Advice For a 27 Year Old Career Changer

[atp_chris]

Ok I’m new to this forum and Aviation in general. I am real close to taking out a loan for 55-70k to for flight training and am in need a quick reality check. I want to make sure I am not doing the wrong thing. I’ve visited flight schools taken discovery flights etc. I’ve heard all of the BS from flight schools trying to sell me on their programs and I would like some advice from some real life pilots.



About me:
I’m 27 years old and have worked in accounting and management for the past 4 years. I hate working behind a desk all day and have seriously thinking about becoming a commercial pilot for the past year. I have an understanding girlfriend, no children or plans for any, no house or any major debts. I also have a bachelors’ degree in Biology.



My questions:


1.Am I getting into aviation for the wrong reasons? I’m not one of those “Born to fly guys” this has been a recent dream of mine. I find the flying interesting (I play flight sim X..haha); however, I am more drawn to the lifestyle. I have always had a hard time settling down in one place. I love to travel, being in airports, staying in hotels etc. – even just to other domestic cities. I have always enjoyed being up in the air as passenger on flights and think it would be amazing to spend my days at 30,000 ft. I find the navigation side of it flying particularly interesting I have always been good with computers etc and interested in maps.



2.I will most likely be 28 when I finish my flight training and close to 30 before I start as a FO with a regional (I understand making 20k per year). What are my chances of making it to a major airline in my lifetime? Do most dedicated pilots have a good shot at getting there or is it like becoming a pro sports star or something. I’d like some numbers (like 1 out or 10).



3.When you work for a regional how do the jump seats work? Do you just get to fly on the airline you work for or do they have an agreement with other airlines as well? Do you get any free or discount tickets to fly internationally working for a regional?


4.What percentage of people fail out of flight programs like ATP etc? How about the percentage that washes out of the Airlines training programs?

5.My Blood pressure is borderline high (it runs in my family). Although I don’t now, I will most likely need medication at some point in my life to get my 1st class– is this going to be a major issue for me?



This would be a much easier decision but I have another opportunity at the moment to advance in my current employment, run a small business get a free MBA, and probably do quite well financially but I feel that I would be bored and not get the adventure that I am seeking out of life. I am getting older and know I need to make the decision soon. If there are any regional or major pilots out there who can give me some advice would be awesome!

[atp_chris]

Ok I’m new to this forum and Aviation in general. I am real close to taking out a loan for 55-70k to for flight training and am in need a quick reality check. I want to make sure I am not doing the wrong thing. I’ve visited flight schools taken discovery flights etc. I’ve heard all of the BS from flight schools trying to sell me on their programs and I would like some advice from some real life pilots.



About me:
I’m 27 years old and have worked in accounting and management for the past 4 years. I hate working behind a desk all day and have seriously thinking about becoming a commercial pilot for the past year. I have an understanding girlfriend, no children or plans for any, no house or any major debts. I also have a bachelors’ degree in Biology.



My questions:


1.Am I getting into aviation for the wrong reasons? I’m not one of those “Born to fly guys” this has been a recent dream of mine. I find the flying interesting (I play flight sim X..haha); however, I am more drawn to the lifestyle. I have always had a hard time settling down in one place. I love to travel, being in airports, staying in hotels etc. – even just to other domestic cities. I have always enjoyed being up in the air as passenger on flights and think it would be amazing to spend my days at 30,000 ft. I find the navigation side of it flying particularly interesting I have always been good with computers etc and interested in maps.



2.I will most likely be 28 when I finish my flight training and close to 30 before I start as a FO with a regional (I understand making 20k per year). What are my chances of making it to a major airline in my lifetime? Do most dedicated pilots have a good shot at getting there or is it like becoming a pro sports star or something. I’d like some numbers (like 1 out or 10).



3.When you work for a regional how do the jump seats work? Do you just get to fly on the airline you work for or do they have an agreement with other airlines as well? Do you get any free or discount tickets to fly internationally working for a regional?


4.What percentage of people fail out of flight programs like ATP etc? How about the percentage that washes out of the Airlines training programs?

5.My Blood pressure is borderline high (it runs in my family). Although I don’t now, I will most likely need medication at some point in my life to get my 1st class– is this going to be a major issue for me?



This would be a much easier decision but I have another opportunity at the moment to advance in my current employment, run a small business get a free MBA, and probably do quite well financially but I feel that I would be bored and not get the adventure that I am seeking out of life. I am getting older and know I need to make the decision soon. If there are any regional or major pilots out there who can give me some advice would be awesome!

[Clocks]

Originally Posted by atp_chris

Ok I’m new to this forum and Aviation in general. I am real close to taking out a loan for 55-70k to for flight training and am in need a quick reality check. I want to make sure I am not doing the wrong thing. I’ve visited flight schools taken discovery flights etc. I’ve heard all of the BS from flight schools trying to sell me on their programs and I would like some advice from some real life pilots.

If you have a decent paying job now save up the money and get your private pilot certificate before you take a loan out for anything.

About me:
I’m 27 years old and have worked in accounting and management for the past 4 years. I hate working behind a desk all day and have seriously thinking about becoming a commercial pilot for the past year. I have an understanding girlfriend, no children or plans for any, no house or any major debts. I also have a bachelors’ degree in Biology.

30 is not that old. You would have been the 4th oldest person in my class of 16.

1.Am I getting into aviation for the wrong reasons? I’m not one of those “Born to fly guys” this has been a recent dream of mine. I find the flying interesting (I play flight sim X..haha); however, I am more drawn to the lifestyle. I have always had a hard time settling down in one place. I love to travel, being in airports, staying in hotels etc. – even just to other domestic cities. I have always enjoyed being up in the air as passenger on flights and think it would be amazing to spend my days at 30,000 ft. I find the navigation side of it flying particularly interesting I have always been good with computers etc and interested in maps.

I was never a "born to fly", "$100 hamburger", "just go fly for fun and sightsee" type either, but it can still be a great job (I'm not going to pretend to say "you'll love it forever!" because I don't know, and I've only been a regional FO for 6 months).

But I can tell you traveling for work is a little different than "loving to travel". On the long overnights you can have some fun, the first time was in washington DC was with my current job, and I spent the whole day walking around the national mall. But other places are less fun, or you get in at 10pm with a 9am show the next morning which sort of limits your "touristy" options.

However I will say that flying over the great lakes out of canada this morning was a pretty beautiful scene at 6:45am and right now in my position (single, mid 20s, nothing tying me to any part of the country) I wouldn't give this up to go back to my last job sitting in an office.

2.I will most likely be 28 when I finish my flight training and close to 30 before I start as a FO with a regional (I understand making 20k per year). What are my chances of making it to a major airline in my lifetime? Do most dedicated pilots have a good shot at getting there or is it like becoming a pro sports star or something. I’d like some numbers (like 1 out or 10).

Wild guess, 7-10 years at a regional to get to a major. Your mileage may vary greatly. As long as you dont lose your medical, or do something retarded which will hurt your application like get a DUI.

3.When you work for a regional how do the jump seats work? Do you just get to fly on the airline you work for or do they have an agreement with other airlines as well? Do you get any free or discount tickets to fly internationally working for a regional?

I've jumpseated once to get home from IOE before I moved to my base, but as far as I know most regionals have reciprocal jumpseat agreements with most other airlines. You either call a special phone number or just walk up to the gate and fill out a slip of paper.

4.What percentage of people fail out of flight programs like ATP etc? How about the percentage that washes out of the Airlines training programs?

ATP had a pretty low drop out/failure rate when I taught there. Really get your private pilot certificate first, it's fun and you can make flying a hobby and save $50k if you decide it's not the career for you before you commit the big bucks. Training for the rest of it will be a lot like that (which is also a lot like college). If you can study effectively that's 90% of it. Moving the stick and rudder is pretty damn easy compared to the knowledge that's required.

5.My Blood pressure is borderline high (it runs in my family). Although I don’t now, I will most likely need medication at some point in my life to get my 1st class– is this going to be a major issue for me?

No idea.

This would be a much easier decision but I have another opportunity at the moment to advance in my current employment, run a small business get a free MBA, and probably do quite well financially but I feel that I would be bored and not get the adventure that I am seeking out of life. I am getting older and know I need to make the decision soon. If there are any regional or major pilots out there who can give me some advice would be awesome!

27 is not old, 30 would not be old to get hired. It's easy for me to say "pay off your existing debt and eat hotdogs and raman noodles for a few years at your current job to save $50k for your flight training, then pay for your flight training with cash and become a $20k/year FO with no debt", but really you should do that. I squandered the income from my college job (which was twice what I make now), and am now enjoying $20k/year + college debt + getting furloughed later this year which means I'll be pimping first year pay again next year if I get hired at another regional. Seriously, do it debt free. 30 is not old to get hired. Hell even getting hired at 35 (which would still not have made you the oldest person in my new hire class) would give you plenty of time to do flight training debt free AND save up a nice chunk of change to live off of while you're making $20k and still gives you 30 years as an airline pilot, 20+ of that at a major.

[atp_chris]

Clocks,

Thanks for the advice. I hear what you are saying, Unfortunately I'm in a position where I need to either make a commitment and dive headlong into my current career or get out now. (i.e. need to S%#@ or get off the pot). Did you actually go to ATP or just instruct there? What do you think of the quality of the training you receive there? One flight schools I talked to said that a lot of ATP guys wash out of the Airline Training because they only learn how to pass check rides. Any truth to this? Is there any chance to work a second job during your 1st year at a regional? Waiting tables or Bartending? Thanks for the help its good to talk to someone who is actually working in the industry instead of these Flight School Sales people!

[VF-213]

I generally encourage aviation to anyone that has an interest.
I can't address many of your points as I have a different background (military route) however a couple of overlooked points to consider.

You may never get an opportunity to fly for a mainline carrier (numbers issue) and you have to ask yourself if you'd be ok with it - unfortunately you can't really answer till you've done to job with a regional for a few years.

Lifestyle doesn't equal quality of life. Its good to hear you don't mind spending a lot of time in hotels and in different cities but often it takes a lot of years till you aren't working every holiday etc. I'm on the 757 and in my forties but despite my fortune I can't help but feel I am missing out on too many family gatherings etc.

Whatever you choose, best of luck

[Clocks]

Don't take my word as gospel, I'm pretty damn new. Hopefully others will chime in too.

I did all my training at the university where I got my bachelors except for 2 addons to my flight instructor certificate which I did at ATP, then I instructed there.

Of the 8 people I know personally from my location who got hired at a regional who did some or all of their training at ATP one failed out of their airline training.

Will they teach you to pass the checkrides? Of course, every CFI will teach you enough so you can pass the checkrides, that's their job (the FAA even outlines everything you're responsible to know at every checkride called the PTS or practical test standards)! Will they teach you only the bare minimum to pass? There are some bad apples at ATP that will do that, and there are some bad apples at other flight schools too. But even the best CFIs I ever had didn't teach me everything. I like to think of each certificate or rating as a college class, the instructor is there to cover the topics and guide your learning, not to read verbatim from the book so every single topic is covered to the minute detail. You should learn a lot from your instructor, learn a lot from your own studies, and become a decent pilot because of the influence of both. A failure on the CFI's part can make it harder (just like a poor college professor can), but no matter what you are still at least half the equation and anyone who finishes training having only learned "how to pass the checkride" failed themselves as much as the CFI did (unless the CFI is just grossly incompetent and negligent). /end personal responsibility rant

If there was a reasonable way for me to work a second job I probably would (I even thought of groundskeeping at a golf course, or anything to get me outside). But here is how you'll have to explain it to your 2nd employer if you want to be honest with them:

"I'd like to work here part time, but I am only free 12 days a month (11 days when the month has 30 days, or less depending on your contract). I'll find out which days I am free a few days before the new month starts, and my days off will change every month and usually every week. My airline job can also make me keep working into my previously scheduled days off, and I'll get no warning about that so sometimes I'll have to call off with little or no notice. I'll probably be working weekends and holidays at my airline job too since I'll be too junior to get those off with any regularity."

That also assumes you live in base. Commuting to your pilot job can be a whole different ball game since sometimes you'll have to fly in the night before or fly home the day after, reducing your effective days off even more. If your second job can handle that, then yes you can work a second job.

Also please don't talk to the people at ATP about the industry or the "best way to go". I sat on those phones at ATP for a few weeks waiting for an instructor spot to open up like many others as a brand new never-taught-a-student CFI and didn't know jack about just about anything. I don't even know if the 3 "head phone people" (I cant remember their titles, James was one of them) are even pilots or ever worked in the industry. If you want to know about their programs then talk to them, but don't try ever think you are getting real career advice from them.

[joliet]

Quick everyone give him some good information before this thread gets locked.


All I would say is don't burn any bridges in the industry you work now, because you may hate flying as an airline pilot after the *FUN* wears off. I still love it though, but I haven't been furloughed yet.

[atp_chris]

Thanks for the info everyone. Ok now for the big question. How do you 1st year regional guys live off of $20,000 with no second job? Esp the ones that took out a loan for flight training? Seriously, I want to know what I am in store for. Do you live out of your cars in the airport parking, at your parents or share a place with like 20 other people? Also if you get furloughed after you have made Captain at a regional and take a job at another regional do you typically start as 1st yr Captain or back to 1st year FO?

[pilotty]

Hey ATP Chris,


1. I think it sounds like you have evaluated it pretty thoroughly and that you have done your research on where to train. It even sounds like you would fit the lifestyle pretty well since you know what to expect. Financially you are in a good position and even if it does not work out, you have a good solid career to fall back on.

2. Your chances of making it to a major are very good, how soon you are a four striper is the question. There are lots of good paying flying opportunities out there in the 135 arena as well and you might like that even better. I worked for a fractional jet ownership company as a dispatcher before recently being hired by a regional and it was a blast...things change constantly and the pilots flew to hundreds of different airports on a moments notice.

3. The jumpseat thing is new to me and I haven't used it yet, but most airlines are CASS affiliated so you can catch a ride with most any airline provided you dress and act accordingly.

4. I am not sure if all that many fail out...most just figure out at some point in their training that it is not for them and they quit. I went to Pan Am and most all of us finished that started with each other. I got hired to fly a Dash 8, two of my other classmates are flying emb-145's, 2 others are chief CFI's at academies other than Pan Am, and the list goes on...you can get a job that will work for you in whatever type of flying you like.

5. As long as you can maintain your blood pressure with meds for the first class you should be fine.

But if you are going to go for it - do it now. Even if it is at your local FBO, start taking lessons part time and work toward your private...the lessons will help you get a better gauge on things before you sign that piece of paper for 75 G's...I signed the paper at 29...got a job recently and am just about to turn 33...It has not been easy at all...sometimes I wish I was back in the comfort zone that I had before I started.... but what fun would that be?

Good Luck!

[atp_chris]

Pilotty,

Thanks for the info. Can you tell me about what its like surviving on 1st year regional FO salary esp if you have a loan that size? Seriously, what do most people do move back in with their parents? Live out of their cars for a year or two?

ATP Chris

[pilotty]

Well...it can be managed if you don't have many other debts...there are gradual repayment plans...thats what I have set up. The payment is smaller at the beginning of repayment

[Zondaracer]

You're only 27? If you make it to a regional by 30 I think you have a highly realistic shot at making a major if you really want to. I know guys who didnt even start a flying career until they retired from a 20 year military or law enforcement NONaviation career. With age 65 retirement you could realistically have a 35 year flying career, you haven't even lived that long hehe. And hey, if the flying thing doesnt work out, there's always multiple paths you could take within the flying career field, not to mention you have a backup in case flying doesn't suit you period.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by atp_chris

Ok I’m new to this forum and Aviation in general. I am real close to taking out a loan for 55-70k to for flight training and am in need a quick reality check. I want to make sure I am not doing the wrong thing. I’ve visited flight schools taken discovery flights etc. I’ve heard all of the BS from flight schools trying to sell me on their programs and I would like some advice from some real life pilots.



About me:
I’m 27 years old and have worked in accounting and management for the past 4 years. I hate working behind a desk all day and have seriously thinking about becoming a commercial pilot for the past year. I have an understanding girlfriend, no children or plans for any, no house or any major debts. I also have a bachelors’ degree in Biology.



My questions:


1.Am I getting into aviation for the wrong reasons? I’m not one of those “Born to fly guys” this has been a recent dream of mine. I find the flying interesting (I play flight sim X..haha); however, I am more drawn to the lifestyle. I have always had a hard time settling down in one place. I love to travel, being in airports, staying in hotels etc. – even just to other domestic cities. I have always enjoyed being up in the air as passenger on flights and think it would be amazing to spend my days at 30,000 ft. I find the navigation side of it flying particularly interesting I have always been good with computers etc and interested in maps.



2.I will most likely be 28 when I finish my flight training and close to 30 before I start as a FO with a regional (I understand making 20k per year). What are my chances of making it to a major airline in my lifetime? Do most dedicated pilots have a good shot at getting there or is it like becoming a pro sports star or something. I’d like some numbers (like 1 out or 10).



3.When you work for a regional how do the jump seats work? Do you just get to fly on the airline you work for or do they have an agreement with other airlines as well? Do you get any free or discount tickets to fly internationally working for a regional?


4.What percentage of people fail out of flight programs like ATP etc? How about the percentage that washes out of the Airlines training programs?

5.My Blood pressure is borderline high (it runs in my family). Although I don’t now, I will most likely need medication at some point in my life to get my 1st class– is this going to be a major issue for me?



This would be a much easier decision but I have another opportunity at the moment to advance in my current employment, run a small business get a free MBA, and probably do quite well financially but I feel that I would be bored and not get the adventure that I am seeking out of life. I am getting older and know I need to make the decision soon. If there are any regional or major pilots out there who can give me some advice would be awesome!

Welcome to JC! Excellent questions, by the way.

First about the BP issue. Ask the doc in the flight surgeon forum. Straight poop from a guy in the know.

Next - you're in management now and you are bored, and are wanting the adventure of traveling and working in the flight levels, right? Honestly - some people really love it, and others consider the flight deck just another office, albeit with a better view. I'm not sure how adventurous being a pilot is though. Some might consider it to be. You might miss some of the decision making and diverse experiences you had in management. Running your own business has numerous challenges on many levels aviation simply can't compete with.

Run a "regret-o-meter" on that free MBA deal and see if you can live with the decision of not pursuing it, even if aviation doesn't turn out to be as cool as you hoped. If you'd be okay with it - you might have found your answer.

Failing out of a flight school - if you have marginal intelligence, basic motor skills, drive and motivation, you won't fail. Same with airline training. If you are an average guy who can study, you'll make it just fine.

If you read around the forums, you'll read plenty about how flying simply becomes a job, like many others. A passion for the work is needed, certainly. For you though, I'd be a bit worried about someone coming from an environment where they were a decision-maker going into a position where they are labor. It might be immensely fulfilling, or you might miss the complexity of your old life and being the boss. Only you can know.

Good luck, man! I know deciding on a career change is tough. You did the right thing by coming here.

[subpilot]

If you are making good money, in line for a promotion, and can earn a free MBA then that may be the ticket. You can get all the joys of flying out of general aviation. You are actually more in touch with the world of aviation as a whole in the general aviation arena. Once you hit the airlines, your aviation experience becomes routine and predictable. You worry more about your contract and bid lines than about the finer aspects of aviation.

Don't get me wrong, the airlines are a great lifestyle for the right person and the pay is there in the future but it really is a rough road financially for the first 5 years or so and you are at the mercy of the economy, oil prices, regional contract underbidding, etc. I did this career change when I was 28 and I had a wife and kids. I was hired by a regional 3 months before my 30th birthday. It has been tough for us. every month the question was not if, but how much we were going to put onto the credit card just to pay for basic living expenses. After a year or two of earning less than you spend and watching your debt rack up it gets hard to keep living the dream.

I also left a good career, good salary, a house, nice car, etc to do this. I personally am happy with my decision and know that I have to lay in the bed I made. My family has been very supportive, but everyone we know thinks we are crazy for giving up what I had and living off what I make now. People still don't believe me when I tell them how little I make and how much I spent in training cost to get this job. We even had a state assistance officer hang up the phone on us when we were calling for daycare assistance because she did not believe I was telling the truth with my salary and the fact that I only worked 70-80 hrs a month but it was still full time employment.

Currently, I am serving in Afghanistan for the year and I must say this tour of duty is saving our behind. We have been able to start paying off our debt. When I return next year to the USA I would love nothing more than to go back to my airline job but we financially just can't afford it. We are looking at going back to active duty military service for perhaps another 3-4 years to get all the debt we racked up over the 3 years paid off and plus, I hate to say this but we can't afford to live on FO wages and this is a way to bypass the low paying FO years and then I can reappear at the airline in time to upgrade. I don't want to do this but I feel like I have to do this just to survive financially.

Sorry for the long rant, I guess I needed to get this off my chest and your post kind of brought these thoughts out into the open. Perhaps my experience will give you some insight into what you may experience yourself if you go down this path. Each man shall make his own path through life. Good luck in whatever path you choose to walk down.

[aerospacepilot]

My first question for you is why $55-$70k? You can get all your licenses and ratings necessary to become an airline pilot (private through MEI) for about $40,000 from your local FBO. $70,000 is only for very expensive pilot academies like ATP (basically expensive brand flight training, not necessarily better). To find a local FBO that offers flight training, go to www.airnav.com , click on airports, and type in the three letter identifier of the closest airport, or just type in the name of the closest town that you know has a small airport. Scroll down to a section labeled Aviation Businesses and either check out their website or make a few phone calls. There is also a section just below that says nearby airports with an instrument approach. That should give you a good idea of the close by airports that you should research too.

My next major piece of advice is to not take out a loan for flight training. This is probably the worst move you can make. Aviation is very cyclical and things change all the time. Just because you got hired at an airline does not guarantee you will have a job in a year or two, so you have to be flexible. A loan on the order of magnitude you mentioned will cost you $91,000 to $116,000 over the course of the loan due to interest. The monthly payment will be $700-$1000 a month ($8,400 to $12,000 a year). How are you going to pay that off making no income while at flight school, and making about $20k as a flight instructor for one year and as a regional FO making hardly anything?

Check out this thread I recently wrote about taking out a loan for flight training.
http://forums.jetcareers.com/general...tml#post874831

In that thread, I give advice to a guy who is in the same situation as you. My advice is to continue working at your current job and SAVE your money for a private pilots license (about $8,000). When you have that money saved up, go out and get your license. You clearly have a passion for aviation and a private license is one of the best things I have done in my life.

After you get this license, decide for yourself. Do you really want to become a career pilot, or do you want to enjoy flying general aviation. If you decide you definately want to fly for a living, then sit back and work hard, save up your $40,000, and then start flight training and do it.



As for your other question,

I think you have a much better shot at making it to a major airline if your life than most people tell you on here. I am a numbers guy, but there are more major airline jobs than regional airline jobs, thus the odds are there. The thing is your chances of making it to a major airline are much less today than they were 5, 10, 20 years ago, and will continue to decrease in the future.

For flight training, DO NOT GO TO ATP!!! It is not a bad school, but why would you spend $70,000 (which costs you $116,000 with interest) to go to a school that is much more expensive than everywhere else. There is no need to go to these expensive pilot academies. They are no better than training at your local airport. Especially if you are taking out a loan (which is a terrible idea). Go to your local FBO that offers flight training and you can get all your licenses and ratings for $40,000.

Finally, I do not know the answer to your medical question. There is a "Ask a Flight Surgeon" board on here that I would recommend you post your question on. The best advice I can offer you is to get your first class medical BEFORE you start any flight training. It only costs $25 more than a third class medical that is required for general aviation flying. The last thing you want to do is go out and drop tons and tons of money and then realize you cannot get a first class medical (and thus can't fly for an airline for a living). So get your first class medical BEFORE you do any flight training.


It is good that you are doing your research before spending $70,000. I'd recommend reading/posting around here for a few months before you make your final decision. Doing your research before hand is the best way to increase your chances of success in this career.
Good luck. Let us know what you decide. Feel free to ask us any more questions.

[Kristie]

I merged both of your threads together... it's a forum faux pax to have 2 of the same thread in more than one forum.

[Gulfstream IV]

my only advice is to remain in your current position until you have your private pilot's license. then a decision to jump in head first will be easier because you have evidence to back up your questions with about flying full time and taking the $40K loan to pay for flying. good luck!

[atp_chris]

Thanks for the great info everyone. Sorry about the double post Kristie and thanks for fixing. I posted in one Category then realized I should have posted under Career Changers. Won't happen again.

[3green]

As a new ERJ pilot I can say the hardest part of being an FO isn't the flying(although that has its moments). It has to be sitting there in a hotel by yourself or waiting for the shuttle in the wee morning hours wondering if its all worth it. If you can keep perspective that there is some hope that you will move on to bigger and better things(if you make the right moves) then it seems okay. If you aren't the type of person who can see the positives in the most pesimistic situations it will be a rough ride.

In my short time as a new FO/career changer I've seen people quit during training, resign during IOE and heard captains saying they were going to have a new FO on IOE fired. It isn't the flying that gets to you, its the low pay, time away from home/family/friends, and odd hours that kill. What can I say, I'm "Liv'n the dream!"<sarcasm>

Go to an FBO and train on the side. Make sure this is what you want to do for a living and have a backup plan/job. Good luck with whatever any career-changers decide to do. At least you can't say "what if?" when your 90 and on your death bed if you take the leap.

[subpilot]

Thing is, you don't fully realize the lifesytle nor can you honestly ask yourself "is this the lifestyle for me?" until you actually step into the commercial flying world. Going to the local FBO and taking lessons only tells you if flying is in your blood and if you have the aptitude for handling an airplane in the US airspace system. The flight school does not make you show at 6am for a 4 day trip, working 14 hr days with only 8 hours rest before the next 13 hr day. You just have to know yourself and whether that type of lifestyle appeals to you. Being young and single helps a lot. Being older and/or married with kids makes it a little harder to pull off.
Again, I had a line the last two months I flew that had a 6am show and off by 12:30pm. I flew that line M-Th and M-W alternately every other week. F-Su off every week. I wanted to point that out to get away from all the doom and gloom. The airlines has it's good schedules too.

[atp_chris]

Subpilot

Thanks for bringing that up. Thats what I was thinking about and I know that is the part I cannot know until I do it. See for me the lifestyle is the majority of what draws me to the job. I guess I need to find out if I like the flying too..haha Not really looking forward to the low paying years but traveling and seeing new places when earning decent money later on. I'm not really interested in kids and my girlfriend and I are pretty independant and do ok with time apart. I have always hated seeing the same scenery every day and my biggest fear in life is the little middle class house picket fence and dog humdrum routine life..haha I guess my biggest concern is getting stuck as a regional FO for years and years. I wont be hartbroken if I never get to the mega salarys but would be pretty upset if I was doing this for 5-10 years and still not seeing $60,000 - $70,000 or so and still struggleing to pay back the loans.

[turand]

I can't really comment from experience on this, I am 32 and just considering getting my PPL with no intention of ever being a commercial airline pilot. So this is just a general observation. atp_chris, it seems your major dilemma is that you have a current career opportunity and you are perceiving this to be an absolute point to make a decision about the career for the rest of your life.

So, lemme point a few things out
- It may seem like you have to drop your career now and go into debt for ATP, but be honest with yourself here, you would be paying for your impatience! All accelerated schools are for the impatient willing to cart the opportunity cost around for the next 20 years, unless they truly have the $70k cash to spend.
- Your 27, not 47! Aviation will always be there. I have read countless forum posts of career changers in their 30s-40s, and they do get hired. There is no rush.
- Watch your BP, I am no doctor, but an airline pilot's livelihood depends on their ability to hold a 1st class med, live a healthy lifestyle and see your doctor, stay on top of this!

You have the dream, you have the means, and you have the time. The question is.... do you have the patience to gradually get into this field without killing your financial future?

You just got offered a promotion, work the job, take the extra money and earn your PPL and ratings at an FBO. Flying 2-3 times a week and you'll have your MEI in less than 2 years for 1/2 the cost and probably pay cash. You'll be working as an FO at a regional by the time you are 30, virtually an infant for the working life of a pilot. You will be living the dream in no time with no debt (or a fraction of debt compared to ATP). Plus if you decide after 6 months its not for you, or life has thrown you a curveball, you can adjust without a $70k bill weighing you down.

Good luck!

[calcapt]

Don't do it. Reading Your posts carefully, your expectations and "vision" of the lifestyle will let you down. For many, this career requires more of a sacrifice than any job should. You seem like a reasonable person to me - do something that will not take everything you have, and then ask for more.

[Tld]

Originally Posted by 3green

Go to an FBO and train on the side. Make sure this is what you want to do for a living and have a backup plan/job.

Exactly. With any career change, better be sure. You found a good place here on jetcareers, heed the advice. It's definately good that you are doing your research. Although it may seem like flying is a 'good fit' for you, make sure it's what you want to do. Make sure you love it.

[BillErvin]

Originally Posted by atp_chris

Subpilot

but traveling and seeing new places when earning decent money later on. I'm not really interested in kids and my girlfriend and I are pretty independant and do ok with time apart. I have always hated seeing the same scenery every day and my biggest fear in life is the little middle class house picket fence and dog humdrum routine life..

Let me do a reality check here

I think your seeing the same thing that most folks who don't fly see in the pilot mystique.

Let me correct a few misconceptions of "Living the Dream" from the point of view of someone on the sidelines. By sidelines I mean I've been in and around aviation all my life. I'm an Instrument rated commercial pilot but have never been an airline pilot, but, I just retired from the Federal Air Marshal program and a 28 year Federal Law Enforcement Career. Since 9/11 I've been flying in the back watching the crews do their thing, I've met pilots who still absolutely love their job and others that are absolutely miserable and are there because they can't find a job that pays more with the same days off.

First of all, the office up front has the best view of any office, no doubt about it

Most of the time, you'll fly around in that office for 10-14 hours a day (Duty Day) granted some of that time is sitting in a terminal waiting for your next flight or running to your next flight. For the first few years you'll spend a lot of time sitting at home or in a crash pad on reserve waiting for a phone call.

When you have layovers they will be in hotels picked by your company (probably not the Hilton). Layovers are usually short (10 hours or so) There are times when you'll have long layovers, but they are far and few between and most of the time they don't fall into tourist hours.

Crews with the best schedules get them because they've got the seniority numbers to get them.

I guess what I'm trying to stress is that Its looks like lots of adventure and fun, and it can be But go into it with you eyes open, it ain't all fun in the sun on the Mexican Rivera and flying your shiny jet through the friendly skies. (Unless your Doug)

The best piece of advice I've seen on this thread is don't take out a loan to get your training, save your cash and pay for it. You have a lot of time to get there and when you do you'll be able to eat more than just ramon noodles in that fine hotel room your company picked out for you. And Remember there are flying jobs outside of the airlines.

That being said, I've considered going the regional route, even at age 50. But more than likely I'm going the CFI route, because I love flying and enjoy teaching, and with a retirement I can afford to do it. Maybe I'll go fly my friends Super DC-3 in Alaska, who knows, but I do know I'll be flying something.

Best of luck
Bill