Do I have a future in aviation

[Red-Baron]

Hi,

yes, that's the question, "do I have a future in aviation". I assume I'm probably not the only one asking himself this question, especially at an age of 36 and most of all when it comes to the salary (present, as a CFI, and future, as a regional pilot). I got my CPL back in 2002 and in 2003 I got my CFI+I, and since then I've been out of aviation. Last year in Dec. I got my flight review and IPC, and recently got a full time job as a CFI - I wish this would have happened a few years earlier!

So it looks like that everything seems to be just fine. But to be honest, I kind a noticed that I don't have the enthusiasm and motivation anymore which I had when I got my CPL and CFI, especially considering my financial situation. Currently I'm making around 1500 - 1600 net a month, and as you can imagine that's not really a lot in CA. I was thinking about doing some freelancing on the weekends (which means on my day-off), but this would mean that I don't have any free time at all.

Now I could say, okay it's only temporary and I'll be moving on to a commercial job (which basically means moving on to the regionals) and as (probably) everybody knows, that's not really an improvement at all. Most regionals pay between 18k to 20k a year, which is pretty much the same as what I get right now, and the working conditions are even worse (I'm just thinking about these so called "camping trips" where the pilots sleep in the cockpit) and for 1500 bucks a month I definitely not going to put up with that.

The point is, that I've got a pretty good job offer (overseas in Europe) I'd be making 4500$ a month (net!!! after tax!! and that's even in Europe way above average) and a benefit package, which (probably) not even a US-government employee gets. Just to mention, annually 25 days of paid vacation.

I did some research and I figured out, that it'll take me probably many, many years until I'll reach that pay-level in the aviation industry (if I ever reach it). Europe wouldn't be a great deal for me, since I was born there and lived pretty much most of my life over there.

I mean if I'd be making better money, or at least if the regionals would be paying their pilots better, I'd say a minimum of 30k a year to start with (and I believe most of you fellow aviators do agree on that) I'd definitely stay in the aviation business, without a doubt! But under the given circumstances, I'm a bit concerned regarding my future in this business.

What do you guys think? Any input/feedback and/or opinions are appreciated!

[tpaRob]

That's pretty much why I started reading JC's. I came looking for the same answer. I'm not sure I have found it yet. If I decide to fly professionally (I am 39) it's not going to be for the money. My kids are grown.. but, still living with me (for now). I am single, so no nagging wife (sorry non-nagging wives). All I would have to do is find a cheaper place and I would be set. I am trying to get everything done with no debt while paying off my debts. I am giving myself 1 year to make up my mind and see where I stand.

[KC Jake]

It seems to me that you've already made your decision. You speak poorly of the aviation industry and happily about the job in Europe. If you don't feel very enthused about aviation, I'd say stay away from it.

[88MPH]

Originally Posted by Red-Baron

Hi,

yes, that's the question, "do I have a future in aviation". I assume I'm probably not the only one asking himself this question, especially at an age of 36 and most of all when it comes to the salary (present, as a CFI, and future, as a regional pilot). I got my CPL back in 2002 and in 2003 I got my CFI+I, and since then I've been out of aviation. Last year in Dec. I got my flight review and IPC, and recently got a full time job as a CFI - I wish this would have happened a few years earlier!

So it looks like that everything seems to be just fine. But to be honest, I kind a noticed that I don't have the enthusiasm and motivation anymore which I had when I got my CPL and CFI, especially considering my financial situation. Currently I'm making around 1500 - 1600 net a month, and as you can imagine that's not really a lot in CA. I was thinking about doing some freelancing on the weekends (which means on my day-off), but this would mean that I don't have any free time at all.

Now I could say, okay it's only temporary and I'll be moving on to a commercial job (which basically means moving on to the regionals) and as (probably) everybody knows, that's not really an improvement at all. Most regionals pay between 18k to 20k a year, which is pretty much the same as what I get right now, and the working conditions are even worse (I'm just thinking about these so called "camping trips" where the pilots sleep in the cockpit) and for 1500 bucks a month I definitely not going to put up with that.

The point is, that I've got a pretty god job offer (overseas in Europe) I'd be making 4500$ a month (net!!! after tax!! and that's even in Europe way above average) and a benefit package, which (probably) not even a US-government employee gets. Just to mention, annually 25 days of paid vacation.

I did some research and I figured out, that it'll take me probably many, many years until I'll reach that pay-level in the aviation industry (if I ever reach it). Europe wouldn't be a great deal for me, since I was born there and lived pretty much most of my life over there.

I mean if I'd be making better money, or at least if the regionals would be paying their pilots better, I'd say a minimum of 30k a year to start with (and I believe most of you fellow aviators do agree on that) I'd definitely stay in the aviation business, without a doubt! But under the given circumstances, I'm a bit concerned regarding my future in this business.

What do you guys think? Any input/feedback and/or opinions are appreciated!

Wanna trade lives?

[jettison IT]

I started instructing at about 36 and at 38 I got my first regional job. Once I got in things started happening real quick. Some of the guys in my class got hired with the majors within 2 years. Your only 36 you have almost 30 years of airline flying ahead of you, I'd say you have a long career in front of you if you choose. Even If you stay with the regionals, yeah the pay kinda sucks at first but your gonna make captain and you can make a decent living on captain's pay. If you get on with a good regional maybe you'll decide to stay there, not everybody wants to fly with the majors. I'v been exactly where you are today and I say you have a great career right there in front of you, I went for it and it paid off alot quicker than I imagined. Good Luck. By the way , there were two guys in my class in there mid forties.

[TexasFlyer]

Follow what your "gut" tells you. And then if things still are not right, it's never too late to try something else.

[jettison IT]

oh another thing, I dont know what kind of job offer you got in Europe or even if its a flying job, but this is for sure, if you a take a job because the pay is decent then great, but through experience I'v learned that once aviation is in your blood it stays there forever. Aways keep your CFI current you'll never know when you need it.

[doog]

Well... what are your alternative options?

[Red-Baron]

Hello all,

first of all thank you so much for your opinions, I really appreciate!!!

@ KC Jake:
I believe without enthusiasm I probably wouldn't have made it all the way up to CFI and CFII, but unfortunately enthusiasm won't pay my bills!


@jettison IT:

but through experience I'v learned that once aviation is in your blood it stays there forever. Aways keep your CFI current you'll never know when you need it.

That is absolutely true!!!!!!! And that's why I kept my CFI current over the past years and I'll continue to do so!!!!


@ all:

Regarding the job offer in Europe, it's Lufthansa, major German carrier, but it's not a flying job (unfortunately) it's an office job, keeping their electronic IFR Charts and FMC Database up to date. I have to confess, I'm not really an office person (I'd rather be flying), and I don't have the intension doing this job for the rest of my life, at some point I'd probably can't stand it anymore. But on the other hand, I must say, without being in aviation I'd have never been offered this job.

But, and here comes the story behind it.

I was planning of doing this job for a couple of years, to save some money and to support my parents, since both are retired now (83 and 69) and they are struggling to make a living, because their pension is pretty low - they won't tell me of course, but I know it. And for me it's really sad to see this. They always supported me a lot, without them it probably wouldn't have been possible for me to become a pilot.

This Lufthansa Job also includes free travel privileges for employees and their family-members, with Lufthansa and a few other major international carriers, I thought this would be a great opportunity for my parents to go and see the world, and enjoy life as long as their health permits.

Somehow I have the feeling, that there is something or somebody telling me: "it's time to say thank you, hurry up, there is not much time left."

On the other hand, I'm aware of that this might be my last chance to get back into aviation again, because the longer you are out of doing something (no matter what), the more difficult it is to get back into it.

I have a total of about 600 hr and around 60 hr of multi time (but I haven't been flying for the last five years, mainly due to a health issue which kept me from flying), I was planning to work as a CFI for about six month or so and then try to get a job with the regionals, get 1500 hr on a multi-crew airplane, apply for the JAA License and go back to Europe (as mentioned earlier, my entire family and all of my friends live in Europe, my father was US-Soldier who participated in D-Day, the Vietnam and Korea war and afterwards was stationed in Europe most of the time and upon retirement from active duty decided to stay there).

But this would mean, make a living on (about) 1500$ for the next two years or so (which is not an easy task in CA, currently I have absolutely no financial reserves left), and being unable to support my parents which makes me feel rather bad, since they've done so much for me!

The final question is, what makes me happier in the long run! I'm aware of, that in the long term I'll probably have the better opportunities in the aviation business.

Sorry for the long post, and thanks for reading it! I really appreciate! And once again, tanks for your opinions! If you'd like to add any further comments or opinions you a very welcome to do so!!!!

[Boris Badenov]

baron: tough spot. Would it be at all possible to take the Lufthansa job and work on your JAA conversion while working in Germany? Maybe wind up instructing or even flying charters on the weekends over there? I've met a number of european expats in flying and the consensus seems to be that flying is even more "who you know not what you know" than it is here. Combine that with the much lower average hours of pilots in the EU and the networking you could do at Lufthansa, and maybe you could have your cake and eat it too? That said, imho, it's never too late to fly, but you only get one set of parents. I wish I'd had more time with mine and done more to make the older years better. I'm sure you'll know what to do when the time comes to make a decision. Viel gluck!

[jettison IT]

I bet your Dad can tell you some great stories about some of the experiences in his life. I'd like to meet him ( survived three wars, Wow ).
I applaud you for holding your parents in such high regard, you just don't see that very often these days.
I'm sure you'll make the right decision and whatever it is theres no doubt in my mind you'll be very successful at it. Take care.

[BillErvin]

I saw somewhere that Lufthansa was looking for CFI's at their school here in the states. Might be a good angle into a better flying job.

The link I found was www.ATCA.net also 623.932.1600 This was out of the March AOPA Flight Training Mag. Don't know if they are still looking or not, I think they are just a contract school working with Lufthansa, they do mention flight benefits in the ad though?



Bill

[Red-Baron]

Thanks again for your feedback guys! I really appreciate your support!

Well, sometimes it's not easy at all to make a decision, I decided to give myself some additional time to make up my mind, until the end of this month, that should be sufficient.

@Boris:

Would it be at all possible to take the Lufthansa job and work on your JAA conversion while working in Germany?

Oh yes, that'd be possible! But it would take me a while, since the conversion is quite an extensive affair, probably at least one year, or even longer. But as you said correctly, the average minimums for pilots to get a commercial job in den EU are by far lower as they are in the US, so I'd probably have a job over there as soon as I finish the conversion!

Maybe wind up instructing or even flying charters on the weekends over there?

That is pretty much what I'm planning to do. It doesn't take much to get my JAA PPL, and in the EU you can get your (PPL) Instructor if you have at least 150 hr of PIC as a PPL. So this would be a good opportunity for me to keep flying, build some flight time (even tough it wont be much, because I'd be only flying on the weekends) but most of all I don't have to pay for it, because in Europe flying is pretty expensive (e.g. one hour in a C-172 including instruction is about 390 USD!!! - this dose not include the landing fees!!!)

And as you said, networking is a big part of getting a job in the aviation industry, no matter where you are.

Viel gluck!

Dankeschön ;-)


@jettison IT

I bet your Dad can tell you some great stories about some of the experiences in his life. I'd like to meet him ( survived three wars, Wow ).

Oh yes, without a doubt he definitely gained a lot of experience during he's life! He didn't talk much about the war(s) when he was younger, but now as he gets older he starts talking, but mostly about the "funny" things he experienced.

I'm sure you'll make the right decision and whatever it is theres no doubt in my mind you'll be very successful at it. Take care.

I hope so too! Thank you!


@BillErvin

I saw somewhere that Lufthansa was looking for CFI's at their school here in the states. Might be a good angle into a better flying job.

Thanks for the info! I do know that LH is looking for instructors, and the pay and benefits are pretty good, but they require 200 hr of dual given which I don't have yet. Their website is down for quite a while now, or it won't load when you try to reach it, it takes for ever.


Thank you very much, and may the future will be bright and shinny for all of us!!!!

PS. I'll let you guys know how I decided and how I'm doing, hopefully everything will turn out to be just fine!

[Hypersonic_Wings]

Why don't you accept the offer from Lufthansa and you can build up your PIC time on the side. After the JAA conversion and having accumulated enough hours then you can be a part-time CFI. Then you'll have two incomes to support your parents. I think it's cool that your dad was a part of WWII. Best of luck to you.

[BugSmasher]

Red-Baron, your posts were a great read, and your devotion to your folks is inspiring.

If airline flying is where your heart is, then is there a way you can telecommute in your profession? It might make your layovers and reserve time lucrative. I'm banking on telecommuting to supplement flying income when I'm hirable.

JAA ATPL conversions/type ratings are tough in terms of time and money, but if (i) the job at LH could pay/assist with that, and (ii) if you have an EU passport through your fam, you could be in business with $4K or more/month as a year 1 FO in the EU. Plus, you'd have the enviable capability of being able to fly professionally in two of the largest pilot markets.

If you're not solely interested in airline flying, do you know which other companies in your industry have flight departments? There are pilots who both work in the office and fly corporate AC for the same company - and derive income from both sources.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.