to go back to a $20k regional job. Not because you are "too stupid" but because there is nothing else out there. We should settled for "there are plenty of jobs abroad". This my country, our country, we should provide for our citizens not short them so much that they need to leave. I think nothing speaks to the short comings of our once great nation then people being forced to the likes of the UAE or India or China to make a decent living. Sad times.

Or you could just fly freight where every day is ice cream and cotton candy.

[ZapBrannigan]

Originally Posted by 3enginejock

If you absolutly must stay in the US then your gonna have to lump it and start over like everyone else when you get layed off and make 50-60k a year.

Buddy, i've been laid off 3 times in 10 years. If you think it's that easy to find a $50,000/yr flying job while wearing the scarlet "F" from a major, you're living in a dream world.

You're not only wrong. You're delusional.

[FlyChicaga]

There are two things that destroy "the dream" for most of us. They are things that those in other career fields don't exactly have to worry about: Seniority and regional airline expansion.

This career would be outstanding if you knew that a furough wasn't a death sentence in annual income. If we could somehow bring regional payscales to an acceptable level, things might not be so bad. I'd imagine I could go from $120,000 a year income to $50-60,000 a year, if the prospect was there to increase to $80,000 after a year or two. But going from that $120,000 a year to $20,000 a year, only to expect $40,000 a year and poor work rules after 5 years is insulting to us as professionals.

I'm hanging on, because I'm optimistic.

[3enginejock]

Originally Posted by ZapBrannigan

Buddy, i've been laid off 3 times in 10 years. If you think it's that easy to find a $50,000/yr flying job while wearing the scarlet "F" from a major, you're living in a dream world.

You're not only wrong. You're delusional.

Who said anything about it being easy? good things in life are never easy

[NotCoolEnufToFly]

I agree with Zap. You can't always have everything, sometimes you have to decide what's more important. To him it's family. Maybe there are some people who can keep their family happy and fed and still have all their dreams and if so great for them. But I think it's really shallow and conceited of people to judge them, especially when they've never faced having to make a decision like that. Maybe it's easy for a young single guy to just skip a couple meals and wear their old clothes until they are worn out, but I hope you never wanna have children or marry a wealthy woman because you try explaining to a crying, hungry baby that sacrifices have to be made for daddy to live his dream... What if your dream is family as well as aviation and you are faced with not being able to have both? Which do you sacrifice for the other?

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by 3enginejock

Who said anything about it being easy? good things in life are never easy

Said the 250 hour guy to the pilot who was laid off three times, who slept in his car while time-building, and who has personally lived the ups and downs of the industry for years.

[NotCoolEnufToFly]

And in my opinion Zap has been successful in aviation. Maybe he's not doing exactly what he thought he would be or wanted to be doing but he's made it through several furloughs and still flies for a living today. If that's not perserverence then some of you don't just have dreams, you can't seperate dreams from reality.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by NotCoolEnufToFly

What if your dream is family as well as aviation and you are faced with not being able to have both? Which do you sacrifice for the other?

Aviation, without a doubt.

[TangoBravo]

See - not everyone is in the same boat:

I agree with Zap. You can't always have everything, sometimes you have to decide what's more important. To him it's family. Maybe there are some people who can keep their family happy and fed and still have all their dreams and if so great for them. But I think it's really shallow and conceited of people to judge them, especially when they've never faced having to make a decision like that. Maybe it's easy for a young single guy to just skip a couple meals and wear their old clothes until they are worn out, but I hope you never wanna have children or marry a wealthy woman because you try explaining to a crying, hungry baby that sacrifices have to be made for daddy to live his dream... What if your dream is family as well as aviation and you are faced with not being able to have both? Which do you sacrifice for the other?

I never played with stuff I could not afford to play with. Its the peoples fault if they engage in relationships that force them to give up their dreams. I's also their fault if they value a "career" that can be ended by a simple doctors visit higher than people and family. No matter what you comply with - there is simply almost never a way not to regret it later. I have made sacrifices in my live before joining the Commercial Pilot ranks - outside of Aviation, but, hell, thats why the house is paid off and the cars don't stink. Whatever you do takes sacrifices - some things, like our current aviation market seem to demand a bit more.

I think 3enginejock is not aware that he is incredibly lucky to be where he is, at the current stage of the game. I do not know his age, nor his real life experience with having relationships nor am I out to judge anyone.
All I am saying is that discouraging people in this industry will work only with the worst characters. He is full of excitement, and even though many of us may not understand why a 250 hour kiddo has a chance and we are looking at 4000+ hour people out of a job I am happy for him. I can yet understand him for feeling attacked by being presented like a bum, for "living his dream".

I take the old skool people in here very serious, and I do value their advise and insight - but... and there is always a but... there is just no way you can convince someone that has chosen this "profession" as his, that his or her efforts are senseless. This industry is probably one of the most disrespectful, ungrateful and insulting ones I have ever seen - yet, if I take off and make my money with flying... I mean - why do you fly? If I told a brain doctor that I was reducing his fee for doing brainsurgery from $80.000 a day to $1000.00 a day (even though he has healed and saved multiple patients), would he remain in this profession? Would he go out and accept employment as an anesthesist? I think from the day you told him that he was being exchanged for a cheaper doctor, he would artfully create drooling and lalling patients. If I knew I was hired on a CL601 for less than 10% of what I should make, would I still remember how to fly?

If people are in this for the money, or the prestige of being a pilot, I would encourage them to open their eyes, cleaning personell makes more money in my town than a 1'st year FO at MESA. No - they don't make $41/ hour, but their take home paycheck is bigger, and they are home.

Look - I believe that this trend of Chinese wage pilot employment (they have surpassed us with this too!) could be reverted by establishing a national association that shuns people and operators selling out for cheap money. I never hear much in the press about pilot wages - and such an organization could yield tremendous awareness on the side of the customer that is yet still believing that pilots make good money while coming in late for work. If some of the training contracts and employment contracts where PUBLIC knowledge people would finally have a chance to tell the airlines and operators that they are downright scared.

If you want to change the market and the industry, you will have to move closer to your fellow pilot and talk frankly. You will have to actively seek out operators like Air Tahoma (claimed to be unsafe) or 3enginejocks, or any others, and if you have something to say for their safety record or employment practices- for the sake of the lord, go SAY IT. You will have to actively position yourself against "academy style pilot slavery".
Don't say it here, where less of 1% of the population looks - say it on your local TV station, say it in the newspaper, go seek PUBLICITY! Do whatever it takes to get your fellow aviator on your side - and stand up and fight. We are such a small community of people. I don't wonder why we cant just skip work for one darn day. Would the airlines fire everyone and close up? Or is the fact that this spiral never ends only cause by the fact that we are allowing more and more scumbags into our business? When are we taking pride in what we do again? Where does it stop?

Whatever you do - if you don't stand up to it - don't expect anything to change. Rant mode: OFF

[NotCoolEnufToFly]

I'm happy for him too. I HOPE everything works out for him. Oliver fits into the "250 hour kid" catergory himself (although not really a kid). I HOPE everything works for him too and he finds a good job and loves flying for a livingand then is able to come home to a loving family knowing all the bills are paid and the baby fed. That's the reality of my life too. I'm just saying it's easy for people to be hard on those who have set the dream aside or altered the dream so that it is a nice compromise that allows them to see other dreams come true too, when they have yet to be faced with these decisions. Is it being negative and trying to kill their dreams, no, I don't think so. It's educating them so they aren't surprised, shocked and/or disappointed with what they find when they get there. Oliver and I were super excited when we found out we were pregnant. I dreamed of what we would have, a girl or boy? What it would be like to hold our baby for the first time...all of the wonderful things that parenthood brings. But I also educated myself on the different tests I would need during my pregnancy, the proper diet to have while I'm pregnant and the typcial discomforts of pregnancy vs. those that could signal trouble. Now the same with aviation. I could have ignored that but I think being educated on it has made my pregnancy more enjoyable actually because I don't worry when my stomach is cramping because I've read up on it and consulted my ob and I know what the cause is. If I only knew all the good things I may have been disappointed by how uncomfortable and sometimes not enjoyable pregnancy can be. To me, it's exactly the same with aviation. These guys aren't trying to discourage. People come here wanting to know and they just tell the truth. I have people call the flight school all the time asking questions about how much pilots make and what the lifestyle is like. I tell most of them to research. It's important to know before going in how hard it can be so that you can prepare emotionally and financially.